Tier List Speculation

[nimigoha]

While you can swat both off with a hitbox quite easily, Teleport is much faster than QA, M2's Nair covers a huge area so you don't have to be nearly as precise, and Teleport can go in any direction while to connect out of QA your opponent needs to be close to or on the ground.

I know that 'it's difficult to use' is really bad reasoning for something good to be kept in, but QAC is a a lot harder than just jump>teleport>press a>hover cancel into followup.

 

[Tagxy]

Lunchables wasn't saying QAC=M2 Hover, he's saying that that logic applies to everything. Any form of mobility in this game is technically beaten by hitting them out of it. If we're theory crafting here, if you can wreck QAC with a well place hitbox, you can wreck m2hover nair with one two, and m2 hover nair is confirmed for busted.

Then it was a pointless statement to make since clearly its other attributes that need to be considered.

This dragged on longer than it should have, but the mistake was lunchables implicitly drawing too much similarity between both moves just because they move from point A to B, and then assuming I had a similar misconception when stating how it was countered. QAC allows for a few smart mix-ups, but is otherwise fairly limited and easy to react to and predict, even moreso when familiar with it. Such massive differences from Teleport make knocking pikachu out of QA an easy process unless the pikachu himself has a very solid read.

 

[Foo]

While you can swat both off with a hitbox quite easily, Teleport is much faster than QA, M2's Nair covers a huge area so you don't have to be nearly as precise, and Teleport can go in any direction while to connect out of QA your opponent needs to be close to or on the ground.

I know that 'it's difficult to use' is really bad reasoning for something good to be kept in, but QAC is a a lot harder than just jump>teleport>press a>hover cancel into followup.

No one said QAC is better than M2 TP hover nair, just that if his logic was correct, m2 TP wouldn't be busted, but it is. Also, harder does not equal worse, otherwise fox is bottom tier.

 

[nimigoha]

No one said QAC is better than M2 TP hover nair, just that if his logic was correct, m2 TP wouldn't be busted, but it is. Also, harder does not equal worse, otherwise fox is bottom tier.

I'm definitely not saying that QAC is better than hover hair.

QAC and Telehover are similar ideas: quickly close a gap and throw out a hitbox in a way that has multiple utilities. QAC is much harder, but it is also not as good. Not that one is causing the other. If Telehover was harder than QAC but still better, I wouldn't say that it being hard is what's making it good, or draw any relationship out of it.

But if you made a Fox clone where doing an upthrow automatically read DI and followed with a perfect Uair, and shining a shield would turn on an automatic multishine until your opponent's shield broke, and getting hit while in shield triggered a perfect waveshine OOS, then original Fox would be worse. Those are ridiculous extreme examples, but if you're comparing two identical things where one is harder to pull off, it's inherently worse.

But we can't really do that with QAC = Telehover because they're super different.

 

[Foo]

I'm definitely not saying that QAC is better than hover hair.

QAC and Telehover are similar ideas: quickly close a gap and throw out a hitbox in a way that has multiple utilities. QAC is much harder, but it is also not as good. Not that one is causing the other. If Telehover was harder than QAC but still better, I wouldn't say that it being hard is what's making it good, or draw any relationship out of it.

But if you made a Fox clone where doing an upthrow automatically read DI and followed with a perfect Uair, and shining a shield would turn on an automatic multishine until your opponent's shield broke, and getting hit while in shield triggered a perfect waveshine OOS, then original Fox would be worse. Those are ridiculous extreme examples, but if you're comparing two identical things where one is harder to pull off, it's inherently worse.

But we can't really do that with QAC = Telehover because they're super different.

You were basing your point on QAC<Telehover, so I replied that no one thinks the contrary; it's irrelevant to his point. You literally argued against every point that I tried to make clear I WASN'T making.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The differences between them, while important in terms of balance, are irrelevant in this situation. ANY MOBILITY OPTION IN THE ENTIRE GAME, NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR BAD, can be theoretically countered by placing a hitbox in the right spot, but it's is inhuman to do so consistently for QAC OR telehover because it involes perfect execution and a perfect read. What you said about QAC could also apply to wave dashing, quickdraw, luigi rocket, zelda teleport, extreme speed etc. All of those have varying levels of powers, but if QAC is easily defeated by hitting him out of it, like was suggested, then they are ALL bad. Since they aren't all bad (or any of them, really), the logic is faulty.

Yes, telehover is not equal to QAC, nor is QAC better. They are both MOBILITY options, and so we compare them. Apples and oranges are different, but they both have skin, so we can compare the skin.

 

[Tagxy]

Youre making a similar mistake and ignoring a significant amount of attributes. Those are all heavily varied options for many many different reasons. I edited my last post to clarify that more, reread that if you wish to respond.

 

[Boiko]

le ripple leaks
le f*cked up

Edit: Someone put this on the pm subreddit, pretty cool video showing off how bad QAC is

Man I wish I was as good as tagxy

@Ya Boy GP play Pikachu. I'm sure you could do this stuff ez money.

 

[nimigoha]

If you think that beating QAC requires 'inhuman perfect reads and execution' then I'm not really sure how to respond. It's a very telegraphed move, much more so than Telehover. With M2 you can just SH Shadow Ball until your opponent commits to an approach or block then SH Teleport. QAC doesn't have anything remotely similar to that kind of bait and punish.

>All of those have varying levels of powers, but if QAC is easily defeated by hitting him out of it, like was suggested, then they are ALL bad.

That's a very blatant generalization. They are all movement options with varying strengths and weaknesses, but just because one is easy to swat it means they all suck? I lost my ticket for that train of thought. Also we're not talking about those other 'approaches' but to put it to bed, Telehover is vastly better than all of them.

>Yes, telehover is not equal to QAC, nor is QAC better.

So you're agreeing that QAC is worse than Telehover, so we're on the same page.

>Apples and oranges are different, but they both have skin, so we can compare the skin.

:W

This is a weak argument by analogy that's grossly oversimplifying the difference between QAC and Telehover.

 

[Paradoxium]

I just hope we don't end up getting rid of things like QaC and qd, those are so fun

 

[Boiko]

If you think that beating QAC requires 'inhuman perfect reads and execution' then I'm not really sure how to respond. It's a very telegraphed move, much more so than Telehover. With M2 you can just SH Shadow Ball until your opponent commits to an approach or block then SH Teleport. QAC doesn't have anything remotely similar to that kind of bait and punish.

If only Pikachu had a spammable projectile that either forces an opponent to shield or jump. :|

 

[Kaeldiar]

If only Pikachu had a spammable projectile that either forces an opponent to shield or jump. :|

That's a lot of talk coming from PK Fire

EDIT: Of course, PK Fire is crucial to Ness's game right now. It allows him to zone effectively and get a few easy combo starters. Sans-PK Fire, Ness would be, to quote a Ness-main friend of mine, "booty cheeks"

 

[Boiko]

That's a lot of talk coming from PK Fire

EDIT: Of course, PK Fire is crucial to Ness's game right now. It allows him to zone effectively and get a few easy combo starters. Sans-PK Fire, Ness would be, to quote a Ness-main friend of mine, "booty cheeks"

LOLOL got 'em.

PK Fire is bad though, real talk.

 

[Paradoxium]

If only Pikachu had a spammable projectile that either forces an opponent to shield or jump. :|

Thats the type of thing I want to avoid, besides you can run with his thunder jolt anyways it isn't worthless like most people make it out to be. It has way less ending lag then it did in Melee.

I feel like spammable projectiles only belong on characters with ****ty movement

Well actually there is also toonlink who is fast and has projectiles, so I have no clue what im talking about lol

 

[Player -0]

QAC has hitboxes and hurtboxes during it while teleport doesn't. QA is a bit more flexible to the place you can go (you have to "end" on the ground) but teleport can end in the air and has hover + Nair/Bair/Command Grab.

 

[Soft Serve]

Wait
how is a like 15 frame start up move that can go in any direction and cancelable into wavelands at almost any position telegraphed.

This last page has been a really silly argument, if you really think that pkas qac needs to be nerfed I don't even know.
Yeah, a lit of moves can easily intercept it and leave pika without jumps if they get predictable. Used sparingly it's a crazy mix up tool. Almost like every other movement special in the game.

If qac was on someone else I could see it being a huge problem, or if thunderjolt was a lot better it could cause a lot of problems.

Qac platform movement is cool, but like, just hit it. Make a guess onto which platform pika is going to (there's lIke 2 choices) throw a move out from under the platform, if it misses no biggy, if it hits you are juggling pika with no jumps.

 

[Foo]

@ nimigoha Ok, you are REALLY bad at interpreting what I'm trying to say, or you are just straw manning me. Here is what I'm saying, in as clear a way as I can manage *Clears Throat*


1. I said to do it CONSISTENTLY. As in, to punish it so often that it is a poor option for the pikachu player. With ANY mobility option in the game, IF you predict where your opponent is going to be, you can punish them if you space properly. This is true of every single mobility option in the game, and quick attack is no exception. However, it is nowhere near slow enough to simply react to wherever pikachu is going, and punishing him for it. Unless pikachu uses it in a really stupid way, you have to get a hard read.

2. Finally, you understood I'm not saying QAC is better.

3. This is just a metaphor to try and help you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[robosteven]

Completely unrelated to what's currently being discussed, but do you guys think the impending recovery nerfs (and incredibly likely up-throw nerf) will be enough for Lucas or does he need more adjustments to his onstage game?

also what's wrong with his 2.5 bair and dair?

I was under the impression that his current bair and dair were some of the best moves in the game, and I really liked his 2.5 bair and dair, the bair especially.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

With M2 you can just SH Shadow Ball until your opponent commits to an approach or block then SH Teleport. QAC doesn't have anything remotely similar to that kind of bait and punish.

TP is not fast enough to punish shieldstun off of shadow ball (I believe even fully charged?). Most characters have nair OoS to beat M2's nair/fair preemptively, at the very least, and it's a lot more dangerous for M2 to keep up the pressure string if he starts it with crossup bair or shadowball.
Basically the only place TP can't threaten is where M2 is currently standing, so I guess you're implying it's an escape against approaches/pressure? That's fair enough, I think.
TP is still an incredible option in a lot of different situations, it's just rarely useful in such a flowchart manner.

 

[1FD]

If qac was on someone else I could see it being a huge problem, or if thunderjolt was a lot better it could cause a lot of problems.

Give Ganon TP Hover Ballz and M2 is still better.


I wanna see IC's without CGs but with TP and Hover for sick doublecharacter neutral crazy stupidity

 

[Deleted member]

QA already has limited ability to be mixed up if you remove it entirely it may as well not exist.

nothing says "strict tactical advantage" like removing a major mobility mechanic.

ice cream + forehead

 

[DMG]

Umbreon, you might want HeadOn instead. Apply directly to the forehead

 

[SpiderMad]

He's going the all natural route

 

[DMG]

I bet his Ice Cream wasn't even Gluten Free

 

[Ripple]

but it was low in sodium

 

[1FD]

I make icecream by blending frozen bananas and berries and plums with some cacao and honey
Ain't nothing but raw fruits and sweets
da bess

 

[trash?]

pikachu gets away with a silly projectile + silly QAC tricks because the rest of pikachu is still pikachu

he has a tiny tail and baby feet for kicking, let him have a goofy and useful mobility option at the very least

 

[TheGravyTrain]

How is jolt silly? It feels like it doesn't get followups, but is useful in edgegaurding and at long distances for damage. Seems fine to me.

 

[Soft Serve]

And then ice cream fell out of my pockets and spilled out all over the place

 

[trash?]

because it comes out quickly, takes a good amount of distance and the angle you throw them out makes them relatively safe

but again, rest of pikachu is pikachu, so you're not going all mario on your opponent with them

 

[DMG]

Axe goes all Fox on people with Pika, I dunno if I can trust u

 

[Vashimus]

pikachu gets away with a silly projectile + silly QAC tricks because the rest of pikachu is still pikachu

he has a tiny tail and baby feet for kicking, let him have a goofy and useful mobility option at the very least

Basically this. Pikachu ain't winning any awards for his approach otherwise, so I say let the rat be.

And Thunder Jolt isn't even that good a projectile anyway. Unless Pika somehow gets some kind of lag reduction and becomes another Mario.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm still gonna say

People are seriously complaining about Pikachu.

Did people really get that tired of complaining about that quick?

Its funny y'all complain about Pikachu, and yet are all better than him.

 

[Phan7om]

Theres a difference between complaining about the character, basically, as a whole; and complaining about one move that a character has that could be made better. How good the character is has nothing to do with it.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really want to be rude, but... tagxy

you're bad, get better.

 

[Vashimus]

I'm still gonna say

People are seriously complaining about Pikachu.

Did people really get that tired of complaining about that quick?

Just to play devil's advocate, let's be real here. Most of those characters are likely gonna receive some sort of changes next release anyway. Complaining about them and saying they're very strong at this point is just preaching to the choir.

 

[Deleted member]

We all understand that those characters have design problems and they've been addressed/will be addressed in 3.5 (blogposts n' stuff)

After 9 months of complaining about them, we want to talk about other dumb things. EXCEPT FOR QAC, thats perfectly balanced and pikachu is actually the worst character. tagxy will be best pm player in 3.5

unny y'all complain about Pikachu, and yet are all better than him.

Btw, its less about who is actually better than him and more of does his **** actually make sense.

Fun Fact: in 2.6, a lot of us were complaining about **** like ivysaur and metaknight, while characters like lucas are basically the same as they are in 3.02. Some characters fly under the radar, and exploring all of them is better than just letting them pass off because "Oh, some characters are better"

 

[Tagxy]

nothing says "strict tactical advantage" like removing a major mobility mechanic.

ice cream + forehead

You misinterpreted what I said, but whatever. Get good sons, we out

 

[1FD]

Locally (me, tenki, crisp, ambios, bamesy, v, and a bunch MORE players that nobody has ever heard about) have had a local tier list with Lucas as #1 since the first couple months of 2.1

Under radar my ***

I still think lucas's look like this drunk when they play
They'll be better when they're not drunk anymore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgM2LTqfByc

 

[RelaxAlax]

Thing with Lucas is he took time to be stupid.

He's the least stupid stupid character in PM, I'd say. He's all floaty with Magnet tricks, just a few little tweaks and the lil guys good..

 

[1FD]

Thing with Lucas is he took time to be stupid.

He's the least stupid stupid character in PM, I'd say. He's all floaty with Magnet tricks, just a few little tweaks and the lil guys good..

nopenopenopenopenopenope

Easy to see he's stupid, need 1 min for that

He's as stupid as the others with those hitboxes and speed things mixed in
Maybe it's easy to say others are stupider when it's not the CHARACTER ITSELF AS A WHOLE that's stupid so you can actually peg it to something on them (TP or overall solid beastliness or speed and lasers) but it doesn't make Lucas's stupidity any less obviously stupid. We'd all have to be pretty stupid to miss that. Time to see stupidity =/= time it takes people to play properly. The character doesn't need uthrow and bair/dair or pkfreeze and his punish and neutral is still as overwhelming on a MECHANICAL/TECHNICAL/OBJECTIVE level in terms of stupidity than someone like Ivy/Zelda's neutrals or DK/Pit's punishes are, it's just more fun to fight against since it's a little more interacty like a Fox polarity or something instead.