Tier List Speculation

[RelaxAlax]

Yo he's stupid don't get me wrong.

I said he's the least stupid out of the stupid tier. To put it more clear, whats the different between him and Mario, whos easier to succeed with, and for what reasons? I don't disagree with you, I just think there are stupider things that are stupid and he has some stupid stuff but like atleast he's technical about it. Cept rope snake lol that gummy worm ass ***** is stupid.

I feel like when I play against him I'm not so mad but if I play, idk Mario and Ivy i'm like

"U stupid"
"No im not"
"Whats 9 plus 10"
"21"
"You Stupid"

This is a stupid conversation.

 

[1FD]

That's just this part

it's just more fun to fight against since it's a little more interacty.

You might say he's less stupid/feels less stupid/not call him stupid when you're fighting him, but he's more observably stupid than Mario/Ivy ever could be no matter how uninteracting and stupid it is to fight them.
They ruin fun. Lucas makes fun.
Stupid isn't parallel to fun, and Lucas has more of both, so he's deceiving.
Example, give him fireballs, ivy bair, and all the other stuff that makes those characters stupid, and the stupidest parts of him will still be the Lucas-originated parts.

 

[MLGF]

OK guys, this has been all fun and games.
But Ike, my main, is clearly trash. Let's talk about ways to buff my character specifically.

Seriously though, I think the characters that are "problems" have been well established by now. Defensive characters with mindless neutrals like Pill Spam and such are going away hopefully. Let's all calm down and quit complaining about characters with mobility tools.

Although, I feel Chu's QaC may be nerfed solely on the basic that it makes his recovery wicked safe, which is a thing to avoid as of now and not on the basic that QaC is a broken mobility tool.

 

[Player -0]

Charizard is better than Pikachu?

 

[1FD]

Player-0 that would be a no
MLGF that would be a yeah

My bias may be too stonk here but I feel like Ike is the only character that actually is someone I would be held back by if I were to get better (which will happen hopefully lol) and it's been that way for a while. As I get better, I feel Ike is just... not as good as the other characters. I 'get' Ike too, more than like... Kirby and stuff... but he feels like the weakest of all the characters I play.

Bias though
I want Ike borkne

I guess add that I think Ike is pretty close to perfect and it's more like Kirby's dthrow should be nerfed instead of him buffed. Same with basically every char that's too good at like... a stupid thing.

 

[trash?]

I can't really see ike as having anything less than massive potential, tbh. QD shenanigans could theoretically work as hardcore as waveshines do now, with the right hands

@ SpiderMad has good ike techskill, gotta teach them peoples

 

[DMG]

It's worse than waveshines though, kinda, sorta

 

[1FD]

He's for sure loaded with variation and stuff with QD and solid tools to work with from grabs to nairs to whatever, but he's still a luggy character outside of niche highmovement bursts in nichy positions.

I'm not sure techskill has much to do with it, QD stuff really isn't that complex or defs not difficult.

Generally I tend to do a lot of fancy stuff and lose to someone who's just genius with WDs at the right spots at the right times out of their QD's into simple moves or DDs into neutral again or something. This goes for every char/etc, but Ike tech isn't a thing holding Ike back. This ain't Yoshi.
I'm not overly good but the only Ike better than me that I've faced is naus and even though he can play the character WAY fancier than me, he always keeps it simple and just efficient and accurate. There's those times where he'll hit me with an aerial QD through a platform and off stage, then QD into the stage to wall jump Fair me or something, but the application of the QD shinanegans that are applied in things like neutral are way outshined by WD/DD/QD dancing game to catch someone with a well spaced sword tip or grab. Even in punishes this stuff is more benefitial and noncommitting than the Shinans he can do. This ain't Wolf.
The QD shinans aren't exactly 'under' evovled, they aren't maxed out, sure, but there's nothing hidden about it anymore. You kind of HAVE TO BE GOOD WITH QD STUFF to play Ike at all.
**** ain't bonus on top of an already solid char or something. This ain't Pika. (yeah I did that)

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ SpiderMad has good everything tech skill.

Also, I play Zard and am 420% sure he's better than Pika.

 

[1FD]

^we shall be disagurd bout pikazard

 

[JOE!]

Pikazard was banned by the pmbr before it was too late

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pikazard?
http://pokemon.alexonsager.net/25/6 ?

 

[Phan7om]

No guyss, Pikachu is one of the best in the game. He doesnt need any changes.
*Links vid of Axe vs SW at Evo*

 

[MLGF]

Player-0 that would be a no
MLGF that would be a yeah

My bias may be too stonk here but I feel like Ike is the only character that actually is someone I would be held back by if I were to get better (which will happen hopefully lol) and it's been that way for a while. As I get better, I feel Ike is just... not as good as the other characters. I 'get' Ike too, more than like... Kirby and stuff... but he feels like the weakest of all the characters I play.

Bias though
I want Ike borkne

I guess add that I think Ike is pretty close to perfect and it's more like Kirby's dthrow should be nerfed instead of him buffed. Same with basically every char that's too good at like... a stupid thing.

Well, I just beat the best Mewtwo in my state with Ike today so... I mean that means nothing but I do think Ike can hang with some of the best characters... well some of them, single maining him is rough for sure.

IIke is just slightly below average currently and only because he has trouble beating projectiles.

If 3.5 is more aggro, Ike will be solid. I don't think he'll be top tier (he's easily pressured at times and reading a QD can hurt him badly) but he'll be a strong character if he remains mostly unchanged and judging from what's the word on the street he will be, by then he'll be a force of nature in the right hands... or dominated badly in the wrong hands.
Kinda like Falcon and Marth had a baby.

And here comes the fanfics.

 

[JOE!]

Trouble with projectiles is either an oddly common weakness, or there are too many stellar projectiles. Not sure which...

 

[Soft Serve]

I'd be really happy if every projectile got nerfed to the ground. If my character has a projectile and I dont know what to do in neutral, almost always the corrrect answer is throw out the projectile because they are all godlike
I dont even think wolf's blasters are that great but they still feel like a crutch sometimes because they are almost always the better option than approaching.
Good projectiles aren't bad, but I think they should be toned down to be closer to Pika's than falco lasers

 

[SpiderMad]

Diddy can handle fireballs decently with Bairs and Stellar use of Peanut gun WL/AGT Banana tandem.

But yeah, you're pry making the game closer to both Melee and Third Strike by reducing the items/projectiles significance. Thing is there's a lot of people out there that prefer the SF2/SF4 play of projectiles being super significant where in Third Strike they're more niche.

But I also feel like grab'able items offer more play. But people still feel too many characters have bad toss animations, so you can only get so much out of half the cast. Not that people have come closing to trying.

Like I was watching Scythe vs Kirkq, he had decent item play but there's always so much not there. When you got the top near the edge you can instant AGT where instead he played around it and I think did a DJ over it into some aerial (aside from also you could do a ledge DJ Blaster WL catch on the Top.. like this video but you don't have to have the item in hand just near you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87G-nPP4Njo&list=UUC_duOivBOekU6LS3_8w25A#t=68 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yZaBPp5ZF0#t=70

 

[1FD]

Does Ike really handle aggro better than camp?
He's so... luggy
I haz trubz at either extreme

 

[SpiderMad]

Does Ike really handle aggro better than camp?
He's so... luggy
I haz trubz at either extreme

ML said 3.5 increasing Ike's own capability to be more Aggro when projectiles are nerfed. Inferring he thinks he has more trouble with camp. He has trouble at either extreme like you said. Characters like Mario and Pit just pulverize him for being a combo sack, who has aerials currently hard to make safe on shield or hit; that's where AC ones come in.

 

[GeZ]

I think the projectile game can be a bit burdenous where it stands right now, but something I realized is that Diddy (who I used to hate fighting) is actually really fun for me to fight now just because his projectile game is so interactive. WD to grab bananas/ catch peanuts can really make the neutral this weird momentum based thing where you and your opponent constantly switch from defense to offense and vice versa depending on who has what, which is really fun for me.

The rest of the projectile game seems a little omnipresent to me, but I think/ hope 3.5 will alleviate a lot of these issues.

 

[Soft Serve]

I think the projectile game can be a bit burdenous where it stands right now, but something I realized is that Diddy (who I used to hate fighting) is actually really fun for me to fight now just because his projectile game is so interactive. WD to grab bananas/ catch peanuts can really make the neutral this weird momentum based thing where you and your opponent constantly switch from defense to offense and vice versa depending on who has what, which is really fun for me.

The rest of the projectile game seems a little omnipresent to me, but I think/ hope 3.5 will alleviate a lot of these issues.

Diddy mains have been saying this since like 2.5 lol
bananas are still too strong but they are fun for whoever has control of them.

 

[Foo]

I think the problem with projectiles in this game is how brainless they tend to be. Imagine if marth fair was used by short hop double fairing over and over and over. Projectiles should be more like regular moves, where they have a time and place to be used, but spamming them in neutral gets you very little.

This'll sound very bad, but hear me out. I think projectiles should act more like Link's boomerangs and bombs, BUT (please don't lose me yet) less powerful than boomerang. If boomerang didn't cover space for as long, and couldn't be used as frequently, I think it'd be a great projectile because it rewards you for reading a grounded approach if they don't block it. Bomb is slow to setup, but if you use it properly, it can lead into a punish very well.

I think projectiles shouldn't shut down an approach option, but rather punish that approach option if you predict it. This would mean projectiles would be much less spammable, but much more rewarding on hit. That way you can't spam them and make the game unfun, but you can convert off hitting them better.

 

[1FD]

^Or... you know..... more diversity is good too.
Why is it that like every 5th post you make (Foo) seems to be about trying to normalize every character to be less unique?
lol

 

[mimgrim]

If people still have a problem with Nanners then the best thing to do would probably be to give them the Smash 4 treatment, only 1 which doesn't stay out as long and will dissapear when it hits the ground after it is thrown twice and disappears on hit. It's still a good tool for Diddy, but it can't reasonably be called obnoxious anymore.

Still think Nanners are fine as is though.

 

[GeZ]

With the recovery nerfs to the top tiers, it makes banana momentum much more important for the other character too. Like, messing up Diddys sweet spot with a banana makes punishing the Up B much more reasonable, because of the recovery changes.

 

[1FD]

2 random barrells instead of 1 from hitting him out of Upb says otherwise

plz do eeeet pmdt

 

[Foo]

^Or... you know..... more diversity is good too.
Why is it that like every 5th post you make (Foo) seems to be about trying to normalize every character to be less unique?
lol

It's not normalizing characters, it's that I suggest game design philosophies rather than just character nerfs of buffs. It's in a similar vein to an overall nerf to recoveries. My suggestion is just one potential alternative. While there could be plenty of diversity within that, there are other options as well to keep things diverse. I am fine with other existing projectiles like PK thunder, zss lasers, fox lasers, squirtle down-b, samus charge shot, rob down b, pikmin, toon link projectiles, etc*. because they all have uses, but aren't viable to spam (with the slight exception of fox laser, but that doesn't limit options). I simply gave one suggestion that could be used to fix spammy projectiles like fireball or projectiles with very skewed risk/reward like bananas.

*there are well designed projectiles I didn't list

 

[MLGF]

ML said 3.5 increasing Ike's own capability to be more Aggro when projectiles are nerfed. Inferring he thinks he has more trouble with camp. He has trouble at either extreme like you said. Characters like Mario and Pit just pulverize him for being a combo sack, who has aerials currently hard to make safe on shield or hit; that's where AC ones come in.

I mean yeah, I feel like when you throw out the stupid camp game of Mario/Pit/etc, Ike's biggest weakness/strength is that you need to be more aggro then your opponent.

 

[1FD]

No matter what happens to Bowser, Ike, TL, Kirby, Wolf, and any of my characters...
Don't touch my jabs PMDT
Don't touch my jabs
They my jabs and I love em

 

[Soft Serve]

No matter what happens to Bowser, Ike, TL, Kirby, Wolf, and any of my characters...
Don't touch my jabs PMDT
Don't touch my jabs
They my jabs and I love em

Wolf's third jab is so good
Because it has a huge lunge it can cross up shields. Multiple times I've done nair >jab string and they think they can grab me, but I end up behind them and just shine after I recover
I'd nerf it tbh

 

[1FD]

NO
Also initial jab is best too
Such for combos good
Nerf plx
buff buff faultcon punch for crossup Jump Punch combo

 

[MLGF]

Ike jabs.
Ike jabs everywhere.

 

[GP&B]

Ike jab is insane man. It makes me sick that it doesn't work in 4 anymore.

 

[MLGF]

Of course, Ike was clearly OP in Brawl so the nerf was clearly needed.

 

[GP&B]

Supposedly, it was a mechanical change overall that affects everyone. Not 100% sure on that, but Ike just feels like extra poop in 4.

Except DTilt. Smash 4 Dtilt for 3.5 Ike pls. He'd be so stupid.

 

[TreK]

Why care about jabs when you can just press down ?

/is a Brawl Luigi player who's extremely salty about the lack of jab-upB in PM

 

[SpiderMad]

Lots of people don't do the Mango where when CF jabs you, you SDI up and jump. Also frame perfect shield grab might be able to grab Ike out of any of his jab in the string.

scar talks about it somewhere in here on BF I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROf0cius7KU#t=1049

 

[Paradoxium]

@ SpiderMad do you ever write this stuff down? I feel like you have an entire bank of knowledge stored somewhere and you occasionally leak some out to us.

 

[GeZ]

Yo Spidermad, is PM Depot you and some other people? Or are you unrelated?

 

[steelguttey]

im here to congratulate zelda to the new project m tier list discussion circlejerk hall of fame!