Tier List Speculation

[mimgrim]

Welp. Ganon got the hover. GG.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

hover uairs for edge guards I can see it now

 

[CORY]

http://smashboards.com/threads/janon-social-thread-we-bruce-lee-now.336099/page-24#post-17958226

how it worked when i played it. the basics shouldn't have changed.

HOVERDORF.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Omg you guys actually gave Ganondorf the hover

GG 100/10 perfect mod pack up we're done here Project M complete

 

[Ripple]

@ Hylian can I have control of this thread? okami hasn't been active in like 3 months

 

[Hylian]

If okami approves it sure.

 

[1FD]

So 3.5 DID add a new Zelda character
Ganon instead of Skullkid tho
Heard Ganon was gonna be in other games but was never complete
Glad he made it

Infinity - the how and vomit taunts are good too

 

[InfinityCollision]

Infinity - the how and vomit taunts are good too

Definitely. Wolf's option coverage with taunts is probably high tier or better, but his followups are poor because he can't cancel them.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Charizard's taunts are mid-tier at best :/

Ike I would say is top tier in terms of taunts, but I personally would appreciate him saying "You'll get no sympathy from me" during the OHKO a la Brawl Minus.

(Not really though that might be too unprofessional)

 

[Ogopogo]

Taunt cancels (and maaaaaaybe a little more % on his shines? pretty please?) is all Wolf honestly needs.

 

[jtm94]

Wolf is still largely undiscovered and has a vast amount of potential AS IS. Enough so that he may become a meta threat down the road, but we will cross that bridge when we get there.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What Wolf is potentially borken what

It's almost like shines are really f***ing stupid or something

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

cc wolf shine
why does his shine like not do poop against cc

 

[1FD]

Charizard's taunts are mid-tier at best :/

Ike I would say is top tier in terms of taunts, but I personally would appreciate him saying "You'll get no sympathy from me" during the OHKO a la Brawl Minus.

(Not really though that might be too unprofessional)

Just fyi
Every single kill I ever get (even if it means I get punished because I have to recover or something) with Ike, I do the down taunt where he crosses his arms, drop my controller, and cross my arms at the opponent.

Every single kill I've gotten with Ike every single time I've ever played him since I first picked him up.
Will never quit.
Will never surrender.

No jokes.
I have lost many games because of that taunt.


nameless, you just shine grab
whether shine or grab connects, you get followups, and his grabs > life
Wolf better not be buffed
omg
omg

 

[Ogopogo]

Double shine is all you can really do against CC. Or maybe shine grab.
Wolf's only aspect that is yet to be used to its full potential is his waveland out of blaster imo.

 

[1FD]

Double shine is all you can really do against CC. Or maybe shine grab.
Wolf's only aspect that is yet to be used to its full potential is his waveland out of blaster imo.

My brain melted
I am crying on the inside
My soul has burst into flame and checkered emotion
I shall forever be upset at the moment in time that passed in history in which I set my mind and body interaction into the action of reading and interpreting what it is that you have expressed in this realm of time and space and awareness of it.
Forever, this post will remain as 'existing at one time' and only with the passing of forever can it be lost, but even in its loss, the loss itself is laced with its tang of subtlety

 

[Foo]

I find it really funny when people say everything about a character is figured out except *relatively small trick* Ever stop to think that a character may not be figured out because we haven't discovered them fully yet? I mean, how many years did it take before people figured out falco could pillar pretty much anyone to death in melee?

I kinda hope someone saves that above post to quote it when Wolf is high/top tier because people figure out jank !@#$ like hitting guaranteed shine to shine to shorten side-b at any % or something dumb like that. Wolf has FAR too much jank to be figured out after such a short time. imo, in 20XX PM, he's god tier just above fox and falco ( who are bottom tier along with everyone else) because of shorten side-b.

 

[SpiderMad]

Blaster's AD/WL being the least explored/utilized is a statement I'd agree with, obviously not "only" though.

What's so good about shortening his side-b again?

Also I'm gonna reply to a couple or so @'s eventually

 

[Foo]

Blaster's AD/WL being the least explored/utilized is a statement I'd agree with, he just needed to take out the word "only"

What's so good about his shorten side-b again?

Also I'm gonna reply to a couple or so @'s eventually

Shorten side-b is good in theory because you could use it to confirm out of just about anything at just about any % if done frame perfectly. You hit a shine? That's a side-b, Dash attack? That's a side-b! You hit a down tilt? THAT'S A SIDE-B TOO! Normally you need to get them to higher %s to make side-b a viable kill move (because they need to be far away), but if you managed to shorten it, it would be more reliable. It would be harder to kill yourself and they would have less room to DI.

However, it is so frame tight that it's pretty much out of human capability. OR IS IT?!?!?

 

[Phan7om]

Thousands of tools are just waiting to be discovered by players, just very few people put in the time to look for them.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm actually not briefed on how it changes the hitboxes or anything lol, how much faster does it come out when you shorten it?

What exactly is so frame tight, and by how tight?

Try doing double platform laser on Yoshi's and give me your feel on its tightness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gBDctEu8Hg#t=14

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Mad ... do you like ... travel OoS at all? That Ike movement made me dizzy.

Also interesting laser wall setups from Wolf ... that and item + laser game. He's probably got better Diddy counterplay than is immediately apparent.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm actually not briefed on how it changes the hitboxes or anything lol, how much faster does it come out when you shorten it?

What exactly is so frame tight, and by how tight?

Try doing double platform laser on Yoshi's and give me your feel on its tightness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gBDctEu8Hg#t=14

It's like Fox's and Falco's side-b shortens, aside from the fact that he has a killer sweetspot on ending. There are four points you can shorten it at, all one frame apart. This allows you to reposition the sweetspot along his flight path, but you have to be frame perfect. Get the timing wrong and you whiff the sweetspot, potentially losing a stock instead of getting a kill.

 

[GP&B]

That B-rev Eruption onto stage out of QD walljump was disgusting.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pretty sure you can only CC wolf's shine if you are already crouching. Which is something that doesn't even happen that often. Also doesn't work if he approaches with nair or dair. You could force a ground bounce by ASDIing down normally I guess, but it's a shine, he's got ten years of frame advantage, the only characters he won't be able to tech chase on reaction will be ones with godly techrolls like sheik.
But I do still think that that kind of available counterplay of having the option to CC tech and force a tech chase to alter his available punishment tree is part of what makes wolf the best designed spacie

That B-rev Eruption onto stage out of QD walljump was disgusting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIrP5OdnYYQ

 

[Ogopogo]

I find it really funny when people say everything about a character is figured out except *relatively small trick* Ever stop to think that a character may not be figured out because we haven't discovered them fully yet? I mean, how many years did it take before people figured out falco could pillar pretty much anyone to death in melee?

I kinda hope someone saves that above post to quote it when Wolf is high/top tier because people figure out jank !@#$ like hitting guaranteed shine to shine to shorten side-b at any % or something dumb like that. Wolf has FAR too much jank to be figured out after such a short time. imo, in 20XX PM, he's god tier just above fox and falco ( who are bottom tier along with everyone else) because of shorten side-b.

I phrased it wrong. I meant to say that waveland lasers haven't really been explored at all in high level play (except for some nice stuff by Rat). This video shows some of Wolf's potential. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gBDctEu8Hg

And shortened side-b? You mean combo ender button? Really the only use is landing a energems finisher that you couldn't usually a la Chillin vs. Hax at Bar Wars. A final note... Wolf above Fox? lol ok sure

 

[GP&B]

Pretty sure you can only CC wolf's shine if you are already crouching. Which is something that doesn't even happen that often. Also doesn't work if he approaches with nair or dair. You could force a ground bounce by ASDIing down normally I guess, but it's a shine, he's got ten years of frame advantage, the only characters he won't be able to tech chase on reaction will be ones with godly techrolls like sheik.
But I do still think that that kind of available counterplay of having the option to CC tech and force a tech chase to alter his available punishment tree is part of what makes wolf the best designed spacie


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIrP5OdnYYQ

It's the one thing I'm horribly inconsistent at and I don't know why. Most of my other Ike movement things are pretty down pat at this point.

 

[Soft Serve]

Wolf will never be quite as good as fox or falco because he just can't approach the same way as they can. He doesn't have the hitboxes on his nair/dair for it.
What he does do better currently is have a much better and flexible movement game with his great air speed and drift, and has a great set up projectile that maintains a lot of space presence while it is out. Another area where he does better is netting confirms off grabs, wolf has followups off Up-throw at low-mid percents and at high percents vs fast fallers, and B-throw and D-throw at every percent on everyone, or a tech chase, DI dependent.
He has flashy and efficient stock taking once the wolf player optimizes side-b and sweetspot fair set-ups, and has the best juggling game with Uair out of all the spacies. He also has the best ledge stall because his up-b grabs ledge frame 1

The only Other thing that wolf has over fox/falco that really makes a difference is how much he nets off of grabs comparatively. Its why its okay that wolf's shine can be CC'd, because Shine-grabs are obscenely threatening and wolf has the best out of all the spacies. He has better followups off of grab than fox vs most of the cast, and has the benifits that falco does for shine-grabing where if they shine does catch them, he can still confirm off it even if the grab whiffs

Shield pressure wise, his nair is easier to beat out, but if they do shield it everything is free. Nair>shine is guaranteed thanks to landing hitboxes making it +0, then shine> either doubleshine or grab covers every option the opponent has. His other options are fantastic for baiting out and punishing anything else (Full jump dair, SH fade back fair [ty spidermad], shine turn around retreat bair, etc) His pressure is better than falco's frame wise, although fox has better extended shield pressure as his nair comes out faster.

While they all still have similar neutral game goals, ie pressure, get in, combo combo combo, wolf has to go about it differently because he doesn't have the hitboxes fox/falco have for approaching, doesn't have falco lasers, and doesn't quite have fox's dash speed for bait and DD pressure. Wolf instead is great at sitting in zones where the opponent doesn't want him to be in, because (like fox) he can capitalize on a mistake from pretty much full stage with his air mobility, sort of like falcon can. The difference between wolf and falcon's neutral game and threatening space is that wolf actually has tools (shine, blaster, amazing ground game) that he can use to get into and hold those zones. (ty to 1FD for enlightening me on how wolf does this, it really improved my everything)

Wolf probably has the best punish game of all the spacies (minus lucas), but he has to work harder than the others to get into those situations. He doesn't really do better any MU's than fox/falco. He still wins most of the same ones, but they are generally closer (exceptions would be Wolf doing better vs DDD and bowser than fox does, and better vs peach than Falco does) and loses the same MU's but even harder (Marth ****s on him, he loses the spacie dittos, loses to Samus hard on every stage that isn't FD). He's ****ing fantastic, and in theory he should be able to 0-to-death everyone in the cast consistantly, but in practice he will probably always be slightly worse than the other spacies

tl;dr- Wolf is basically what falcon wishes he could be, with a shine and a bit of marth/shiek mixed in
Wolf has the best grab punishes overall, and the best shine-grab out of all the spacies
But will always be slightly worse because he doesn't have approach options on the same level

I really like wolf and think he is basically perfect as is, and wouldn't really change anything going into 3.5 balance wise unless something glaring is discovered later. Design wise he has almost everything a character could want (only lacks stupid approaching hitboxes and recovery), so if they are going with the "trim the fat" there are tons of areas where I would hit him

 

[DMG]

Don't remind meeeeeeeeeeee that Falcon wishes he was as good as Spacies. Plz it hurts me

 

[trash?]

the DMG memorial "give falcon a laser" charity

all proceeds go to bribing whomever works on falcon in the PMDT

 

[DMG]

No give him a shine, then he can defend himself against OP but then also OP attack people! Imagine Knee perfectly done on shield, followed into shine! I'm salivating

 

[1FD]

@ Foo (and others) shorten side b isn't something undiscovered or underdeveloped really. I don't watch streams lately or anything but just because the mainstream whoevers aren't really doing something doesn't mean it aint a thing somewhere and that nobody knows.
There's a reason things like m2k with m2 can do so well and straight up have hour long fb chats with someone about how to do with something as m2 and only have him neglect anytime TP and Hover and DownB are brought up, then to have someone like Emukiller show up and show THAT IT'S ALREADY A THING

Combine what you see from everyone and it's really not hard to piece stuff together. I do agree that it's hard to find stuff developed though, let alone in play with other things, let alone all those things developed together, let alone see what it means and how it'll play out.
Random hint, I'm basically 100% acurate with shortened Side Bs, it's as consistent as shinegrabbing at this point. This isn't a new thing really and I'm not the only one obvs.

I posted a while ago a something I'll find the link and edited it here.
Here's the link
This is from something like ONE SESSION, just me so ONE PERSON, and ALL FIRST STOCKS so ONE STOCK COMPILATION
(more detail in the post in the link actually)
Look at how many side bs and shortens there are
And I'm a scrub
The BnB of a character isn't something that should be underdeveloped at any time.
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-02.339825/page-944#post-17594378

@ InfinityCollision You can also angle the SideB up or down, so it covers more. That made the ridic amounts of coverage even easier too.

Another link I'll post here is a few matches of naus playing for the first time since Jan (if I get it uploaded on a youtube or something)

I guess it would show how even after basically a year of not playing how someone can STILL be consistent with Side B kills. Took ages for people to start even the Uair/Fair > sideb things even after the Dat thread was up, when everyone was stuck talking about ways of lining it up as if it was RARE (like wtf) or shine was the only way to do it and couldn't even figure out. You can knee anything with wolf. Not just throws or shines or aerials but naus probs landed more shines out of dtilts and utilts than any wolf in the world landed shines at ALL before 3.0.

Reminds me of seeing of the way M2 was hidden for a couple months of 3.0 and Lucas and Sonic even in other patches for basically ever. Look passed stuff and it's really not hard to see jank.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Oh lawdy imagine shine grabbing people as Falcon

 

[Paradoxium]

If he had Falco's shine he could probably shine pillar with it

And if he had wolfs shine he could shine Knee

 

[trash?]

falco's would be better, with good timing he'd just reverse knee and get the best of both worlds

welcome to the falcon buff speculation thread

 

[Soft Serve]

Let's make it a wolf appreciation thread instead

 

[1FD]

Let's make it a wolf appreciation thread instead

I make every thread a Wolf appreciation thread.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

1FD and Wolf OTP

 

[1FD]

I googled OTP.
You made a correct statement.

 

[Tagxy]

lmao they actually did it, they nerfed pikachu:
" Although he is limited to QACing only the first burst in his upB "
Good games PMDT, good freaking games. Good thing I already quit this trash character before for MK anyways, just hope MK is still decent.