Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

RIP Texas.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't worry, tink definitely isn't broken in 3.5. I'll share my thoughts on him tomorrow when the game comes out

 

[Rᴏb]

Quoting for posterity.

Anyways, ZSS now has a normal grab.
Top tier calling it now.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Anyways, ZSS now has a normal grab.
Top tier calling it now.

...
...
...

*bursts into tears of joy*

 

[Bones0]

Can Mewtwo still act out of tepelort?

Apparently he can if he doesn't DJ. Idk why they decided to half-ass all of the up-B cancelling stuff when none of it should have been added in the first place. Is there any info about overall recovery distances being nerfed?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Quoting for posterity.

Anyways, ZSS now has a normal grab.
Top tier calling it now.

Jesus piss. If she didn't get commensurate nerfs, that's going to be busted as hell.

Just booted Brawl and checked out Tink's nair. Interesting. Seems like its uses will overlap a ton with fair?

 

[Foo]

I'm honestly terrified of her getting a regular grab. Getting that big of a buff on grab probably means her upsmash and fair are getting changed too. And what scares me about that is. WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO NERF?!?!?!

There's no way PMDT is going to buff ZSS that much without nerfing her somewhere else. Please don't take away dash cancel blaster, nairs power or bairs power please pleae please please plea sze please paleall lpz elpz e plz
PLZ

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Hear ye hear ye.

PMDT seems to have realized that Meta Knight's Dair was a buff.

Brawl Dair is back.

 

[Deleted member]

3.02 MK Dair is ********.

"I have 4 mid air jumps, a down b that doesn't put me into special fall, and a dive kick dair. Positional advantage? Nah bruh. Nahhhhh,"

 

[Jolteon]

If TL's Brawl-style nair was really a decision to nerf Lunchables' main, we would have failed terribly in that regard lol.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If TL's Brawl-style nair was really a decision to nerf Lunchables' main, we would have failed terribly in that regard lol.

I assume it was in an effort to make his neutral game a bit less braindead?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Hey, Mario retains Super Jump Punch walljump. Interesting ...

 

[Jolteon]

I assume it was in an effort to make his neutral game a bit less braindead?

There wasn't any particular area of his gameplay that we tried to address with it, it was primarily an experimental design change. It just so happened to work out really well.

 

[Deleted member]

btw, I'd like to point out that all posts on there aren't finalized. There is some stuff on the tink page thats incorrect, won't point it out though.

Anything thats NEW I'd trust, but anything that has been there since the 3.02 posts I wouldn't say is still confirmed for 3.5

a.k.a. wait for changelog

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ah, okay then.

Because I saw Pit's glide section and was like O.O

 

[Deleted member]

im out at dinner and people are literally texting me to read this thread for how stupid it is

 

[Foo]

im out at dinner and people are literally texting me to read this thread for how stupid it is

And it didn't disappoint, did it?

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, except you're also watching tloc on your smart phone app so don't even talk

gottem

 

[Plum]

Hear ye hear ye.

PMDT seems to have realized that Meta Knight's Dair was a buff.

Brawl Dair is back.

I wouldn't really call it a buff. It was stupid, yes, because MK as a character basically negated a lot of key aspects of Smash centered around positioning and stage control and dive kick Dair was partly to blame. But Brawl Dair is excessively dumb for other reasons. It also does a very good job of making MK not care about being above you, and just DESTROYS recoveries. There's no way in hell you can actually let MK have Brawl Dair (as in, straight from Brawl, not the nerfed version that is presumably in 3.5).

 

[1FD]

TLs Brawl Fair sounds so great
MK with 3.02 Fair was not great
ZSS with standard grab too great
3.5 all the greatness but it will hopefully remain as the TRIFORCE THREAD into the new year
Because triforce chars bess chars

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, except you're also watching tloc on your smart phone app so don't even talk

gottem

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Saving this for future use

Use EVERYWHERE

 

[Deleted member]

Saving this for future use

Use EVERYWHERE

i think i love you

agreed

 

[JOE!]

Where are people getting info?

 

[mimgrim]

Where are people getting info?

projectmgame.com/en/characters/

 

[trash?]

Jesus piss. If she didn't get commensurate nerfs, that's going to be busted as hell.

Just booted Brawl and checked out Tink's nair. Interesting. Seems like its uses will overlap a ton with fair?

remember, tethers aren't free anymore, so you could prolly get away with actually edgeguarding her now.

she sounds like she'll be great tho, now she gets a good grab game? GGs

 

[Thor]

Why on earth was QAC nerfed?

Oh right, we went over this earlier in the thread, because it was SO BROKEN, EXACTLY LIKE MEWTWO'S TELEPORT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6X-xpU_Ags
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfqdoCxJnSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z67qt6FiZEg

It was CLEARLY a necessary nerf.

...Oh wait...

@ Tagxy but are you seriously dropping Pikachu because of this? That seems... excessive... Also I'm pretty sure Professor Pro has a good Melee Fox... I don't know where you get the idea that he's only good at PM, that's like saying Emukiller is bad lol

 

[trash?]

because a lot of changes are based around things being overtly badly designed as much as they are badly balanced

2.1 ike was easily dealt with by any competent edgeguarder like DDD or even jigglypuff, but he was really badly designed, so we got a significantly better ike out of it

speaking of, y'all are nerfing kirbicides, right? that is the most boring tactic in the history of boring tactics, even if it's basically a gimmick past a certain skill level

 

[SM_SC11]

Maybe I am crazy, but I think Olimar is incredibly under rated... In PM I feel like he can build damage so easy on opponent, and take so little damage, with basic strategy throwing his pikmin with side special, then spamming dSmash it is so hard to punish olimar users, it hits both sides, with so little lag, I know his recovery is not the best and he is gimpable, but it is so hard to get in on a good defensive olimar.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why on earth was QAC nerfed?

Oh right, we went over this earlier in the thread, because it was SO BROKEN, EXACTLY LIKE MEWTWO'S TELEPORT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6X-xpU_Ags
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfqdoCxJnSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z67qt6FiZEg

It was CLEARLY a necessary nerf.

...Oh wait...

@ Tagxy but are you seriously dropping Pikachu because of this? That seems... excessive... Also I'm pretty sure Professor Pro has a good Melee Fox... I don't know where you get the idea that he's only good at PM, that's like saying Emukiller is bad lol

Not as a movement option on-stage, Thor - if that was the intent of the nerf it would have been removed entirely. Removing QAC out of Up-B2 is to avoid making Pika's long-distance recovery too safe, because of all the options he has out of it. It's basically bringing Pika in line with the general notion of toning all recoveries down.

Like even though it's perfectly edgeguardable now I'm fully expecting 3.5 Ike to have a shorter Aether, less horizontal drift during Aether and an even slower-charging Side-B in the air. It's the way of the game now.

 

[Thor]

Not as a movement option on-stage, Thor - if that was the intent of the nerf it would have been removed entirely. Removing QAC out of Up-B2 is to avoid making Pika's long-distance recovery too safe, because of all the options he has out of it. It's basically bringing Pika in line with the general notion of toning all recoveries down.

Like even though it's perfectly edgeguardable now I'm fully expecting 3.5 Ike to have a shorter Aether, less horizontal drift during Aether and an even slower-charging Side-B in the air. It's the way of the game now.

It wasn't hard to edgeguard in the first place, but that's neither here nor there I guess.

Also I thought the point of Pikachu was being light but having a strong recovery, but I guess the PMDT disagrees. Ike is a bit different, since hard hitters are heavy and typically have weak recoveries (Samus being the classic outlier, but go beyond her and this description fits), so if they nerfed his recovery to an almost Captain Falcon status, I would be unsurprised. But this is Pikachu, not Captain Falcon or Ike, so...

Maybe I am crazy, but I think Olimar is incredibly under rated... In PM I feel like he can build damage so easy on opponent, and take so little damage, with basic strategy throwing his pikmin with side special, then spamming dSmash it is so hard to punish olimar users, it hits both sides, with so little lag, I know his recovery is not the best and he is gimpable, but it is so hard to get in on a good defensive olimar.

Fox can just run in, jump over the dsmash and dair him, then shine and now Olimar is being tech-chased. And he's super light. And there are better options than this.

Olimar might be underrated (since many think he's bottom of the barrel and he might not be), but he's not near the top either, at least from what has been seen.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It wasn't hard to edgeguard in the first place, but that's neither here nor there I guess.

Also I thought the point of Pikachu was being light but having a strong recovery, but I guess the PMDT disagrees. Ike is a bit different, since hard hitters are heavy and typically have weak recoveries (Samus being the classic outlier, but go beyond her and this description fits), so if they nerfed his recovery to an almost Captain Falcon status, I would be unsurprised. But this is Pikachu, not Captain Falcon or Ike, so...

We see Ike pretty differently then. The ability to go deep for edgeguards with fair/dair defines his playstyle a lot in my mind, as well as good spacing, zoning with his reach and a reasonably interesting/creative yet ultimately not overly strong combo game with an emphasis on baits and grabs. The improved drift on Aether is actually a LARGE part of what makes him so awesome for going deep for kill offstage - which is I'm fully prepared to see it go. If recoveries are worse across the board, then hey, I probably won't need it.

 

[Thor]

We see Ike pretty differently then. The ability to go deep for edgeguards with fair/dair defines his playstyle a lot in my mind, as well as good spacing, zoning with his reach and a reasonably interesting/creative yet ultimately not overly strong combo game with an emphasis on baits and grabs. The improved drift on Aether is actually a LARGE part of what makes him so awesome for going deep for kill offstage - which is I'm fully prepared to see it go. If recoveries are worse across the board, then hey, I probably won't need it.

What I meant by Captain Falcon style recovery is "Hey I can get to the stage but this practically has no hitbox!" Falcon can go relatively far out for knees and dairs too, and his recovery is suited to making it back - barely (and Falcon can go deep thanks to walljumping too). I thus wouldn't be surprised if Aether became easy to CC and punish (or something like that). It might also eventually have other nerfs (like the drift), but what I meant by saying that he would have a weak recovery is that I would not be surprised to see Ike's recovery be designed to get him back... but not very safely if there is anyone trying to keep him offstage.

 

[Soft Serve]

Olimar is stupid
both design wise and viability wise, leave his as is, he will be so fantastic in 3.5

 

[DMG]

Spoiler

Someone should make a Vine, Gif, or Video where Lunchables gives Tagxy the RKO

 

[Tagxy]

because a lot of changes are based around things being overtly badly designed as much as they are badly balanced

2.1 ike was easily dealt with by any competent edgeguarder like DDD or even jigglypuff, but he was really badly designed, so we got a significantly better ike out of it

speaking of, y'all are nerfing kirbicides, right? that is the most boring tactic in the history of boring tactics, even if it's basically a gimmick past a certain skill level

Please, quick attack cancel wasnt bad design. If you want to argue 3.02 QAC doesnt fit within the context of PM 3.5's preferred design goals thats a different argument, while the technique itself is fine it was reasonable for QAC to get nerfed or removed if this was the case.

But if you want to talk about bad design lets talk about the new QAC. I can imagine someone thinking Quick Attack Cancel with two bursts is too good and removing was too big a nerf, and thinking that cutting it in half was a good decision, lol. Bones0 was correct this seems like a half-ass job in the guise of compromise, the move provides no worthy utility to pikachu's arsenal and sits there pretending to provide better balance and depth to pikachu when it does neither. It wouldve been better to remove it completely then have it turned into the jankyiness it is now, and my hope is that this is just a transition until the next patch where it is gone.

@ Tagxy but are you seriously dropping Pikachu because of this? That seems... excessive... Also I'm pretty sure Professor Pro has a good Melee Fox... I don't know where you get the idea that he's only good at PM, that's like saying Emukiller is bad lol

I already quit him during 3.02 man. And everyone and their mother has a good melee fox, when youre in a region I'm from you learn to have a higher standard for good.

 

[trash?]

buddy I already deal with one snobbish pokemon-name on this board and at least umbreon has some integrity in that pitch-black soul of his

 

[B.W.]

Only reason I feel like QAC was limited to the first QA is to make his recovery not completely safe when he's coming back from far away.

That said, only being able to do it with the first part of QA kind of destroys its viability on stage. We'll have to see, but I'm currently feeling like they might as well have removed it with this change.

 

[Soft Serve]

Um, I'd disgree. I never thought that qac buffed his recovery, expecially not when he was far away, it helped by making situations where he was just off stage even safer, because he could sweetspot from any angle as well as land laglessly of the stage.

On stage I don't think it changes anything besides platform movement, pika isn't a camper and tries to stay in close and keep pressure up, he doesn't need or use a tool like qac from the distance of a full double up b, a single up b used diagonally is about the spacing he wants to keep when he isn't nair ing past shield in most match ups anyway.

Qac nerf don't really change anything. If they did then it's not the character being bad now, it's you centering your whole game plan around one "gimmicky" mechanic and not adapting.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, this is seriously just giving me flashbacks to when people said Lucas' current dair was worthless.

Look where that ****ing got us.