Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

MLGF, who the hell is your post even directed towards?

 

[MLGF]

Essentially anyone who is preemptively whining about nerfs. I had no one specific, but by god this attitude is a toxic change to the PM community.

 

[Boiko]

We should all be happy our M2/Sonic/Little Boy overlords are being nerfed.

 

[victinivcreate1]

We should all be happy our M2/Sonic/Little Boy overlords are being nerfed.

Don't forget the primitive banana tossing version of Kunta Kinte, well hopefully at least

 

[Magus420]

Zhime actually had very little part in Zelda's design (some transform related things come to mind). She was primarily designed by myself (3x delayed explosion Din's, land cancel Nayru's, teledashing, 2 hit u-air, other stuff I'm surely forgetting, lots of pretty GFX and lighting effects), then mostly stat tweaked from there along with some new additions and touch ups by Ryoko (like hitbox on Din's while stationary and super sweetspot kicks).

 

[Deleted member]

Don't forget the primitive banana tossing version of ****a Kinte

Yeah, that wasn't a tasteless thing to write at all.

Zhime actually had very little part in Zelda's design (some transform related things come to mind). She was primarily designed by myself (3x delayed explosion Din's, land cancel Nayru's, teledashing, 2 hit u-air, other stuff I'm surely forgetting, lots of pretty GFX and lighting effects), then mostly stat tweaked from there along with some new additions and touch ups by Ryoko (like hitbox on Din's while stationary and super sweetspot kicks).

Thank you for clearing that up. I'd love to hear your opinions about the criticisms of your design choices. Do you agree with the general concensus about the character? Do you regret any of the design choices? Do you think she should be heading in a different direction at this point? Unlike most of the self-proclaimed experts here, you'll actually know what you're talking about, which is refreshing.

 

[Vashimus]

Psh, I play Samus and Yoshi. I ain't afraid of no 3.5

 

[DMG]

I'm no self-proclaimed expert, but I hate Zelda and I'm running for President of Guatemala in 2020, so nerf Zelda

 

[RelaxAlax]

Zelda isn't bad ... she's just ... *Snake voice* eeeeeuh ...

I wish for her to be likable, but playing against and playing as, she is not fulfilling or enjoyable. Not sure how much they'll change her, and whether they want to alienate Zelda players. But I suspect something new will come of her. Just enough so all that magicey hogwash and fairy land sound effects stop irritating me.

 

[Player -0]

I think making Zelda's dash a bit better and something about her SH would be cool. Her D-Tilt is an "amazing" poke but she can't close distance at all and is SUPPOSED to play a campy game that pretty much gets destroyed by any other campy character with a straightforward projectile. If she could quickly put down a Din's where she was standing it would help her stage control and not get her punished to death for attempting to set something up. Some of her toolkit is just awkward.

 

[DMG]

Zelda should just commit Sudoku, she was always bad with numbers

 

[jtm94]

She has really good normals and DI modifiers on her moves. Her jab is amazing, Fsmash is like a fair Metaknight fsmash but bigger, utilt is unnecessarily strong, dsmash is still good, and dtilt has like 30 hitboxes for some reason

I agree with @ Player -0 out here. Dins and Nayrus are just awkward. Dins was supposed to give her something to do since she wasn't fast enough to approach, but it's still too slow to do anything and can be punished from anywhere and is mostly only usable when recovering or already in a winning position. Teledashing is actually neat, limits her to the ground, and is slow enough to react to her appearance before she can land a grounded move. Her only fast moves out of it are like jab, grab, dtilt and dsmash, so it isn't like she can go Mewtwo and appear just before she kicks you right in yo face.

The design is still pretty uninteractive which is broken from most of the other characters, but by no means is she overpowered with this moveset, just no one enjoys facing it. It's like Sonic if he himself was too slow so they gave him an unbalanced KO move that is frustrating to wield.

 

[batistabus]

I feel like the biggest thing Zelda struggles with is being a character I don't hate.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda isn't actually a smash character, she's more of a character you'd see on a yugioh card

 

[DMG]

Blue Eyes Zelda Dragon

Or the 5 pieces of Zelda Kicks. Assemble all 5 in your hand, and your opponent instantly stops having fun

 

[SpiderMad]

Sigh...
In 2.0 Ike was dumb, in 2.5 Ike was stupidly nerfed and people whining.
Now, that's happening again before the next update even comes out.

Get the **** over it people.

Characters will change until they feel they're more or less on the sweetspot of design. That's why mechanics are more important. If the PMDT implements something unintended by non-optimal coding or whatever, the fact it wasn't what they wanted or didn't match Melee can sometimes cloud their minds.

You never want them to get too complacent with their goals, but to weight the benefits of unintended features meticulously. Aerial Glide Tossing with the addition of the Melee Air Dodge was thankfully met with warm welcome, as were the current form of DACUSes. But there's a lot more out there lingering in obscurity. The community at large can give feedback on characters, but few know beyond dwell and assess on any of the impactful oversights that ASM coding Brawl into Melee can bring.

I can bring many of them I've took sight on to the table, but the lack of care will always be critical and wither them to be even more dissonant. The examples vary a wide range of topics, one such being this which is hard to determine if it's best or not for the game. Would this have ever been talked about if Ryoko, being briefed himself on the mechanic change, never made the thread? Probably not, and when he did only a small number of people had rough guesses on the matter. http://smashboards.com/threads/multihit-powershield-behavior-why-i-think-its-blech.340160/
Other things are Footstools, Buffer, Increased Air time possibly due to over-applied Landing detection coding in 2.1 yielding a plethora of new things from Melee (a lot of which are hard to perform, making the whole thing more arcane to people), Light Press Air dodge http://smashboards.com/threads/a-di...ad-thing-health-related.360937/#post-17071426 , Odd mechanics Melee had like induced gravity on first airborne frame aerials reducing jump height which may or may not warrant a return, and so forth. Further reading: http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-02.339825/page-1084#post-17926357

 

[Strong Badam]

I hope the reason 3.5 is taking longer than expected is because they're going to release a changelog the same day

We did that with 3.0 and subsequent patches and plan to do so with 3.5, but that isn't making us release later than we otherwise would. Since we haven't announced a release date yet, I'm not sure where you got the impression that it's taking longer than expected either.

 

[Deleted member]

le ripple leaks
le f*cked up

Edit: Someone put this on the pm subreddit, pretty cool video showing off how bad QAC is

Man I wish I was as good as tagxy

 

[Player -0]

But Zelda teleport -> AGT is the best ever.

 

[Soft Serve]

le ripple leaks
le f*cked up

Edit: Someone put this on the pm subreddit, pretty cool video showing off how bad QAC is

Man I wish I was as good as tagxy

The only new thing to me in that video was the quick ledgegrab from on stage like he was Lucario/M2.
When people talked about QAC I sort of assumed that everyone knew this was the **** that he can do lol.

 

[DMG]

People don't play other characters. Why do you think Yoshi is so overrated, despite having like 3 actual mains and still having bugs/minor off-putting quirks?

 

[Tagxy]

Edit: Someone put this on the pm subreddit, pretty cool video showing off how bad QAC is

Man I wish I was as good as tagxy

Yeah thatd be pretty good if only a simple hitbox wasnt able to beat all of it. I hope you know he could do 95% of that stuff in Brawl too, lol. Someday youll be as good as I am and be able to punish BS like that every time. On a serious note your solution was legit pretty bad, QA already has limited ability to be mixed up if you remove it entirely it may as well not exist.

 

[Deleted member]

Did you know that if you put a hitbox out before mewtwo nairs during hover, he gets hit!

teleport hover nair confirmed bad, you're all fraudulent SEE YOU IN 20+ PAGES

 

[JOE!]

Somebody was trying to convince me today that Charizard has a better recovery than Pikachu....

 

[DMG]

Did you know, if you picked Mario and pressed B you won?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Zhime actually had very little part in Zelda's design (some transform related things come to mind). She was primarily designed by myself (3x delayed explosion Din's, land cancel Nayru's, teledashing, 2 hit u-air, other stuff I'm surely forgetting, lots of pretty GFX and lighting effects), then mostly stat tweaked from there along with some new additions and touch ups by Ryoko (like hitbox on Din's while stationary and super sweetspot kicks).

From my understanding, Zhime was like the primary playtester. You and Ryoko did the coding and design stuff, and Zhime was the high level Zelda player with the ability to implement it into gameplay and help fine-tune what worked and what didn't.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I have no interest in debating about Zelda anymore. I've said what I wanted to say in the past and have no interest in doing so again. Whatever happens to her is going to happen regardless of what I think, so I'm done.

However, I'm not going to stand by and let you guys bad mouth the person who designed her. And if your intent is to be spiteful and get a rise out of Zelda players (of which few actually post here so you're not going to get much of a response anyway,) you're just proving yourself to be an immature child with nothing of value to say.

But hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself to gang up on a group of people who have been relatively silent for a long time now, go right ahead.

Give that man a cookie

 

[Ripple]

We did that with 3.0 and subsequent patches and plan to do so with 3.5, but that isn't making us release later than we otherwise would. Since we haven't announced a release date yet, I'm not sure where you got the impression that it's taking longer than expected either.

There was definitely no change log the day of 3.0 or whateverwhatever. I remember people including myself making a big deal about it because a weekend definitely passed without one and we didn't have 100% confirmed changes. I also didn't really play any ask thing before 3.0 so I don't know how I could misremember something like that.

Also, please. Simply asking any pmdt member "how soon till 3.5" was enough for them to give me your projected date as of at least a month ago. I don't even know why you even addressed this considering you don't address any other leaks at all

 

[Strong Badam]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-3-0-released-changelog-in-post.343401/
Changelog in post and no edit history. Posted same day of release.

 

[DMG]

Ya I was pretty sure 3.0 change logs were on time. Something a bit before that wasn't though

 

[Strong Badam]

2.6 wasn't, 2.6b was. n_n

 

[Hylian]

There was definitely no change log the day of 3.0 or whateverwhatever. I remember people including myself making a big deal about it because a weekend definitely passed without one and we didn't have 100% confirmed changes. I also didn't really play any ask thing before 3.0 so I don't know how I could misremember something like that.

Also, please. Simply asking any pmdt member "how soon till 3.5" was enough for them to give me your projected date as of at least a month ago. I don't even know why you even addressed this considering you don't address any other leaks at all

There certainly was a changelog on 3.0 release, it was something I personally made sure of before we released.

Edit: There was community backlash after 2.6 not having a changelog for a bit and the PMDT took it to heart and learned from it's well intentioned mistakes.

 

[Strong Badam]

By "personally made sure of," Jordan of course means bugging me and cmart to do it. :3 Special thanks to Warchamp7 for adding the collapse feature on our website for the changelog post.

 

[Hylian]

By "personally made sure of," Jordan of course means bugging me and cmart to do it. :3

I'm good at bugging people :3

Edit: And I only didn't do it because I was moving and didn't have internet .

 

[Ripple]

I played 2.6 like 2 times. That seems weird that I'd remember that

 

[Strong Badam]

Probably because Low Tier City 1 happened and you and others complained because all of top 4 was PMDT and there wasn't a changelist. Not like our characters had particularly substantial changes other than Reflex's Ivysaur.

 

[trash?]

But hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself to gang up on a group of people who have been relatively silent for a long time now, go right ahead.

I've had you on ignore pretty much since forever but everyone was laughing about zelda players suddenly and I've immediately been confused

you're taking people not liking your bad character like you're fronting a god damn civil rights group, where's your self-awareness, do you not realize it's exactly bits like this that justifies laughing at you so much

 

[Tagxy]

Did you know that if you put a hitbox out before mewtwo nairs during hover, he gets hit!

teleport hover nair confirmed bad, you're all fraudulent SEE YOU IN 20+ PAGES

Right I almost forgot about all those times QAC let pikachu hover in the air with an instant massive multihit attack, provided him with basically his entire moveset anywhere in the game after an untelegraphed no hurtbox teleport with ridiculous flexibility in range and angle. Oh wait a minute that doesnt sound like QAC at all, sounds like some other broken move. If that sounds familiar its because I also said this before 2 pages ago, which like all other worthwhile statements were conveniently skipped over. So unless you have something more substantial to say than "HRRNNNN TELEPORT LUNCHABLES DONT LIKE BURN WITH FIRE" let the kind people of the Project M Tier List Speculation Thread be done with this subject please and thank you protege

 

[nimigoha]

Anyone who likens QAC to Teleport has a very superficial understanding of their uses.

 

[Boiko]

QAC is godlike. Sounds like you're just not using it correctly.

 

[Foo]

Lunchables wasn't saying QAC=M2 Hover, he's saying that that logic applies to everything. Any form of mobility in this game is technically beaten by hitting them out of it. If we're theory crafting here, if you can wreck QAC with a well place hitbox, you can wreck m2hover nair with one two, and m2 hover nair is confirmed for busted.