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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
Ha, I actually made a post like that in the Ganon social a while back:
PMDTplzSneak peak of PM 3.1:
"Most of Ganondorf's aerials were pretty terrible, but we gave him something to work with in the next update.
[collapse=Here's his new fair, replacing the barely usable one he had in prior updates][/collapse]
[collapse=as well as a new bair, now with even more range than before][/collapse]
[collapse=and lastly, a new uair][/collapse]
Don't be too hasty in your judgement of these changes. Just let it all soak in and you'll realize that this was really the only thing that could be done to make this character viable."
Foo
Smash Lord
His jab and ftilt would be pretty good... lol
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Not to steer this thread in back in the direction of a discussion or anything, but does anyone else feel like Falcon v/s Ganon is completely hopeless? That M.U. sort of exemplifies one of two things that keep Ganon down, his complete inability to pin down faster characters and do anything grave besides stray hits. It just feels like Falcon gets all the reward for relatively little risk and Ganon has to keep taking risks for minimal reward.
Part of that is what makes me wonder if there's any kind of 'balancing process' the PMDT use. Because on the one hand you have characters like Pit, good in all aspects - onstage, offstage, recovery, edge-guarding, controlling space, combos - and then on the other hand characters like Ganon who are bad at everything, with limited combos, grab ranges, laggy and predictable recovery, no stage control to speak of, etc. Feels like there's some kind of calculus that should be used here, to make sure characters aren't all weakness or all strength (or too much in either direction). Thoughts?
Part of that is what makes me wonder if there's any kind of 'balancing process' the PMDT use. Because on the one hand you have characters like Pit, good in all aspects - onstage, offstage, recovery, edge-guarding, controlling space, combos - and then on the other hand characters like Ganon who are bad at everything, with limited combos, grab ranges, laggy and predictable recovery, no stage control to speak of, etc. Feels like there's some kind of calculus that should be used here, to make sure characters aren't all weakness or all strength (or too much in either direction). Thoughts?
well, i'd actually say ganon has some good points to his character (high damage, high power, good weight, decent (nondisjointed) hitboxes) but they don't really matter to the meta. the meta cares about mobility, noncommital options, and stage control. and then it turns out that many of the characters that have those good points (especially the mobility and noncommital options) have very good killing options.
that leads into your thoughts of overly strong "good characters". fox, pit, diddy, m2, et. al... all have good mobility, stage control, and/or low commitment options, BUT they also have very good killing power. so, what does someone like ganon or bowser gain? more weight so they have to recover more often? better hitboxes at the expense of worse hurtboxes?
that's probably one of the things smash4 got (mostly...) right. they made the big, fat characters able to kill very early, but then turned around and toned down the fast mobile characters so they have to get several good reads onto their strong moves, possibly several times; or they need to get several good reads into their early gimps.
because, honestly, if the fast characters only had kill options like brawl pit or sonic, they probably wouldn't feel quite as overwhelming (and more importantly, they might not be quite as overwhelming).
/thoughts of a mid tier player
that leads into your thoughts of overly strong "good characters". fox, pit, diddy, m2, et. al... all have good mobility, stage control, and/or low commitment options, BUT they also have very good killing power. so, what does someone like ganon or bowser gain? more weight so they have to recover more often? better hitboxes at the expense of worse hurtboxes?
that's probably one of the things smash4 got (mostly...) right. they made the big, fat characters able to kill very early, but then turned around and toned down the fast mobile characters so they have to get several good reads onto their strong moves, possibly several times; or they need to get several good reads into their early gimps.
because, honestly, if the fast characters only had kill options like brawl pit or sonic, they probably wouldn't feel quite as overwhelming (and more importantly, they might not be quite as overwhelming).
/thoughts of a mid tier player
PillsBuryDopeBoy
Führer President King DopeLord The VI
Guys Luigi vs Ganon matchup. Is it a losing battle for Luigi?
1FD
Smash Ace
I just playded doubles as mewtwo with a pika on my team and holy **** that's broke. Like ANYTHING hits people upwards with throws and m2 fair and utilts and etc then pikas usmash etc and you just keep pika dow bing and m2 TP fair fishing and you cover like EVERYTHING and it just keeps making people fly around the stage. And they cover distance so much being so fast and having such different ways of spacing with range vs small hard hitboxes
I played against it once but didn't know why it was so good until being on the GOOD side of it.
Hella fun highly recommend everyone try it. Lots of pika down b and spacing HC fairs with m2 and just do your normal things.
It seems like it would be hard to get through ganon fairs but anything else even nair and tilts luigi doesn't care about. Ganon still has trouble with everything and if luigi doesn't want to get hit, just like with any character, ganon can't hit him. Even if it means being safer. I know Ivy is annoying for luigi but still manageable and it's the same deal but to a less harsh extent with ganon, kind of like how bowser suffers from them, but bowser can't really do ANYTHING about much of anything.
I played against it once but didn't know why it was so good until being on the GOOD side of it.
Hella fun highly recommend everyone try it. Lots of pika down b and spacing HC fairs with m2 and just do your normal things.
It seems like it would be hard to get through ganon fairs but anything else even nair and tilts luigi doesn't care about. Ganon still has trouble with everything and if luigi doesn't want to get hit, just like with any character, ganon can't hit him. Even if it means being safer. I know Ivy is annoying for luigi but still manageable and it's the same deal but to a less harsh extent with ganon, kind of like how bowser suffers from them, but bowser can't really do ANYTHING about much of anything.
Never have faced a Falcon on the same level as my Ganon. But I can see where it would be a problem for him. Ouh. Ouch. That match would suck. I mean I've faced less polished Falcons as Ganondorf, but yknow, they arent anything amazing. I believe the match isn't as bad as you say it is, I don't know numbers but it isn't a blowout for Falcon.
Ganondorf basically requires you to play in peak form to stand a chance at even placing high in tournaments because he needs to be crispy with wavelands every time, getting every DACUS, getting your ledge dashes, getting your autocancels, getting your wiz foot cancels and not flubbing grabs in order to keep up with most of the casts mobility. Basically, you have to play perfect to place high with Ganondorf, and even then, he's disadvantaged. However, some fantastic Ganondorfs do show he can hold his own more then most give the character credit for. Check Arty and Vex. I believe he isn't as bad as he's made out to be ... but he's still bad lol.
I think its safe to say Ganondorf is objectively worse then the rest of the cast.
But *laughes* you poor, poor souls.
The King of Evil is Coming #3.5
Ganondorf basically requires you to play in peak form to stand a chance at even placing high in tournaments because he needs to be crispy with wavelands every time, getting every DACUS, getting your ledge dashes, getting your autocancels, getting your wiz foot cancels and not flubbing grabs in order to keep up with most of the casts mobility. Basically, you have to play perfect to place high with Ganondorf, and even then, he's disadvantaged. However, some fantastic Ganondorfs do show he can hold his own more then most give the character credit for. Check Arty and Vex. I believe he isn't as bad as he's made out to be ... but he's still bad lol.
I think its safe to say Ganondorf is objectively worse then the rest of the cast.
But *laughes* you poor, poor souls.
The King of Evil is Coming #3.5
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Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
It's not hopeless by any means. By my estimation, it's almost even, a little bit in Falcon's favor. 60/40 at my absolutely worst estimate.
Ganon received a lot of new tools for this match-up in PM, while Falcon didn't get a whole lot aside from some recovery buffs that make it marginally more difficult to edge-guard him.
Meanwhile, Ganondorf got a decent tool in neutral in Flame Choke, a faster f-tilt that leads to easy edge-guards, a u-tilt that quickly covers an area behind Ganon in which Falcon was previously (mostly) safe and can outright kill him at low-mid percents, as well as a slew of minor buffs that make the match-up more comfortable for Ganon.
Maybe...? Ganon has a solid range advantage on Luigi, but a smart player should easily be slippery enough to avoid just about anything Ganondorf does in neutral. Edge-guarding Luigi is fairly simple in this match-up, which certainly helps, but the ease in which Luigi combos 'Dorf leads to some brutal strings. The odd thing is though, it doesn't feel all that bad, despite that. All in all, I'd place the match-up marginally in Luigi's favor.
In all reality, I think the only characters Ganondorf comes close to having a winning match-up against are Bowser and Pikachu, but I don't really have enough experience on those to be sure.
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1FD
Smash Ace
Ganon > a fast character that basically goes even with mewtwo?
Whatareyounuts?
Whatareyounuts?
4cast
Smash Ace
Ganon Is a real fun to play as but in the right hands can be an absolute monster and can crush anything and anyone in his way
D
Deleted member
Guest
i feel like absolutely everyone will know why i'm asking this but
how are 37+ cast members supposed to actually do anything about sonic?
how are 37+ cast members supposed to actually do anything about sonic?
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Watching Ripple's DDD against Wizzy's Sonic was super depressing lol
Oh hai Ripple lmaooooo
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Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Yup. It's pretty much exactly the same as the Bowser vs Falcon matchup, and for the same reasons - except Bowser's an even bigger knee target. :/
Ganon at least has the flame choke and divekick.
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JOE!
Smash Hero
The fly comes to the frog, my boy
Bowser at least has super armor. I remember hard kneeing a Bowser and he just soaked it and side-b'd me through it.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
I think the opposite, I feel like you have to aggressively take stage control without over committing, once you have center stage he cant bait anymore meaning you can actually hit him.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
...but that doesn't actually work unless the sonic player is stupid?
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
The most frustrating thing to me is how hard it is to punish sonic. Up-b and dive kick both move quickly, start quickly, and have little lag and active hitboxes below him that make juggles difficult if they aren't frame tight.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Implying link boomerang players have to think
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Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
I mean it's not like they have anything else to do for the next 5 minutes, so why not
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
The people saying pika does well against m2 are the m2 players... While pikachu has upsmash/thunder, the speed/oos to deal with mewtwo, he still is fighting his cryptonite: range. For Pikachu, Mewtwo is a Marth with less lag to wiff punish, stronger recovery so its almost impossible to gimp, and off the top kill power that bypasses your good recovery.
Pikachu struggles against high priority characters like Marth and Mewtwo. Ganon happens to have that same strength (yes he does have strengths...). Pikachu is still really solid, but I can't agree with him going even with Mewtwo. It may be one of Mewtwo's more difficult matchups, but not even.
Pikachu struggles against high priority characters like Marth and Mewtwo. Ganon happens to have that same strength (yes he does have strengths...). Pikachu is still really solid, but I can't agree with him going even with Mewtwo. It may be one of Mewtwo's more difficult matchups, but not even.
Ripple
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
I main Pikachu, and I think that match up is pretty even, with a slight edge to mew2. Even though M2 has range, he has to actually predict when Pikachu is gonna come in, and if he whiffs its a punish. Pikachu also has the nair plane on Mew2, as well as Nair/fair into upsmash into thunder. Upsmash is very important because it negates M2's recovery. Pikachu is one of those characters who can get in on Mew2, constantly keep up the pressure, and reliably ko. Which is why I think that match up is even.
I also think that Pikachu beats Marth, for similar reasons.
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_Chrome
Smash Ace
That would actually be a good change in general for combos, and yeah it's pretty groovy lol.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Alternatively, he can hold down.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
If you want to crouch cancel go for it, see how well it does against pikachu's Nair into downsmash.
D
Deleted member
Guest
as much as i think marth is a joke, even i don't think he loses to pikachu
so we all just agree that sonic is busted and ignore it or what
so we all just agree that sonic is busted and ignore it or what
Paradoxium
Smash Master
But Ken thinks Marth loses that match up, so for once your opinion is challenged by someone with equal knowledge about the game.
But that none of that matters when Sonic is still in the game.
But that none of that matters when Sonic is still in the game.
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Foo
Smash Lord
I don't mean to be rude, since I have no idea one way or the other, but is Ken still relevant? I haven't really seen him in any remotely recent vids, and in the videos I have seen him in, he doesn't seem to do very well.