Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

petition for all characters to have zero gravity on final destination. and no oxygen. olimar will survive

s/os to ripple with that new avatar dgrayman is p hype

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I never liked sonic in any smash game.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I never liked sonic in any smash game.

 

[SpiderMad]

Sonic Battle style for 3.5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXfs7-7SKTo

Also long ago people didn't think Lucas' new dair was that good, his old dair was good, but his new dair is still good.

http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m2-6-lucas.339541/#post-15851525
"Here's what I do know, as a relatively recognized 2.5 Lucas main, I felt 2.5 dair was his best aerial, one of his best moves. I hear from other Lucas mains, post 2.5, that 2.5 dair was near useless, but one look at my 2.5 combo video, in which I landed it over 40 times in the video and it's utilized in over half my combos I feel prove otherwise. My argument isn't so much 2.5 dair was better, even though I feel that it was, no, my argument is that 2.6 dair is nearly useless against a competent opponent."

@Calabrel Do you still feel as such?

 

[Deleted member]

But Ken thinks Marth loses that match up, so for once your opinion is challenged by someone with equal knowledge about the game.

....lol just no

 

[1FD]

But Ken thinks Marth loses that match up, so for once your opinion is challenged by someone with equal knowledge about the game.




But that none of that matters when Sonic is still in the game.

I've played locals who might have a better melee marth than ken at this point
also I trust naus since he helps people like axe and anther and plays both chars in both games, and he says it's a little in marth's favor in melee and it could be slight advantage to pika in pm but probs only even (both have some to do with stages too)


Played smash4 today

PM is better, but smash4 isn't as bad as I was expecting, might chip in for a community wiiu or something

oh and played PM lots too
So good, so good
My wolf was getting bopped by lucas+falcon doubles team so I switched to kirby and just cided all day
it worked

 

[Player -0]

If you want to crouch cancel go for it, see how well it does against pikachu's Nair into downsmash.

Can't M2 just turn around HC Bair really quick or Up-Tilt or teleport or something dumb?

 

[1FD]

HC Uairs and Fairs cover mewtwo a lot better against Pika than his other stuff
quick and ranged in front of him with no commitment. Anything else and pika gets a free punish, utilts, bairs, or whatever included, even TPs are more dangerous against pika than basically any other char for every reason from being too small and fast to tp hc nair and too hard hitting and quick to punish if the tp doesn't connect.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Can't M2 just turn around HC Bair really quick or Up-Tilt or teleport or something dumb?

he can also fair pika out of the nair on reaction.

 

[Foo]

I know, I know, dead horse and all, but we really should talk about mario. I mean... just look. http://youtu.be/i8NIHYDfV_s?t=47s

(First two to show how little the character travels in two frames, so even if youtube is off a frame, it's still HUUUUUUGE)

four frames before the hit

Two frames before the hit

frame of hit

How is this even a thing?

EDIT: Watching the vid linked (for just a few seconds) on .25 speed is clearer than the screenshots.

 

[robosteven]

bring back 2.5 Lucas bair and dair please and thank you

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu is trash in this game, but he still stomps on Marth. Crouch cancelling OP. (To be fair it could be close to evenish)

He also stomps on Ganon.

He does better than he should against M2, but still loses solidly.

And lol at people comparing Ganon and Marth to M2.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Sonic Battle style for 3.5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXfs7-7SKTo

Yes

petition for all characters to have zero gravity on final destination. and no oxygen. olimar will survive

Yes

Pikachu is trash in this game

No

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu is horrible I think its just time to accept that. He can still be fun just not if you care about winning. Maybe 3.5 recovery nerfs will fix that a bit, but everything I said about him from the moment I touched this game turned out to be true. PMDT should just pay me for my advice next time B).

 

[Mean Green]

i like pie

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu is trash in this game, but he still stomps on Marth. Crouch cancelling OP. (To be fair it could be close to evenish)

pikachu is fine in this game, and he definitely does not stomp marth

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachu is fine he just can't succeed in 3.0 PM with his typical design. I prefer that he be bad with his traditional good design then turned into some monstrosity though.

Mean Green pika is worse than he was in melee or brawl (he was fairly good here) comparatively.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Breh
Axe
Anther
Pikachad
Shut yo mouth

 

[GP&B]

Pikachu where he is now will be great in 3.5. I don't think he needs any adjustments.

 

[SpiderMad]

1 decimal place away from top tier

 

[Rᴏb]

Pikachu is only going to get better once his grab release points are fixed and he's able to chain grab fast fallers again.

Other than that indirrect nerf, he's straight up better in PM.

 

[1FD]

pika got 64 backward arial kick y can falcon not hav 64 upper cut plz somebody tell pm team faclon sux nerfed from melee he has no invincible on wall jumping y not buff him other places than huh?

 

[didds]

you poster is best 1Fd!?!?!?

 

[Soft Serve]

Pikachu is only going to get better once his grab release points are fixed and he's able to chain grab fast fallers again.

Other than that indirrect nerf, he's straight up better in PM.

This
grab release points are huge for pika.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

On the the topic of pika, anyone know why the official melee match up chart says Mario is a bad matchup, doc isn't that bad, and why fox and falco are so rough?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Silly smashboards...

 

[Player -0]

You might want to refer to the melee boards for that.

 

[Deleted member]

PM Pikachu is obviously better than Melee Pikachu in pretty much every way and he is far from a bad character, but when compared to the rest of the cast in 3.0, I would consider him to be on the lower half of the tier list. I definitely think he'll improve with 3.5 though.

And Lucas doesn't need his 2.5 Bair and Dair. I never liked those moves and felt they were unnecessary replacements. Just because his current Bair and Dair need some tweaks doesn't mean they should be scrapped.

 

[Player -0]

3.02 Pika is still really good in my opinion. His DD, mobility, recovery, and killing power are pretty amazing. He doesn't really compare to the top characters in terms of jank but I think he's better than mid.

 

[Deleted member]

none of the well designed characters can compete with the current top tiers, thats why they're well designed. so yes we get that 75% of the cast sucks, drop it already

 

[Deleted member]

Pikas QAC is a pretty stupid mechanic. It's a mechanic that lets pika approach with a large burst of movement that has a hitbox attached onto it while being able to cancel it at any point... that sounds as toxic as sonic.

Pika isn't 3.02 super broken character level but if left unchanged going into 3.5, QAC will be given more attention.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Except, you know, ANY move beats it. There was a vid posted in the pika boards where pikachu was up being into the bottom of battlefield and smashville and moves with no disjoint are hitting him through the stage.

In my mind, qac is useful in recovery, running away/platform movement and baiting. Not really a viable approach since any active hitbox destroys it.

 

[1FD]

It was buffed in speed going into 3.0 and given a buffer window for ease, so would those be reverted, or what about it (if those aren't changed BACK) could be done with it? @Lunchables

Should be tier list speculation outside of top 5-8 obviously-good characters so discussion could be interesting again.

How about tier list spec minus mario/diddy/lucas/m2/fox/mk/pit/sonic

Who's top tier after THAT and how big is the difference between this *2nd top tier and the *real low tier?
It's probably sexy.


Gravytrain you don't approach with it as much as you do with anything else like dtilts or nairs
You just dance around and don't get hit and you're always a threat like a sonic style thing but with QA as a bonus to that speed. Just another tool in-line with the same spindash/tp silliness, but not AS silly because it's niche rather than centralizing (aka it has SOME kind of limitation other than 'can only tp same distance' and 'can only spin some directions')

 

[Deleted member]

Stuff like sex kicks beat QAC, but QAC lets pikachu get back on the stage for free if he's close enough along with the fact that the move has little commitment, since he can do it but not approach with it.

Burst of movement with little to no risk, eww

Edit: IMO, QAC should be impossible during the 2nd part of up b, only first. I think the only reason it can't currently be fixed to that is because of technical limitations.

 

[1FD]

You just don't want people to get passed your projectiles
You just want people to get stuck with big slow shields as they approach you
You just donwannaletpplhavefun
You just a jerk
With your....... arrows... and those explody things...... and your dairy products...


tldr cartoons don't like speed

 

[Paradoxium]

Sometimes the best way to edge guard pikachu in Melee was to grab the ledge, force him onstage, and then waveland punish. You can't do that in Pm, because it has zero endlag due to QaC. Pikachu's recovery got a mad buff from that, also in melee you could only sweet spot the ledge going downward, in pm you can sweet spot from any direction with any part of quick attack.

so basically a character with an already amazing recovery got a recovery buff,

And yea I agree, QaC was one of those things that slid under the Radar. I mean, you can break Sonic's down b with ANY move right? You can beat yoshi's egg roll with ANY move too right?

But it is probably gonna stay, bcuz brawl (Never thought I'd say that)

 

[Spralwers]

How about tier list spec minus mario/diddy/lucas/m2/fox/mk/pit/sonic

I think these characters are the next cream of the crop (the high tier), in no particular order:

Sheik
Marth
Wolf
ZSS
Tink
Samus
Snake
Link
Falco

It's hard to judge the distance between them and the top tier. Especially if you consider their MUs with the top tier to be more important than their MUs with the rest of the cast.

I think there's still a pretty big gap between them and the the real low tiers, to the point where aside from a few MUs that happen to be fairly even (like Marth vs Ganon), the high tier character has to lose to themselves in order to lose the MU.

I don't think the distance between high and mid tier is significant. But I do think the distance between top tier and mid tier is pretty significant, aside from a few MUs that seem relatively even, like Lucas vs Falcon.

It was mad hype to see JamieHR counterpick Neon with Falcon and win a set, and Brandandorf to CP Kaos's M2 with Falcon and win a set. Tiers for this game seem to be pretty weird overall. Some of the mid or lower tier characters are so polarized in their movesets that against some of the much better rounded characters, their polarization can actually even things out. Maybe even slightly win. Too early to tell.

One thing's for sure though: 3.5 Lucas, Pit, and M2 players are gonna hate the Falcon MU.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

In recovery, calling it OP is waaay more understandable. For approach, I just can't wrap my head around it being broken, it just seems to have too many draw backs. It is worth noting that characters with big hitboxes have a much easier time dealing with QaC recovery stuff since they basically prevent you from getting a downwards angle to cancel it without getting hit. So it makes Mewtwo/Marth/Ivysaur/Charizard more frustrating (range specifically, not the whole matchup) because your recovery gets really easy to edgegaurd. Also, its worth noting that it is cringeworthy how little Pikachu side b gets punished in recovery. Seriously, there is so much end lag, all you have to do is go deep. You don't even need a Pikachu level recovery, Marth can RAR Bair it and jump and up b back to the ledge as long as its a medium sized stage.

Again, I can understand the want for a recovery nerf on Pika regarding QaC2, I personally don't agree with that, but I also don't know where the rest of the cast will be. I think current Pikachu is perfect exactly like he is, but then again what do I know? I have zero tourney experience at the moment. From what I have seen, QaC out of just the first section would hamper most of what makes it so awesome one stage.

EDIT: I would just like to emphasize 2 things:

1) While QaC is a major buff to his recovery, it still isn't too hard for a lot of characters to stick a hitbox while he is on his way to the stage because of its poor priority.
2) The difference between, say, Sonic spindashes is the it is an air move, Pikachu still has to travel to the ground before he can cancel with a wavedash back, jump, or aerial. Sonic could react to a bad approach and jump (3 frames), airdodge back (10 frames of lag?) and be back to neutral. Its almost instantaneous. QaC is much more commitment than that. It still may be ridiculous to deal with, just food for thought.

I personally think its fine, but maybe that is because it hasn't been abused to its fullest potential yet.

 

[KFrosty]

On a random note, anyone else feel like Mr. G&W could use his parachute in his Up B again? It really helped his aerial game in addition to his recovery. I don't understand why it was removed, as it really wasn't game breaking.

 

[1FD]

sprawlers
your examples are likely just matchup related due to falcon being a very honest character where if he isn't broken for/against then it's very much a player vs player thing and from what I know jamiehr and brandandorf seem like the best 2 players in that group on a raw universal smashlike level

Faclon ndz usamsh64 plz