Tier List Speculation

[KayB]

Awesome money match between IMO the two best PM players at SCSYN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4tkXIl5SzY

They really show off what their characters are capable of.

Wow, you could literally make a combo video out of a lot of the stuff you see here imo.

 

[Overswarm]

game and watch has safe shield pressure, as well as a zero lag projectile that he can fire off twice in a short hop, each one having a full second of active frames controlling the air space, as well as a powerful grab game. So, out of your examples, game and watch fits the category of marth, shiek, and falco.

I haven't really seen any of that actually work for Gdubs though.

 

[Plum]

SHDB (short hop double bacon) would be a great addition if it weren't for the RNG trajectories. Sometimes it just gives you the worst trajectories and it does nothing for you, sometimes it gives you exactly what you need and it's great. Relying on an unreliable mechanic is just not where you want to be.
What exactly does G&W do for great shield pressure? I guess some of his moves can be spaced far enough out of range for OOS options to work against some characters (others give no ****s about how he spaces), but I find in general that his aerials and normals are just too sluggish to actually pressure a shield in the way that somebody like Fox, Falco, Peach, etc. can.

 

[Oracle]

sh neutral b is +7 on block, meaning i can grab you before you do anything. Fair is safe if I space it, as is nair. Bair and dair both have landing hitboxes, so if your shield has taken damage i can time them to shield poke you. As for random trajectories on the bacon, the huge amount of active frames and fact that you can throw out multiples quickly nullifies the randomness. They all go in the same general area, so you get to control a lot of air space. Generally between 4 bacons in two shdb, you'll get what you need.

OS you don't see it work because there are no good g&w mains besides dakpo, and hes been to two tournaments, and honestly since hes coming from brawl he still has lots of stuff to work on. once we get him trained and out there, be ready for some ridiculousness. In the meantime, you'll just have to take my word for it lol. You don't have to believe me now, but the results will show eventually

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Hmm, I was expecting Somic to rank higher. What weaknesses put him smack-dab in the middle?

 

[metroid1117]

Hmm, I was expecting Somic to rank higher. What weaknesses put him smack-dab in the middle?

I think it's the lack of first-hand experience against Sonic. After playing Sethlon at SCSYN and seeing Wizzrobe's videos from APEX, I'm convinced that Sonic is, at the very least, a high tier character. He certainly has his weaknesses, like not having that much raw kill power and range, but IMHO his comboing ability and speed make up for that and more.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Sonic's ability to stay safe while zipping around and ****ting on you is definitely enough to make up for being slightly lacking in kill power. The fact that he's got some really good gimping tools helps out a lot with that as well.

 

[Vashimus]

So bad matchup for Zard. Again.

 

[KayB]

Sonic = Spin and L-canceled Divekick

 

[#HBC | Joker]

and spring, don't forget about spring.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I have pissed off so many recovering opponents with that sacred spring.

 

[metroid1117]

So bad matchup for Zard. Again.

It's not as bad as people make it out to be; it's hard, but absolutely winnable.

 

[Deleted member]

So how bout them tier lists?

A:
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Mario
Peach
Pit
Marth
Jigglypuff

B:
Sonic
Wolf
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Ike
Toon Link
Link
Donkey Kong
ZSS
Lucas
Zelda
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Bowser
Snake
Charizard

C:
Wario
Pikachu
Luigi
King DDD
ROB
Squirtle
Ness
Ivysaur
Mr. G&W

 

[OkamiBW]

*quickly updates my Excel spreadsheet*

Btw, I actually agree with your list a fair amount, though I think Wario and Pikachu are a bit higher. But that's about it.

P.S. Go put your location in the Project M Player Locator Thread!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Why is Ike in mid-B-tier?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Why do people think Ivysaur is so bad, out of curiosity?

 

[Vashimus]

I thought the same thing Magikarp. He should be lower.

Reflex, wasn't it you yourself who listed all the weaknesses of the character and why she did bad?

 

[Overswarm]

Why are you confusing his question with a total defense of Ivysaur? She can still have weaknesses and be decent, and he can think she sucks and want to know why other people consider her bad.

 

[humble]

I'm actually really curious, as Reflex has pointed out Ivysaur's major weaknesses and identified why he as an experienced Ivysaur player thinks she is worse then people normally perceived her (now apparently they are erroneously putting her too low) Reflex, what would you change about Ivysaur?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Oh, I don't think they're necessarily putting her too low (though they might be). I still think she's toward the lower end of the list, for sure.

She has some stuff that's obnoxiously good and polarizing (F-Air size, air control with Solarbeam, and general edgeguarding ability, mostly) and a lot of stuff that's awful (Forward-B, N-Air should be good but is easy to escape before the end hit, super-low grab).

The main stuff would be to give her a moveset that allows her to realistically "use all the buttons." F-Air currently overshadows most spacing stuff, and almost all of her moves are CC-able. She needs differences in specific uses on moves that would give her a more dynamic playstyle, and she needs some stuff to encourage a stronger combo game. I don't want to go far in-depth for potential changes, as I want to test/keep some stuff for potential 3.0 hype. I've posted a little about it in the Ivysaur subforum, though.

That said, she gets camped to hell by opponents who are good at camping and has serious trouble fighting the most dedicated rushdown characters, while the optimal playstyle appears to be pretty boring and requires little adaptation. She's just in a bad spot all around, I feel, though she probably have some niche matchup wins and is pretty powerful if an opponent doesn't understand how she works and where her weaknesses lie.

 

[Vashimus]

Why are you confusing his question with a total defense of Ivysaur? She can still have weaknesses and be decent, and he can think she sucks and want to know why other people consider her bad.

Well **** me then. I would think a person who won a tourney with Ivysaur WOULD come to her defense yet he's said before that he thought she had problems versus a lot of the cast. Humble hit the head on the nail.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, I'm winning events where people have just begun to pick up the game; I'm at a clear advantage there.

That said, I'm doing my best to make the most of it and prove my current experiences wrong. I've figured out a fair amount of edgeguarding tricks, and a lot of combo stuff carries over from her Brawl follow-ups, which helps me a lot.

 

[Aenglaan]

Personally, I don't think Ivysaur is bad, but out of the other two Pokemon Trainer's (former?) Pokemon, Ivysaur is the weakest of the three. If its opponent isn't above it, Ivysaur really doesn't seem to have many strong options (other than its f-air).

However, Ivysaur *does* have amazing moves like its up smash u-air, and d-air.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

U-Smash and U-Air are good as combo enders. U-Air and D-Air are good for edgeguarding. Still, it can be very difficult to land those moves if the opponent plays to avoid Ivysaur's few setups.

 

[Overswarm]

U-Smash and U-Air are good as combo enders. U-Air and D-Air are good for edgeguarding. Still, it can be very difficult to land those moves if the opponent plays to avoid Ivysaur's few setups.

This. Playing against TravisD's Ivysaur, it's generally turned into a "hop around and wait until Ivysaur can be hit, then get him off stage and edgeguard". As long as I avoid getting grabbed/d-tilted or put into a position where a nair can shield poke me, Ivysaur only gets a few random one-shots in. Due to her lack of speed and her projectile not being a "threat" factor like Falco's lasers or Peach's turnips (which they can follow up on easily), Ivysaur can't force her setups to work unless people make very specific mistakes.

That said, I honestly believe that one of the few buffs she needs is her neutral B having less lag. Being able to reliably heal % and charge solar beam to influence opponents to approach (maybe a jump cancel?) might be enough. Currently her opponents have no reason to approach her unless it is in their advantage and if they play their cards right they'll get more out of their approaches than she will.

That said, when Ivysaur is in the air there is rarely a reason to use anything other than fair/nair unless the opponent is in the perfect position with a lot of hitstun. When Ivysaur is on the ground, I've found very few times when a f-smash or d-smash are actually the best option. Does she need to be less dimensional? I dunno, I'm not a good Ivysaur. I just get the impression that she is, whether that is important or not.

 

[Greenpoe]

Any consensus on who the bottom 5 are? I'm thinking it's Squirtile, G&W, DDD, ROB and Luigi. Some people think Ivysaur is bad, but Ivysaur seems quite good to me. She's got tons of excellent spacing tools between her massive hitboxes, ranged attacks and profound camping ability. Ranking-wise, she's probably right about where Falcon was in the Melee tier lists.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm starting to wonder what makes people consistently place Lucario so high. I really don't think he's as good as most people think he is.

 

[Archangel]

INSANE ENDING!

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I get why Luigi's shield broke, but snake's shield shattered from what seemed like full health. I know bowser's fsmash hits hard but damn.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't get me wrong, I love Ivysaur. I just think that he has a lot of really bad matchups. Poor projectile, poor mobility, gets combo'd to death, problems with CCing and camping. He can be annoying if you don't know the matchup, but the more people learn how to fight him, the worse it's going to become.

As for Wario and Pikachu, I wasn't really sure whether to put them at the bottom of my B tier or at the top of C. To me, Pikachu feels like he performs very similarly to Melee Pikachu, which is fine and all because he wasn't horrible there, but a lot of other characters have risen above that. I'll admit to not fully exploring QAC however.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm starting to wonder what makes people consistently place Lucario so high. I really don't think he's as good as most people think he is.

Lucario ignores shields and is good at staying commitment-free in a lot of situations. He's also got a pretty good combo game if people choose their options wisely. Also, because of the first two reasons, people really dislike fighting him, which may contribute to it.

 

[Aenglaan]

Due to her lack of speed and her projectile not being a "threat" factor like Falco's lasers or Peach's turnips (which they can follow up on easily), Ivysaur can't force her setups to work unless people make very specific mistakes.

Agreed. If Ivysaur's side b, Razor Leaf, had more speed, stun, and speed, it could be a fairly useful projectile. Ivysaur simply needs more offensive options. Being bellow its opponent isn't enough.

As for Wario and Pikachu, I wasn't really sure whether to put them at the bottom of my B tier or at the top of C. To me, Pikachu feels like he performs very similarly to Melee Pikachu, which is fine and all because he wasn't horrible there, but a lot of other characters have risen above that. I'll admit to not fully exploring QAC however.

While I can't really comment on Wario, Pikachu seems alright. He can do somewhat well, but like Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon, there's lots of threats that they can't fully adapt to.

Lucario ignores shields and is good at staying commitment-free in a lot of situations. He's also got a pretty good combo game if people choose their options wisely. Also, because of the first two reasons, people really dislike fighting him, which may contribute to it.

He has a much higher learning curve in 2.5b (much like his apperance in vBrawl), but both his u-Smash and D-Smash have been buffed quite a bit making the "on-hit-cancel" System work pretty well. From my experience, he can even do well against the Star Fox characters. He may not be as accessible as he was in 2.1, but he's still got lots of untapped potential (which is why I main him).

 

[Tmacc]

Lucario is still one of the better characters in the game, I think. People just haven't adjusted to his changes yet.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd like to see two tournaments where Lucario won or was even in top four.*

*facetious

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Even in Brawl, Lucario is a pretty solid character, but he still has a pretty small playerbase.

 

[Spiffykins]

Lucario ignores shields and is good at staying commitment-free in a lot of situations. He's also got a pretty good combo game if people choose their options wisely. Also, because of the first two reasons, people really dislike fighting him, which may contribute to it.

He really doesn't though. If he spaces aerials well he can sometimes b-reverse away, but otherwise he still needs to be smart about shield pressure to avoid punishes. His combo game is still fantastic, I won't deny that, but out of all his best KO options only u-air > up-b cancel > u-air off the top remains roughly as effective as before and the only new one is smooshing nairs into people offstage. I guess I can see why people would look at his combos and assume he's still great, but the more time I spend playing him the more obvious his flaws become. If up throw > bair (100% justified by his garbage grab range) and more accessible side-b spikes were restored I would probably agree with the general consensus, but as it stands I think people are overrating him significantly.

He has a much higher learning curve in 2.5b (much like his apperance in vBrawl), but both his u-Smash and D-Smash have been buffed quite a bit making the "on-hit-cancel" System work pretty well. From my experience, he can even do well against the Star Fox characters. He may not be as accessible as he was in 2.1, but he's still got lots of untapped potential (which is why I main him).

He definitely can do well against spacies, which I'm afraid might sway some people into thinking he's fine as-is. If you get them off stage, that's their stock, period. But that's not exactly something they're unaccustomed to dealing with, and the same cannot be said of all or even most of his other matchups.

 

[Greenpoe]

Someone mentioned earlier that Lucario has an appearance of being a hugely deep character without actually being so. That I would agree with. Once you get past the initial bump of learning the basics, he gets simpler the move you play him. Lucario has a lot of bread & butter stuff. His aura charges give him some excellent depth, but I would really like to see his fair get some additional hitstun.

Lucario does have that really sweet chaingrab that works great on most (all?) of the cast up 'til 35% or so though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't think Lucario has even the vaguest facsimile of being a hugely deep character in the slightest bit. In 2.1 he was dash attack -> anything and now he's tatsu and a few other moves -> safe retreat.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Umm, lucario doesn't ignore shields because of shield pressure or moves that get spaced safely on shield....

He ignores shields because he can cancel anything he wants into sideb and grab you out of your shield.

 

[Archangel]

So....Zelda is still a Low tier?