Tier List Speculation

[Scythe]

Actual viability. Not perceived viability.

You can say "Snake and Pikachu are the worst in the game" jokingly, but that just shows you're missing the point. From Jaunary onwards Snake has won 0 tournaments that have an entry fee of $5 or more or greater than 10 entrants. The only person to give Snake ANY points at all is Ralph Cecil, and he used him as a secondary to Sheik and got 2nd.

This shows actual results. Not fantasy land "man professor pro would wreck everyone" circle jerking. Actual results. I don't believe Snake is the worst in the game myself, I'm just aware that for the past month and a half he might as well have been. He's an unpopular character who hasn't done well in tournaments. Period. Done.

Instead of putting all your weight into one player's results and saying "this proves this character is awesome", you can look at EVERYONE'S results and say "oh, huh. It looks like there are lots of Ganon players but Ganon isn't doing very well. This must mean Ganon has trouble in tournaments". Things like that.

You want Snake's results to go up? Play him in a real tournament, get top 8.

As time goes on the results of the chart become less volatile. A strong showing of Snake mains could appear in the next month and a half and outdo Bowser and Fox's success. I am aware of this possibility. But after 6 months? After a year? It becomes significantly harder to ignore results.

To reiterate: the list doesn't say Snake is bad. It says Snake is not doing well. This isn't opinion, it is straight up fact.

The longer the list goes, the more those two correlate. This is the earliest iteration you will ever see, so this is the time when you should see the most change. You'll be surprised by how little does though.

super good post, agree 100%.

 

[OkamiBW]

Welp. This thread hasn't been giving me notifications. That's obnoxious.

If anyone posted a tier list after Kink-Link's and after the forum switch, then I haven't seen it, so I don't have it in my Excel spreadsheet.

 

[The_NZA]

super good post, agree 100%.

Here's the problem though with dumb threads like this. By that classification measure, the only viable characters in Proj M are Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, and maybe Bowser. Why? Because they are the only ones winning tournaments. Why are they winning tourneys? Because either
a. more people play them (so its a probability thing. If everyone plays fox, fox is likely to win the most tournaments)
b. Their metagames are easier to pick up (although glass ceilings may exist)
c. Their the characters people have the most experience playingUsing that "objective measure" a dumb thread like this gets created with tons of people are arguing how results prove 6 popular characters are winning tourneys. Then, impressionable smash players who have been playing in a culture for 12+ years that overvalues the top 6 characters and devalues everyone else exclusively flock to those top 6. Those top 6 show more results.

Thats why people are looking at individual players who have seemingly pushed the metagame for that character and they are theorizing why those characters are upper tier. I agree, its still a dumb exercise (because one player doesn't prove a character is good). Rather, I think it would be better if we chilled the **** out from the masturbatory grading, and we instead discuss character strengths, playstyles, matchups, and maybe even things that ought to be more powerful to make them more viable or increase the amount of play styles and metagame opportunities PM has to offer.

 

[The_NZA]

To bad, our results based tier list clearly shows Squirtle is and always will do more poorly than most characters in the game.

Example: This is one of the worst symptoms of a topic like this. The game in its recent iteration has been out for less than 2 months. The game has had its first 25+ entrant tourney like 2 weeks ago. Smash has for a LONG time had a culture of low-tier bashing or seeing them as a pure novelty (rather than as characters with potentially good matchups or a meta-game that could be developed to be good). A lot of that has to do with the fact that some characters in melee and a single character in brawl had obviously so many more tools than the rest of the cast(es).

In a culture like that, why would anyone pick up squirtle after reading the quoted statement? Why would anyone develop squirtle's metagame?

This topic is purely interested in grading characters instead of actively improving the game.

 

[Juushichi]

NZA, why exactly does that matter what impressionable players do?

There are people that are going to flock to a character because they are good because it makes their journey through a tournament easier.

Even in a game that is considered to be pretty balanced, you have people who gravitate towards better characters. I believe that no game currently personifies this better than v. 2012 of SSFIVAE. Some of the best players in the game are switching from characters that they are considered to be among the best of to characters that are going to likely give them more success. PR Rog is now PR Long (jokingly) because he now plays Fei Long instead of Balrog. Balrog is not even a bad character in that game, but he completely dropped Balrog in favor of a better character. For a while, in AE... even Daigo was forced to place time into Yun because of the dive-kicking problem. Infiltration has been generally cited as one of the reasons that top players are switching characters (not picking up characters, switching) and Akuma is not even considered to be the best character in the game. Cammy is, iirc.

What I'm saying is, most players are going to go towards things that they think are going to give them the best chance of winning. Some really strong players have character loyalty. StrongBad with DK (and unfortunately, he hasn't won a tournament yet!), Zhime/ryoko with Zelda, Professor Pro with Snake, metroid with Charizard, Reflex who is known both for Ivysaur and Wario, JC with ROB, Wizzrobe with Sonic, Fuzzyness and Lucario, K9 and Ness, etc, etc. A list is probably not going to change these things for these dedicated players. The "dumb list" is quite literally showing what is happening in this current metagame as it happens.

No one is going to know why a person is going to pick up a sub-par character.

You can even see this in a game like Brawl where you have amazingly strong Ness players, Lucas players, Ike players, Peaches, Wolves, Sheiks, DDD's, Lucario's, Kirbies, Luigi's and the like.

 

[Overswarm]

Let's try it again.

Here's the problem though with dumb threads like this. By that classification measure, the only viable characters in Proj M are Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, and maybe Bowser.

This isn't the case at all and the fact that you think this means that you haven't even read the thread.

Why? Because they are the only ones winning tournaments. Why are they winning tourneys? Because either

a. more people play them (so its a probability thing. If everyone plays fox, fox is likely to win the most tournaments)

Incorrect. We can adequately sample other characters in the top 8 and find that while Fox is a very common character, he is a common WINNING character. People simply playing him doesn't make the character have more or less potential. It is possible that a metagame could develop faster for popular characters, but I doubt that Fox from Melee is in danger of that as his metagame already has a several year boost. It is incredibly likely that a weak character will be picked up by players that are simply good enough to beat everyone else consistently over several months. While Fox is represented highly in usage it is equally high in points.

More importantly, we can compare "times used" with "points used" and in fact that itself is a chart. It is the first chart. We can see that Fox is used a lot and has a lot of points. We can also see that Falco is the 3rd most used but is 8th in points. Bowser is used 6th most but is 1st in points due to his success. Mario is used 5th most, ahead of Bowser, but is 20th in terms of points.

There isn't some secret society of top players who pick goofball characters and destroy the validty of such a list in terms of judging viability. People that pick ****ty characters lose to good people who don't. If people are all picking a good character and winning, it is because that character is good. If the character wasn't good or was easily countered, people would do that.

b. Their metagames are easier to pick up (although glass ceilings may exist)

This is correct to an extent. You can see that Melee's top tiers are the most consistently used. Fox, Sheik, Falco, Marth. However, this will be eliminated very quickly.

Look at this:

S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Wario, Lucario, ROB, Falco, Olimar
B: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Pit
C: Zero Suit Samus, Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda
D: Samus, Bowser, Ike, Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
E: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf, SheikZelda, Mario, Link
U: Sheik, Yoshi

This is in the very beginning. Brawl was released in February of 2008 and in three months Snake and MK came up to the top spots and stayed there for a long, long time.

June/July 2008
S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede; Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Wario
B: Falco, ROB, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Olimar
C: Ice Climbers, Wolf, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Fox, Pit
D: Zero Suit Samus, Peach, Pikachu; Sonic, Ike, Lucas, Toon Link, Ness, Zelda, Bowser, Jigglypuff, Samus, Pokémon Trainer, SheikZelda, Luigi, Sheik, Mario, Link
E: Yoshi; Captain Falcon; Ganondorf

Within a month of that time, we see Dedede (an easy-to-use character that hard countered a lot of the cast at the time due to his CG) drop. Many other poor characters drop.

August/September 2008
*: Meta Knight
S: Snake
A: (Wario, King Dedede), (Falco, Mr. Game & Watch)
B: Marth, (Lucario, ROB, Diddy Kong), (Kirby, Pikachu, Olimar, Peach)
C: Wolf, (Pit, Donkey Kong), Ice Climbers
D: Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, (Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Luigi, Zelda/Sheik), Fox, Mario
E: (Bowser, Sheik, Yoshi, Zelda, Link, Ike, Ness), Samus, (Jigglypuff, Lucas), (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

Meta Knight's dominance grows even more, and Snake is separated. Wario is in A rank and is there in 2010, two years later. Falco is around his correct placing. The only true exception is Mr. G&W, which we see continually falling because he's bad.

Did you also notice Diddy Kong and Olimar's rise over this time? Two complex characters that take significant effort.

Fall 2008
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, King Dedede
B: (Falco, Marth), (Mr. Game & Watch, Wario), Lucario, (Diddy Kong, Olimar), ROB
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Pit), Fox
E: (Ness, Yoshi, Mario), Pokémon Trainer, (Link, Captain Falcon), (Lucas, Samus), Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

It doesn't take long at all for this to be figured out. That list directly above in Fall 2008 is pretty close to the one 2 years later and really not too far off from today's metagame for being only 9 months or so after release.

Being "easier to pick up" might give them a boost for a month, maybe two, maybe three. But you see them dropping at a fairly consistent rate month-to-month and this is a clear warning sign that they aren't that good and then the top players that do play those characters switch off because they're on a dead end.

c. Their the characters people have the most experience playingUsing that "objective measure" a dumb thread like this gets created with tons of people are arguing how results prove 6 popular characters are winning tourneys. Then, impressionable smash players who have been playing in a culture for 12+ years that overvalues the top 6 characters and devalues everyone else exclusively flock to those top 6. Those top 6 show more results.

We can easily track this. More importantly, if you're, say, Chillindude... and you main Wolf. You're winning. You're not going to switch. As more people switch to the successful characters, you'll find that Chillindude's success will either remain constant (winning) or go down.

Chillindude's skill didn't change. If his success goes down just because people start picking better characters then those characters are good characters. Thus, they SHOULD be higher up on the list. That's how the list works. It literally measures how often they win.

Thats why people are looking at individual players who have seemingly pushed the metagame for that character and they are theorizing why those characters are upper tier. I agree, its still a dumb exercise (because one player doesn't prove a character is good). Rather, I think it would be better if we chilled the **** out from the masturbatory grading, and we instead discuss character strengths, playstyles, matchups, and maybe even things that ought to be more powerful to make them more viable or increase the amount of play styles and metagame opportunities PM has to offer.

There is a place for this and it's certainly a fun diversion, but it doesn't eliminate the need of an accurate ranking system.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

LOL at the idea that squirtle won't get results or win tournaments for no reason other than people saying he's bad on the internet. Ya know why he's not ever gonna have results? It's because he's terrible. If it turns out he's not terrible, the existence of this thread isn't gonna keep him being terrible. The people who play him are.

People think Charizard and ROB are not great characters. But Jcz, Oracle, and metroid are still doing their thing. This thread isn't stunting metagame growth. The people who are going to innovate the metagames of their characters, are not going to stop playing them just because the internet said they were a bad character. Look at Oracle, he puts exactly zero stock in this thread.

 

[Strong Badam]

My favorite part of this thread is how DK's placement on people's lists changes depending on how recently I've attended a major tournament. Not only do people overreact when I perform well, but then they like forget about it for a while. Then they're like "Oh yeah, DK" whenever I do it again.

Stay free Smashboards.

 

[Overswarm]

Judging by your videos it won't be too long before you're able to consistently be a 1st place threat. Most of the sets you lose have been against unheard of matchups and/or dropped combos. I'm interested to see Donkey Kong's rise in comparison to Bowser as they both have similar properties, but incredibly different styles.

 

[Oro?!]

Anyone who does take the lists in here to heart are pretty foolish. Everyones lists are personal and based off of first hand experience and speculations. That's way its a uh... speculation thread. Every list is biased and can't be relied on.

Its just kinda fun to see what every region, every skill level, and basically every other demographic thinks.

Edit:Strongbad is free.

 

[V-K]

Here are my tournament matches with Kirk and Vro from SCSYN if anyone is interested. I haven't really shown my 2.5 link yet(which is way different than my 2.1 link >_> lol).

They are good matches anyways, and Kirk/Vro are very talented players .

Hylian(Link) vs Vro(Lucas/Falcon/Ike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBavl1FX75g&feature=youtu.be

Hylian(Link) vs Kirk(Bowser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuNRUuqW_PU&feature=youtu.be

I feel like you should try going for more zairs against Bowser. He has such a giant hurtbox that it's probably very effective.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Crawl armor would go through, so he'd have to be careful. There are other options that would usually be more efficient.

 

[V-K]

Crawl armor would go through, so he'd have to be careful. There are other options that would usually be more efficient.

I'm not saying he should spam it, just use it every once in a while to keep Bowser a bit contained in his movement.

 

[Strong Badam]

Zair doesn't have much reward on hit, so even if you land it it's not like you've accomplished much. It also doesn't have much more range over traditional spacing tools at Link's disposal, so it's not that useful really.

 

[Sync8699]

Here's the problem though with dumb threads like this. By that classification measure, the only viable characters in Proj M are Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, and maybe Bowser. Why? Because they are the only ones winning tournaments. Why are they winning tourneys? Because either
a. more people play them (so its a probability thing. If everyone plays fox, fox is likely to win the most tournaments)
b. Their metagames are easier to pick up (although glass ceilings may exist)
c. Their the characters people have the most experience playingUsing that "objective measure" a dumb thread like this gets created with tons of people are arguing how results prove 6 popular characters are winning tourneys. Then, impressionable smash players who have been playing in a culture for 12+ years that overvalues the top 6 characters and devalues everyone else exclusively flock to those top 6. Those top 6 show more results.

Thats why people are looking at individual players who have seemingly pushed the metagame for that character and they are theorizing why those characters are upper tier. I agree, its still a dumb exercise (because one player doesn't prove a character is good). Rather, I think it would be better if we chilled the **** out from the masturbatory grading, and we instead discuss character strengths, playstyles, matchups, and maybe even things that ought to be more powerful to make them more viable or increase the amount of play styles and metagame opportunities PM has to offer.

My take on it is: enough people have had dedication to particular low tier characters to help us see pretty much every Melee character at meta-game (Gimpyfish with Bowser, Taj with Mewtwo, v3ctorman with Yoshi, etc.). But haven't you noticed that most low-tier character players have some high tier pocket character? Take Vinnie - he mained Mr. Game & Watch and was extremely dedicated to his character - but over time it was apparent that MGW just wasn't good. He switched to IC's and became one of the best players in the U.S...

Don't forget, also, that the popularity of character usage in tournaments is a two-way street.You can't say that because no one uses a character they have less chance of winning and leave it at that. What about match ups? Since the lower tier characters don't get used as often, high-tier character players don't have as much practice at actually FIGHTING them. Yet somehow, they still place as low as they do. It's because they're ACTUALLY bad.

I've decided to use Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf, Diddy, Lucario, and Dedede from the Brawl-only cast no matter what. Regardless of how high or low they are on the tier list, I plan to keep researching them, practicing with them, and expanding on their playstyles in any way I can. The way I see it, if no one ends up using them that will give me an edge in tournaments. People won't have a clue how to fight Squirtle. Also, I like to enter low tier tournaments, so a tier list would be nice for determining which characters aren't qualified.

Finally, I'd just like to comment on the fact that we're talking about PROJECT M here, not Melee or Brawl. I'd suspect that most P:M players are playing because they want to use an expanded cast of characters. I don't think the lower tier characters will have too much of a problem being popular. That said, I hope the P:M editors don't try too hard to create a balanced cast - instead they should strive for a larger variety of matchup probabilities (so like, random low tiers that do well against particular high tiers). Since P:M players are probably people who want to use more characters in the first place, the editors should keep this in mind.

 

[Hylian]

Zair doesn't have much reward on hit, so even if you land it it's not like you've accomplished much. It also doesn't have much more range over traditional spacing tools at Link's disposal, so it's not that useful really.

^^^^ Exactly this.

 

[Overswarm]

In my matches again link, I've generally been in the most trouble when he uses arrows and bombs effectively. Boomerangs are no big deal, but bombs have to be dealt with and arrows are irritating. They aren't so much effective as they are things I have to deal with, thus making me a little more predictable. Nothing is more irritating than weaving through Link's projectiles only to see it come down to a 50/50 approach of "dash attack or grab".

Shielding fortresses is also irritating. If you can bait them out, you get a free grab. Doesn't do too much, just irritating. Don't mind getting grabbed by link.

 

[-Ran]

The downside of playing underused characters to the point of being the face of them, is people aren't learning the match up for that character, but how to play against you.

 

[RvlvRBobcat]

The downside of playing underused characters to the point of being the face of them, is people aren't learning the match up for that character, but how to play against you.

So true, which is why people should not be casuals and play cave story more! (Terrible joke)
However, the people that main a low tier are sometimes more successful in tourney for being a wild card to others, because others don't know if you know your character well enough to compete against their "Good" character. Basically they expect you to be bad and get surprised with the mathup enough to be overwhelmed during a set.

Happened to me once, a fox main ran into my snake and he could do all of those pillar shine things. And all it took with snake was a well placed c4 to combo to death. (overexageration of skill) mybe a bad example seing how a fox is easy to combo. But he called snake a good character and I undoubtably agreed realizing he has an option for every situation.

 

[The_NZA]

Its silly to put the pressure of figuring out the metagame for a character on the shoulders of some random person who is going to pick them up as a gimmick.

Fact: Project M cast is more balanced than ever. To the point where, IMO, making tier lists at the 2 month line is mostly an exercise in "he said she said".

Fact: While the data might be able to look at the number of wins of a character/total use of that character, the total use of a character is going to be small for someone who is considered "bad".

Fact: Metagame advancement happens when a maximum amount of people are trying to figure a character out.

IMO these types of threads, when done too early, have more negatives than positives. Ness, Rob, DeDeDe or Snake might be in the upper half of the cast, and if you say they aren't, its on pure conjecture and relatively little experience. But it will almost be assuredly true if most people decide never to use them and instead choose to go the fox/falco/wolf route. I doubt 4 ness players will be able to advance his metagame at the same level as the 100s-1000s of wolf players. So really, making a tournament success thread is pretty cool but to make a tier list( which is better read as a "viability list" considering the smash culture) will more likely harm the metagame development for several characters.

The only way I see this being good is if a tier list makes people examine the weaker characters more and ask themselves questions on how to make them viable. Every character should be viable if they can be, because every character has interesting game play opportunities to offer.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Tier lists and matchups be damned, I play puff and gdubs because they're fun.

 

[Hylian]

In my matches again link, I've generally been in the most trouble when he uses arrows and bombs effectively. Boomerangs are no big deal, but bombs have to be dealt with and arrows are irritating. They aren't so much effective as they are things I have to deal with, thus making me a little more predictable. Nothing is more irritating than weaving through Link's projectiles only to see it come down to a 50/50 approach of "dash attack or grab".

Shielding fortresses is also irritating. If you can bait them out, you get a free grab. Doesn't do too much, just irritating. Don't mind getting grabbed by link.

The links you are playing aren't very good at comboing then >_>. I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on bowser. Especially if there are platforms I can combo onto. Dthrow -> jabx2(orx1 depending on if they sdi the first hit) -> grab -> repeat 3 times or so -> utilt -> bair/uair(combo branches off here into several paths depending on stage and %) finished by grounded up-b/fair/nair/uair/dair. Dthrow -> Dair also combos very easily on bowser at higher %'s for a kill.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

NZA, literally everything you are saying is just false. It can all be very easily refuted by the following.

More people playing a character will not make them better. It will not advance their metagame faster. It just won't. Period.

People who are smart enough to advance the metagame do not pick their character based on tier lists. They just don't. Period.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

In my matches again link, I've generally been in the most trouble when he uses arrows and bombs effectively. Boomerangs are no big deal, but bombs have to be dealt with and arrows are irritating. They aren't so much effective as they are things I have to deal with, thus making me a little more predictable. Nothing is more irritating than weaving through Link's projectiles only to see it come down to a 50/50 approach of "dash attack or grab".

Shielding fortresses is also irritating. If you can bait them out, you get a free grab. Doesn't do too much, just irritating. Don't mind getting grabbed by link.

Is it just me, or is there so much wrong here?

I know sure as **** I was annoying the hell out of everyone with the boomerang when I went to Eli's this past saturday, the bombs are pretty slow and easy to block, arrows are decent for gimping and the only other uses I've found is to get people to hold their shield and let it deplete or fire a no-charge arrow to put more crap on the field

And the throw, are you kidding me? There's so much to do out of Link's d-throw or u-throw if you're fight a spacie, people should know this

 

[Oro?!]

Link can CG spacies now at mid %s. Not only that but he still has dash attack and utilt combos out the ass. Bair leads to grab mixups out of uthrow at low %s too. Watch some old Germ matches. Even Melee Link has plenty to do against spacies.

 

[OkamiBW]

More people playing a character will not make them better. It will not advance their metagame faster. It just won't. Period.

People who are smart enough to advance the metagame do not pick their character based on tier lists. They just don't. Period.

Axe. Pikachu. Bazinga.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

ESAM. Pikachu. Boogaloopers.

EDIT: actually that brings up a pretty relevant point. Pikachu has risen up through the Brawl ranks almost solely because of ESAM (there are other good pikas, but none of them are anywhere near as relevant as ESAM). Pikachu is considered a good, viable character by pretty much everybody at this point, despite the fact that nobody really plays him. Even with his Top Tier placement, people still aren't picking him up and winning tournaments with him. This debunks pretty much everything NZA is insisting is factual.

 

[traffic.]

More people playing a character will not make them better. It will not advance their metagame faster. It just won't. Period.

Would like to hear your explanation. Metagame by definition can barely exist for characters with few players, since there would be even less likelihood of patterns emerging. The more players there are, the more patterns emerge, regardless of how or why they develop. I know to a 90% margin how a melee falco player is going to play compared to a PM squirtle player, with no previous knowledge of the specific player I'm about to face. That's metagame. There is popular play style, which is trendset by individuals and emulated by the masses, but whatever the majority of players do, is the metagame. So I really dont understand what you are implying by saying that more players do not develop metagame faster because it's specifically contrary to the entire concept.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Because if lots of bad players are using a character, that doesn't help everyone figure out what will work best. It might help you figure out what is passable, but that's not the kind of development that makes a character rise up the tier list. The kind of stuff that shows how good a character really is, is usually stuff that gets figured out by a bright few.

Learning tactics, advanced techs, and combos isn't even the main thing, either. Example, I have a decent Bowser. I watch people like Kirk and Gimpyfish play Bowser, and I can do all the same stuff they do (it isn't really that hard). The difference is (and this is a pretty huge difference) that if you played against my Bowser all day every day, it probably isn't going to help you beat Gimpyfish in tournament. Cuz Gimpy is a better player than me. My play is not top level play. The way you learn to beat these guys, is by playing them, or at least players of their caliber. That's how metagame develops.

The point is, you don't need as many players as possible. You need as many top players as possible. Top players don't care about tier lists.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Joker's got it nailed. Tournaments are played between players, not stages or characters. Especially if the game is balanced to the point that matchups are generally roughly even, individual player tendencies, adaptability, and decision making skills are going to be the things that determine the winner of a match.

It's still fun to have a thread like this anyway since it encourages a little more serious discussion on various characters that people otherwise might have absolutely no interest looking at their character boards or talking about them.

 

[traffic.]

"Metagame" would be that most bowser players attempt to emulate Gimpy's style. If I know how Gimpy plays, and I know most bowsers play like Gimpy, I know the bowser metagame. If you are talking about the combined efforts of the elite players to find the actual strongest combos and patterns and playstyles, that is not metagame, just the actual combos and those players' styles. It's a misunderstood term in a lot of games that players confuse with "actual best strategy ever" as if there was such a thing. Metagame has nothing to do with the game itself and simply knowing the trends of the players. If Gimpy was my only frame of reference as to how Bowser plays, and you don't play like Gimpy, you'd have an advantage based on the current metagame being "emulate gimpy" in this example.

So while I agree that great players will be great with whatever characters they choose because of their own personal style, strengths, and weaknesses. I play Squirtle, and Bowser. I am a new player to smash, having started in september last year, just under 6 months of play time. For that timeframe, my skill level has grown very quickly, but I simply dont have the concrete tech skills ingrained through years of practice. My biggest strength is that I am unpredictable as I don't follow any classical archetypes of play (again, the lack of reference) but am able to extrapolate very quickly the uses and potential for moves and characters as I have a very quick mind for understanding games and being creative within the confines. Personal style and being able to break the "metagame" habits of everyone else is what separates mechanically practised players and great players. Gimpy's play is not the bowser metagame, it's what separates him from every other bowser that follow the metagame. His creativity and application of Bowser is what lets him take that step above, not what moves he does where or when, as the masses argue over as if were they to do the same moves that they would be Gimpy.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

That's my point though. Having tons of people pick up Bowser and just "emulate gimpy" will not help Bowser grow and develop as a character. What Bowser needs to grow, is to have people play different from gimpy. That won't happen if you just get as many people as possible to play Bowser. It'll happen if you get the right people to play him. People who play him cuz they like him, and are more tuned in to the way bowser feels and works. Not people who picked him up cuz he won a bunch of tournaments.

 

[OkamiBW]

Axe. Pikachu. Bazinga.

ESAM. Pikachu. Boogaloopers.

EDIT: actually that brings up a pretty relevant point. Pikachu has risen up through the Brawl ranks almost solely because of ESAM (there are other good pikas, but none of them are anywhere near as relevant as ESAM). Pikachu is considered a good, viable character by pretty much everybody at this point, despite the fact that nobody really plays him. Even with his Top Tier placement, people still aren't picking him up and winning tournaments with him. This debunks pretty much everything NZA is insisting is factual.

Pretty sure Axe being the only Pikachu ever in Melee to keep doing well is a better example.

EDIT: actually that brings up a pretty relevant point. Why did you even bother to give a Brawl example when I already gave one?

#okamiisbutthurtfornoreason #melee4life

 

[Archangel]

The downside of playing underused characters to the point of being the face of them, is people aren't learning the match up for that character, but how to play against you.

seriously >_>. I'm like one of....7 Pit players on Planet earth?

@Overswarm's post on year 1 brawl.

Good post, good comparisons, I suppose the frustration that everyone feels right now is the feeling that they are absolutely correct and refuse to see otherwise. Now something I can say from personal experiences is....getting it right is more frustrating that being proven wrong early. If someone were to Call someone like Snake A+ tier and most disagreed...and then 4 years later everyone agreed...well I imagine this person would feel like smacking the hell out of a few people.

That aside your assessment is absolutely correct. The truth is always revealed in time....the problem with Project M compared to Brawl is it's simply not as big and there is no money in it yet. It's closer to the 64 community in terms of tournaments right now. It's got steady growth but at this rate not nearly enough. I feel like it will just be coming off the ground by the time smash U is released. Once that happens it'll be an even bigger struggle for Project M as a community.

So, Time and patience isn't exactly on our side in this case. The longer it takes to get things together the worse it is overall for the community. This includes not basic tournament rules and guidelines. I know everyone has their hands full especially in the PMBR and I'm aware that it's alot of work for free but....if some things don't start getting in order....well I'll just say there is an increasing chance that PM (as great as it is) could end up going the way of Brawl+....and that would be a shame because this game and it's ideas are just...too good to go to waste after so long and so many years of work.

Which reminds me. With the PMBR Mostly comprised of people who are testing and doing work with Coding. I wonder if they have/will appoint some experienced tournament OT's or players to put together an official ruleset? Anyone know anything about that?

 

[Hylian]

I'm in the PMBR and have a lot of experience TO'ing/Making rulesets. Some others in the PMBR do as well, though that is not something we are focused on at all currently.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

The PMBR making a rule set would essentially be the same as adding several new limitations to our game for our audience and supporters, the PMBR does not want to limit your experience in any way shape or form and wants TOs to be creative with their rulesets.

That being said, there are several TOs with a lot of experience, myself included, in the PMBR.

 

[traffic.]

That's my point though. Having tons of people pick up Bowser and just "emulate gimpy" will not help Bowser grow and develop as a character. What Bowser needs to grow, is to have people play different from gimpy. That won't happen if you just get as many people as possible to play Bowser. It'll happen if you get the right people to play him. People who play him cuz they like him, and are more tuned in to the way bowser feels and works. Not people who picked him up cuz he won a bunch of tournaments.

my basic argument is simply in order to reveal more of "the right people" you simply need more people. law of averages, the more players, the more good players. totally agree with the sentiment, but its all part of the mob development. once the scene is flooded with bowsers, many will take their skills to other toons, and some will get even better and develop new bowser styles, but the mass has to form before it can exodus.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pretty sure Axe being the only Pikachu ever in Melee to keep doing well is a better example.

What about -Chad- and N64? Mostly -Chad,- because I've spent a lot of time losing to him in the past.

 

[Archangel]

The PMBR making a rule set would essentially be the same as adding several new limitations to our game for our audience and supporters, the PMBR does not want to limit your experience in any way shape or form and wants TOs to be creative with their rulesets.

That being said, there are several TOs with a lot of experience, myself included, in the PMBR.

I guess the shortest response is Why?

Not saying I don't trust the creativity of TO's but there should at least be some sort kind of guide lines. Otherwise you might see Grand Finals played completely on Hyrule temple....and that doesn't do us(PM community) any good to show something like that to the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong...I think the rules to an extent in melee and especially brawl got to a point now where it's like....why? @ some of the rules. Still...a list of do's and don't's or at the very least just plain don't's would be nice imo.

 

[Overswarm]

The links you are playing aren't very good at comboing then >_>. I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on bowser. Especially if there are platforms I can combo onto. Dthrow -> jabx2(orx1 depending on if they sdi the first hit) -> grab -> repeat 3 times or so -> utilt -> bair/uair(combo branches off here into several paths depending on stage and %) finished by grounded up-b/fair/nair/uair/dair. Dthrow -> Dair also combos very easily on bowser at higher %'s for a kill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=36s
96% on Kirk to 102%. No hits post-grab.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=170s
29% on Kirk to 91%. 2 pummels, additional d-throw, jab, grab, d-throw, jab, grab, d-throw, u-tilt, bair, up+b

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=212s
12% on Kirk to 22%. d-throw, jab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=228s
47% on Kirk to 65%/81% pummel, d-throw, u-tilt, / u-air (u-air result of Bowser directly challenging Link rather than escaping; non-guaranteed even accounting for minor errors in play)

Game 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=359s
115% on Kirk to 143%. d-throw to dair on platform (death)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=373s
20% on Kirk to 83%. d-throw, jab, jab, grab, d-throw, u-tilt, fair, dash attack, u-tilt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=523s
0% on Kirk to 0%. No throw or pummel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=525s
0% on Kirk to 16%/30% d-throw, jab, grab, d-throw (missed jab at this point and bad down+b on Kirk's part allowed the combo to continue), grab, d-throw, jab, grab. (you get up+b'd and die here)


You grab him at an average of 40%, and the combo ends at an average of 65% (closer to true combo) or 69% (adds in semi-reliable chains that occurred).

Removing the outlier (grab at 0% and kirk mashed out before you could throw, I dunno if it is a guaranteed throw or not but we'll assume it is), you grab him at an average of 46% and combo ends at 75-79%

This makes your average damage given somewhere between 29% and 33% vs. Bowser in this game, which is less than/about half of the low end of your 60-80% combos that you say are the norm.

You had an average of 4 grabs per game (essentially one per stock). You have 2 out of 7 grabs (not counting the 0% grab release) that deal above 28% (your third highest grab combo not counting for chains; accounting for chains, your third highest was 34%). These combos did 62% and 63% respectively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=170s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cuNRUuqW_PU#t=373s

Both started at 29% and 20% respectively and also involved being directly underneath a platform, although the second one didn't utilize it.. They also both were non-guaranteed combos in their entirety (we are assuming that all jab/grab loops are guaranteed and are only accounting for standard non-grab releated hits), but are acceptable combos dependent on DI (which can be, and was, read).

Judging from the rest of your grabs, it appears Bowser is safe as long as he doesn't get grabbed underneath a platform (which can combo into dair if unteched and likely even post-tech) or between 20-30%. The range might be slightly higher or lower.

0% grabs definitely aren't guaranteed though, as Bowser has time to do something out of them (your 12% grab allowed him to spot dodge; this was not an error on your part, but rather him SDIing down into the stage and then immediately spot dodging). I'm unsure if the 20% grabs are guaranteed as he did not SDI down on any of them despite its success earlier.

Is it just me, or is there so much wrong here?

I know sure as **** I was annoying the hell out of everyone with the boomerang when I went to Eli's this past saturday, the bombs are pretty slow and easy to block, arrows are decent for gimping and the only other uses I've found is to get people to hold their shield and let it deplete or fire a no-charge arrow to put more crap on the field

And the throw, are you kidding me? There's so much to do out of Link's d-throw or u-throw if you're fight a spacie, people should know this

I play Bowser primarily so, different worlds and all that. When I'm talking about link's projectiles I'm talking from a Bowser standpoint. I don't mind the boomerang at all as it is slow and generally uneventful. More importantly, when Link throws a boomering he often thinks that gives him an opening to attack when it does not, which makes my job much easier.

The arrows and bombs themselves cause me no issues, but rather than I have to approach THROUGH them in a haphazard manner that can often lead to Link rushing me down with a 50/50 chance of dash attack or grab and me in a bad position to deal with it.