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Tier List Speculation

D

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since i last posted, i agree with overswarm, plum, and reflex, and disagree with everyone else.

having characters that are intentionally bad is also okay. they're called joke characters. like pichu. they make the game fun in a different way. we are playing this game for fun right?

i don't think that ness is intentionally bad. but he is bad. and that's fine. i don't think ness should be changed at all.
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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I understand that some characters are going to be bad compared to others, I assumed that you'd said that it's okay to design a character that isn't supposed to be a joke, to be a joke.

Yeah, I do think Ness isn't quite as good as everyone else, but as long as he's not so bad that he isn't worth using and all of his match-ups aren't bad, he doesn't have to be the number one contender. That said, it's still a little silly to intentionally make Fox and Falco as good as they always were while intentionally not allowing anyone else to get up to that level, even bashing some in with a nerfstick when they seem to be approaching it.
 

KayB

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Every fighting game needs low tiers. It makes the games more fun. That being said, if there's something wrong with a bad character that obviously needs to be fixed/balanced, then I think it should be done.
 

ss118

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I am appalled that Max thinks DDD is the worst character in the game lol

I don't mind there being bad characters in a game because there has to be bad characters. There is no way around it. If there isn't a bad character then we where are playing rock paper scissors, which is funny because even rock in that game could be considered overpowered while scissors is at a clear disadvantage.

However, I am of the opinion that every character should be enjoyable to both the user of the character and to that of the opponent. A character should feel rewarding to outplay with and outplay against. Yes that is the same thing, but w/e. I'm just typing stuff.

I hate when anyone talks about a character being good or bad or anything in PM because everyone atm seems to live in their own little town bubble since I haven't seen any major tourney from this game; usually a person's tier list is determined by who the best players use.

Maybe I'll put out my own personal list sometime, but atm I need more experience trying to play with and against characters. Random thoughts from me that seem to differ from other people:

Ivysaur is very good. Not top tier, high-ish.
DDD is very VERY good. **** this character with Marth's sword, Ganon's power and speed, jiggs air game(in some regards), heavy weight and a recovery that wishes you could kill him before 150%, and projectiles. Yeah, **** him.
Squirtle is a worse version of Luigi. Which is sad.
Wolf has potential, but has issues that Fox/Falco have 10+years of work on him.
Marth is somewhere near top tier, but has to worry about characters with "anti-juggle" tactics.
Mario and Ganondorf are both high-ish tier as well.
G+W makes me sad at how mediocre he is. If he was supposed to be a glass cannon, too much glass not enough cannon.
Sheik is a homo. Jack of all trades, master of some.
Ike is fine still.
Rob and Pit are fun and idk why I don't use them more.
DK and Bowser are still too slow. ='(
Lucario is amazing unless he is against Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik.

I feel like this game is too dominated by characters that have no bad match-ups. Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik still at the top easily imo... but that might also have to do with the fact that they have more developed characters than the rest of the cast. I'm moving to FL soon so hopefully I can hit the scene there and see what they've come up with.
 

The_NZA

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I get that people are saying Ness's design require his weaknesses to be "a, b, and c" (in this case, range, speed, and bad recovery) and in a game like this, those weaknesses count more than other things, and therefore he will always be bad.

However, I disagree that he HAS to be bad. All Ness players wouldn't mind if he was even with everyone else. We don't like playing a niche character with a lack of usability. What we like is a character we perceive as having great mindgames, amazing aerial mobility with DJC and a certain comboability with DJC. We'd still love him to be viable while playing on those features.

Honestly, you can retain his core character while giving him buffs to make him viable. Those buffs can be in the very areas that are supposed to define him or can be in areas that are traditionally thought of as his weaknesses (i.e. erasing a weakness or two).

For instance, if I wanted to buff Ness so that he excels in the areas he is supposed to be a master of, I might do it in the following ways.
1. improve his magnet so it synergizes with his djc, allowing him to aerially combo better. These improvements could be in the magnet hit trajectory, or they can play on making it a better aerial "wavedash", in the way that sinisterb currently uses it.
2. improve his djc so it allows for more combo freedom on characters other than spacies. We already got a controllable djc, so we can do rising aerials. Maybe if his second jump was a little larger, he could follow aerially even better.
3. improve his horizontal aerial mobility. I always imagined Ness to be a fighter jet in the air and be able to apply aerial pressure similar to how rob does (although obviously without the air dashes that rob has).
4. take his underused moves like yoyos and utilts, and give them a more prominent place in his play
5. Improve some of his mindgamey **** more, like his pk thunder.

The other option is that you can administer buffs in areas that we all perceive him to be weak. For instance: increase his ground speed game, and make it so his weakness's mostly are in his recovery and range instead. OR, improve his aerial range. They've already improved his recovery quite a bit and I personally feel it is exactly where it needs to be.

So yeah, I don't really agree that Ness HAS to be bad. If he doesn't have enough tools now (and I personally am not saying that he doesn't) there are plenty of ways to give him those tools. I hope the BR is always open to them. I personally feel they've gone halfway on the magnet but it still needs more work.
 

Kink-Link5

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So what we can conclude

DK is not near the worst character
DeDeDe is not near the worst character
Ness is not near the worst character
Game and Watch is better than we're giving him credit for there's no way he's the worst character
Sonic is ******** you guys he can't be bad
Have you even seen [____]'s Squirtle? And you're still putting him in low?
LMAO AT PEOPLE PUTTING BOWSER IN LOW STAY FREE
R.O.B.? In Low? Oh well look at that I guess JCaesar is just a broken developer using those dev hacks to make R.O.B. look good.
Lucas is duuuuumb he can just run in on you and throw out random moves no way is he bad.
Ganondorf in bottom 4? YOU'RE KIDDING RIGHT.


So **** it, there's no worst character in the game.

Every character is better than another character, every single one of them.
 

Oracle

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Kink jcaesar doesn't really make rob look good...lol

I like how problem make probably the best post responding to my question about ness and everyone just ignored it. Guess its easier to pick your battles than to admit you're wrong. Making tiers in this game is pretty pointless, so uh have fun wasting your time everybody. The rest of the good players and I will let our results do the talking
 

JOE!

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I think what we should be looking at is how "bad" the "bad" characters really are. Like, if it seems that everyone is bad compared to a select few... where does the issue really lie?
 
D

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Kink jcaesar doesn't really make rob look good...lol

I like how problem make probably the best post responding to my question about ness and everyone just ignored it. Guess its easier to pick your battles than to admit you're wrong. Making tiers in this game is pretty pointless, so uh have fun wasting your time everybody. The rest of the good players and I will let our results do the talking
Speculation and open discussion leads to character-specific or metagame advancement. If you don't want to take part in that, that's perfectly fine, but don't half-ass it and say that you don't after trying it for a few dozen posts. Pick one.

Kink, every character is better or worse than every other character. You may not understand which ones are better than others, why, or to what degree, but it's true. To say that there is no one worst character is one of the few ways to be strictly incorrect when so much isn't understood yet.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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I think what we should be looking at is how "bad" the "bad" characters really are. Like, if it seems that everyone is bad compared to a select few... where does the issue really lie?
This is pretty much what I think. There are a few excellent characters (spacees, marth, shiek) and the rest are all viable. Depending on what the metagame does (or what new updates are released) characters might shift up and down between the top tier and "the rest". Currently, Project M is more a battle of how well you know what you're playing or how far the metagame has developed for that character instead of characters being intrinsically superior/inferior. That's why we see "____ isn't that bad, have you seen so-and-so's ____?" because so-and-so knows their character. The only real difference between deciding characters is how easy it will be for you to get to tournament level (i.e. how far the metagame for that character has developed, see wolf in regards to fox/falco), what counters your opponent, and then just whatever fits your playstyle/personal preference. Once the metagame gets developed equally for all characters (which will be a long ways away), Project M could be an actually balanced and interesting fighting game, with a variety of characters in competition, rather than MK dittos or just fox/marth/shiek.
 

Oracle

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The only reason I post in here at all is to point out how ridiculously inaccurate all of these criticisms are. I don't really care for tier lists because all they do is encourage people to pick from a subset of 'good' characters, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of trying to make a balanced game. I don't see how telling everyone that ness is garbage advances his metagame or encourages anyone to pick him up. You make it seem like if you pick ness you're going to lose. And I would hardly call ignoring people who contradict you and constantly reiterating your beliefs on a game you barely play to be 'discussion'.
 

Kink-Link5

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Kink, every character is better or worse than every other character. You may not understand which ones are better than others, why, or to what degree, but it's true. To say that there is no one worst character is one of the few ways to be strictly incorrect when so much isn't understood yet.
I was being facetious since literally every character brought up as even being in the bottom 5 let alone worst character is constantly dismissed as "trolling" or some other nonsense. The logical conclusion stems that, since everyone thinks no character is the worst, every single character is better than every other character in the game. Nevermind the part where that makes no sense whatsoever.

but thanks for looking out for me Mow <3 U
 

AncientPancakes

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Sonic is rediculous. Maybe it's cause I play Bowser, but I strongly feel that sonic is has too many things going for him right now. If someone could shed some light on why they think that Sonic is not top tier, or what his weaknesses are, I would appreciate it.

I feel like his recovery is too safe and his down B is very hard to punish. I'm not a great player or anything but after playing the bowser vs sonic matchup quite a bit, I am curious to see what other players think of him right now.
 

RvlvRBobcat

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I think Game and watch does deserve to get out of low tier speculation. His offense and pressure game along with a buffed recovery should at least put him in mid, but his lack of defense (even though he has a bigger shield that fits his body now) and the trouble with dealing against pressure would keep him out of high tier.

As for squirtle, i had no interet in squirtle to begin with but you should give squirtle a chance for he is annoyingly good.

Check ou my youtube page for some reference videos on my friends (not scrubs i hope) : cluelesslink16
 

lil T

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Yeah making a tier list for this game is gonna be close to impossible(well for to have the majority of people agree that is)...IMO what we need to understand is that everybody in Project M is good... So when a "Tier list" is made "Bottom" tier wont really mean the Character sucks or have Lack of this,that,and the other...
But i just think we don't even need a tier list for this game...I mean it's coming to the point where It all depends on how you play your character to determine how "Good" that character is.
And that's how it should be.
With that being said i just need to get a few things off my chest...
DDD: IS TOO DAMN GOOD TO BE LOW TIER
R.o.b: IS GOOD AS F***

Charizard (especially 2.5) IS CRAZY GOOD
AND WHY THE F*** IS NESS,IVY,TLINK,BOWSER,ZELDA,AND ZSS SO DAMN LOW!!!?

K, now that i got that out the way... >.>

 

Archangel

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The problem with saying that Sonic is near the bottom is that it's wrong. It's not even a matter of disagreement it's just not a correct statement. It's a lie, It's a false statement and it shouldn't be repeated.

It would be like if I just decided out of nowhere that Fox was in the bottom 5 and then said everyone else was being counter-intuitive or intentionally debating for the sake of debate. When in reality I am just making a statement that is so far fetched it pains everyone to even discuss it. You literally don't know what you are talking about if you honestly believe Sonic is in the bottom half of the roster let alone bottom 5.

I'm willing to except the possibility especially as stages are finalized and other characters are fine tuned that the likes of DDD, Luigi, Gay&Watch, and Ness gravitate to the bottom based simply on the fact that other characters have ways to exploit their weaknesses. Then Characters such as R.O.B., Bowser, DK, Charizard, and Tink...I think they are in a zone where they can either remain somewhere in the middle or gravitate to the bottom next to the lowest characters. However it's possible depending on rules and stage selection that they could also go upwards to the upper middle or bottom top.

Bowser is a perfect example of a character who could wreck the best characters in the game in a confined space and get completely ruined in an open area. Meaning rules and stage choices will play a major role in his viability. He will end up as an A tier or a B tier depending on how that turns out.
 

SpiderMad

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Coincidentally wolf and snake are in that, and if I'm reading that right snake beats wolf.
 

Hylian

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SunJester

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People are worrying far too much about who is the worst character in the game. So far I think its easier to pull out who's going to be on top, but after that it gets extremely muddled and far too early in the metagame to say for sure who's bad. Every single character in this game has something good about them. No character is designed to be bad, and thus no character IS bad. Someone has to end up at the bottom though.

I think what we CAN infer from the discussion here is that the characters who are going to be the best in this game will have the best match-up spread.

Let's pretend that Sonic has a good to decent match up against half the cast, but has horrible, awful match-ups against the other half. If no character has as poor a match-up spread as him, he's going to be the worst character. That being said, he'd still have SOME good match-ups, and is still able to beat half the cast.

Right now I think its safe to say the Melee high-tiers will still be good even late into this game's metagame. But, as far as the other characters go, it will be hard to tell where they stand until we understand the match-ups better. In the mean time, play, test, and play.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I mean, Ivysaur is totally on the lower end of the spectrum. If you're denying it, you're probably playing a character who can't adequately go in OR adequately camp her.
 

Overswarm

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Here are my tournament matches with Kirk and Vro from SCSYN if anyone is interested. I haven't really shown my 2.5 link yet(which is way different than my 2.1 link >_> lol).

They are good matches anyways, and Kirk/Vro are very talented players :).

Hylian(Link) vs Vro(Lucas/Falcon/Ike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBavl1FX75g&feature=youtu.be

Hylian(Link) vs Kirk(Bowser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuNRUuqW_PU&feature=youtu.be
Does that bomb - hookshot thing actually combo into anything guaranteed if it hits? Like shield stun to guaranteed grab, bomb hit to aerial or dash attack, etc.? Or is it just essentially a space controlling thing.
 

Hylian

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Does that bomb - hookshot thing actually combo into anything guaranteed if it hits? Like shield stun to guaranteed grab, bomb hit to aerial or dash attack, etc.? Or is it just essentially a space controlling thing.
If I run after it combos into grab at low %'s and dash attack/fair/dair and med-high %'s. A lot of people also like to just run under it which usually nets me grabs and it's great for spacing even if it doesn't hit.

If it hits their shield it bounces giving me some really good shield pressure options.
 

Overswarm

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Odd question, but if it bounces off their shield can you just... hit it again with your zair?

I'm interested in the implications of Link being able to pull a bomb, jump, drop it on a platform, fast-fall zair to control the air with the bomb while running under it. :B
 

Hylian

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Odd question, but if it bounces off their shield can you just... hit it again with your zair?

I'm interested in the implications of Link being able to pull a bomb, jump, drop it on a platform, fast-fall zair to control the air with the bomb while running under it. :B

Hmm I've done similar things so I want to say yes, but it really depends on how much health the bomb has left. I know I can throw it at someone and if it bounces off their shield I can zair it. I was playing sethlon and he caught my bomb and z-dropped it, and I zaired it immediately and it flew into him. I think you can zair it twice but I'm not positive.

Edit: When you zair a bomb on the ground it slides forward. So zairing it on a platform would push it off the edge of the platform. I actually can drop a bomb on the ground, and then do the z-drop zair and hit both at the same time and the one in the air flys at the same arc while the one on the ground slides across the ground right under it. I can do this with 3 bombs at the same time(and have before in a match) but it's incredibly hard to do and set up so it's not very useful.
 

Kink-Link5

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So would anyone with half a sense of realism.

The real PM Tier list (And anyone who says otherwise is clearly a ****** like that Bunni loser)

A Tier
Bowser
Fox

B Tier
Zelda/Sheik
Wolf
Peach
Captain Falcon
Marth
Falco
Link
Sonic
Charizard
Luigi

C Tier
Ness
Zelda
Ike
R.O.B.
Ganondorf

D Tier
DK
Ivysaur
Mario
Pit
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
SamusZeroSuit

E Tier
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Wario
Mr. Game and Watch

F Tier
Snake
DeDeDe
Lucario
Squirtle

G Tier
Pikachu
 

Overswarm

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Overswarm what do you mean show actual viabilty by that?

Snake and Pikachu are the worst characters in the game guys.
Actual viability. Not perceived viability.

You can say "Snake and Pikachu are the worst in the game" jokingly, but that just shows you're missing the point. From Jaunary onwards Snake has won 0 tournaments that have an entry fee of $5 or more or greater than 10 entrants. The only person to give Snake ANY points at all is Ralph Cecil, and he used him as a secondary to Sheik and got 2nd.

This shows actual results. Not fantasy land "man professor pro would wreck everyone" circle jerking. Actual results. I don't believe Snake is the worst in the game myself, I'm just aware that for the past month and a half he might as well have been. He's an unpopular character who hasn't done well in tournaments. Period. Done.

Instead of putting all your weight into one player's results and saying "this proves this character is awesome", you can look at EVERYONE'S results and say "oh, huh. It looks like there are lots of Ganon players but Ganon isn't doing very well. This must mean Ganon has trouble in tournaments". Things like that.

You want Snake's results to go up? Play him in a real tournament, get top 8.

As time goes on the results of the chart become less volatile. A strong showing of Snake mains could appear in the next month and a half and outdo Bowser and Fox's success. I am aware of this possibility. But after 6 months? After a year? It becomes significantly harder to ignore results.

To reiterate: the list doesn't say Snake is bad. It says Snake is not doing well. This isn't opinion, it is straight up fact.

The longer the list goes, the more those two correlate. This is the earliest iteration you will ever see, so this is the time when you should see the most change. You'll be surprised by how little does though.
 

Kink-Link5

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To bad, our results based tier list clearly shows Squirtle is and always will do more poorly than most characters in the game.

Peach is the best character in Melee because results. You're delusional to think that Fox or heaven forbid Falco are better than her.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
how about we order perceived viability tiers

and not order characters in them
tiers just separate characters into groups of relative goodness, it can be generally assumed that the characters within the tiers are equal anyway. when we order tiers, all we're actually saying is that we either don't know what we're doing or that melee has 26 individual tiers and that some characters are closer than others? you get what i'm trying to say.
 

Kink-Link5

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tiers just separate characters into groups of relative goodness, it can be generally assumed that the characters within the tiers are equal anyway. when we order tiers, all we're actually saying is that we either don't know what we're doing or that melee has 26 individual tiers and that some characters are closer than others? you get what i'm trying to say.
I got you. This is a lot of the reason I find it silly when people complain about who is in bottom five or whatever when I group characters into large A, B, and C classes and Top, Very High, High, and "Mid" tiers. I have a bottom 11 or 9 or whatever, not a bottom 5.
 

Overswarm

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To bad, our results based tier list clearly shows Squirtle is and always will do more poorly than most characters in the game.

Peach is the best character in Melee because results. You're delusional to think that Fox or heaven forbid Falco are better than her.
If Peach is consistently winning at such a level that the character would get more points than Fox or Falco, then yes. This would be the case. Personal feeling is irrelevant to success. It would have to be weighted properly and observed over a period of time, but it is entirely possible.

That's the cool thing about recording data. It doesn't care what you think, it's just right.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Kink, stop getting so butthurt over the fact that OS is compiling data that implies things that you disagree with. You're acting like the fact that the data doesn't immediately display trends that you agree with means it must be complete bunk. You also need to get it through your thick skull that he's not trying to make a tier list based on it. Bowser could win every tournament from here to eternity, it won't mean he's the be all end all best character. It just means he's winning, because he is. You can't just say "well people will figure out how to beat Bowser, cuz he has X weakness". If he keeps winning, that means people aren't figuring it out. And if they do figure out how to beat him? You'll see it in the data.
 
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