Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

At immediately low %, it can be hard for Dthrow to go into anything meaningful. Past 30 or so for the super duper heavy characters you will have much better options, because they will finally be in stun for long enough. I don't like jab into regrab on Link, at least not anymore with the grapple box changes. Different SDI and options to take into account, doesn't seem that guaranteed.

I don't have the same Dthrow boner most people have for Link, even though it's clearly pretty good. Mario just tends to do the idea better. With the regrab ability hit a bit, it's not as ridic lol.

 

[Overswarm]

Given Link's inability to quickly change his vertical velocity (if you're out at a 45 degree angle, you're probably safe) his d-throw is still his best for combo potential, but playing against Link and seeing it in practice on youtube videos all combined with Hylian's gross exaggeration just makes me fell validated in not being afraid of being grabbed by Link.

His dash attack is pretty good on-hit though.

 

[Hylian]

*Shrugs* If you want to asses my entire combo game from one set go ahead, can't believe you would support your logic with that though lmao.

 

[Overswarm]

*Shrugs* If you want to ***** my entire combo game from one set go ahead, can't believe you would support your logic with that though lmao.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBavl1FX75g&feature=youtu.be

Vro

Link vs. Lucas

7% to 13% d-throw (missed grab after)

7% to 47% d-throw, u-tilt, u-tilt onto platform, u-air off missed tech

47% to 52% d-throw (missed grab after)

65% to 75% d-throw, grab, d-throw

16% to 21% d-throw

9% to 14% d-throw (missed grab after)

21% to 43% d-throw, u-tilt onto platform, first hit of bair

Link vs. Captain Falcon

20% to 26% d-throw

26% to 40% d-throw, u-tilt (missed), u-tilt (falcon rolls into it)

Also learned that falcon can punish 2nd hit of Link's forward smash with a knee. That's interesting.

Link vs. Ike

0% to 15% d-throw, u-tilt, u-smash (missed)

20% d-throw, u-tilt (missed)

40% to 62% d-throw, u-tilt, bair soft hit

18% to 70% d-throw, jab, jab, grab, u-throw, u-air (land on platform), u-smash [highest damaging combo, 52%]

70% 90% d-throw, back-air

Combos that meet your 60-80% range on Bowser from this set: 0
Combos that can be considered significant: 2

Grabs that lead to throws in this set: 14 (average of 4.6 grabs per game, which fits nicely next to the 4 per game in the Bowser set, especially given the decrease in skill of the opponent)

You forget that we came to the discussion from me already having experience with Link. I typically played against Sliq's Link in Melee and he was pretty good, and he didn't get combos off in that manner consistently no matter who I played (including Bowser). Playing against Link or as Link in Project M results in similar combos as in Melee, and the results I've seen so far both in video and in practice were so far removed from your 60-80% d-throw combos that the only logical conclusions were that you were severely over-estimating yourself or that you were some Link prodigy that had some epic tournament wins awaiting him.

Watching the two sets provided from the recent tournaments, I'm gonna have to go with the former. It's one thing to say "you must be playing against bad people if you aren't scared of Link's down throw, I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on bowser ", but it's an entirely different beast to say it after your most recent tournament set against that character consisted of one d-throw kill (dair on platform, no tech), and only two significant combos against the character you're mentioning. Looking at the other set, I do not think this is a fluke.

It's okay to say 60-80% combos are possible, but they rely almost strictly on the existence of platforms, poor DI, and poor choices on your opponent's part. Of the 2 combos that did meet your 60-80%, they were influenced heavily by DI and the stage layout. Even the significant ones in your other set were set apart from others due to the location of the grab.

Being accurate at this point in the metagame is important. I'm not ****ting on your combo game, I'm describing it; I'm just using sources rather than heresay. Misinformation does no good. We're not machines and our combos that rely on reading DI aren't going to come out perfectly every time. Link mains should know that d-throw typically isn't giving people 60-80% of damage because that would be insane.

It's like when I first started playing Melee and got discouraged because Darkrain 0-deathed us all and I could only do it by jumping straight up and dairing people and tech chasing that way into a knee. Turns out Darkrain didn't 0-death nearly as often as I thought he did, I just remembered the awesome combos and my brain said "that **** is standard". Would have saved me a lot of time starting out if someone had said "Yeah, Falcon doesn't really 0-death. He more starts something then follows up with hard reads and fast reflexes".

 

[Hylian]

Uh, I specifically said on Bowser. I play against a bowser main all the time which is where the statements come from. Link has 60-80% combos on bowser when I don't choke. Also, you don't need to jab regrab, you can straight up chaingrab bowser.

Spoiler

I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on bowser.

grab on bowser.

bowser.

 

[Overswarm]

Uh, I specifically said on Bowser. I play against a bowser main all the time which is where the statements come from. Link has 60-80% combos on bowser when I don't choke. Also, you don't need to jab regrab, you can straight up chaingrab bowser.

Then " I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on bowser." should have been " I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on this one guy I play who mains bowser."

Because it clearly wasn't the case and had nothing to do with choking. The videos of it happening are right there. You don't get 60-80% combos on Bowser consistently, you get them on occasion. Go play a few friendlies with your buddy and count how often it happens. If you're getting them 100% of the time, congratulations! Your opponent is probably DIing poorly.

Because current evidence suggests you want that d-throw between 20-30% only until he's above ~110% and below a platform (for dair kill).

 

[Hylian]

Then "I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on bowser." should have been "I generally get 60-80% combos off a grab on this one guy I play who mains bowser."

Because it clearly wasn't the case and had nothing to do with choking. The videos of it happening are right there. You don't get 60-80% combos on Bowser consistently, you get them on occasion. Go play a few friendlies with your buddy and count how often it happens. If you're getting them 100% of the time, congratulations! Your opponent is probably DIing poorly.

Because current evidence suggests you want that d-throw between 20-30% only until he's above ~110% and below a platform (for dair kill).

Right, because I've never played other bowsers before. This is stupid, you're seriously basing your assumption off ONE SET. I choked during many combos during that set, at one point I throw him and just jump and do nothing. You can't tell me I only get them on occasion because YOU'VE ONLY SEEN ME PLAY ONE SET. Jesus. Great sample size you've got there for your "current evidence".

Edit: Link only has 3 hit combos on most of the cast out of dthrow if they DI correctly, I tell this to people all the time when they play me and I combo the **** out of them because they don't DI correctly. This is not the case with bowser.

Double Edit: The lengths you will go to to win a trivial argument are astounding. I can't believe you went through my set with Vro noting every dthrow combo for absolutely no reason lmao.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

this is a pretty typical argument with OS, actually. This isn't him going to great lengths, this is him arguing all regular like.

 

[Overswarm]

No reason? I do it for knowledge. I played as Link and have been played against as Link in both Melee and Project M and what you described wasn't even close to the norm in either. The implications of it being correct are large since Bowser's most common OoS option (fortress) can be easily grabbed by Link on many otherwise safe occasions. If there is something out of Link's d-throw that I'm just unaware of, I want to know! But I saw the same stuff I saw in Melee. Lots of d-throws, jabs, u-tilts, occasional u-smash or u-air.

I'm not basing my assumptions off of one set; I'm basing my assumptions off of a history of exaggerated claims from players in the past, my results playing as and against Link with various characters, my history with Bowser being comboed, and both your video sets and others I've seen involving Link (although there aren't many 2.5 ones).

I did the same thing when you said you recovered a ridiculous amount of % with Ivysaur. My brother plays Ivysaur most commonly and doesn't heal nearly as much as you described so we started keeping track and even just tracked how many seconds/attacks it takes to charge/heal if you could hypothetically land them. I just didn't post about it because no one really believed it anyway, I'm just thorough.

People like to spout BS, I like to call 'em out on it. If you want to keep believing you get these awesome 60-80% combos off against Bowser with Link, go for it. I'd just ask you not to make other Link mains think they're doing something wrong by not getting them =P

this is a pretty typical argument with OS, actually. This isn't him going to great lengths, this is him arguing all regular like.

Hey, you get to see me outside of DGames now.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I thought seeing you outside of dgames would involve less walls. I was sorely mistaken.

 

[Overswarm]

I thought seeing you outside of dgames would involve less walls. I was sorely mistaken.

You get MORE walls.

And data. I thought about posting the info I had on DGames players but decided against it because I thought people might stop playing mafia.

Spoiler: no one actually has a successful ratio of lynching mafia and there is no correlation to any one person's presence and victory

There is however a correlation to certain players being mafia and winning. ;D

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I currently have a 100% win rate as mafia

 

[Hylian]

No reason? I do it for knowledge. I played as Link and have been played against as Link in both Melee and Project M and what you described wasn't even close to the norm in either. The implications of it being correct are large since Bowser's most common OoS option (fortress) can be easily grabbed by Link on many otherwise safe occasions. If there is something out of Link's d-throw that I'm just unaware of, I want to know! But I saw the same stuff I saw in Melee. Lots of d-throws, jabs, u-tilts, occasional u-smash or u-air.

I'm not basing my assumptions off of one set; I'm basing my assumptions off of a history of exaggerated claims from players in the past, my results playing as and against Link with various characters, my history with Bowser being comboed, and both your video sets and others I've seen involving Link (although there aren't many 2.5 ones).

I did the same thing when you said you recovered a ridiculous amount of % with Ivysaur. My brother plays Ivysaur most commonly and doesn't heal nearly as much as you described so we started keeping track and even just tracked how many seconds/attacks it takes to charge/heal if you could hypothetically land them. I just didn't post about it because no one really believed it anyway, I'm just thorough.

People like to spout BS, I like to call 'em out on it. If you want to keep believing you get these awesome 60-80% combos off against Bowser with Link, go for it. I'd just ask you not to make other Link mains think they're doing something wrong by not getting them =P



Hey, you get to see me outside of DGames now.

Fortress is not easy to grab at all if they hit your shield...Link's run speed and grab are way too slow to follow bowser(unless he just sits in front of you or trys to cross you up for some reason). It's possible I think just not very easy(if possible at all, haven't really tested frames for it).

 

[Overswarm]

Fortress is not easy to grab at all if they hit your shield...Link's run speed and grab are way too slow to follow bowser(unless he just sits in front of you or trys to cross you up for some reason). It's possible I think just not very easy(if possible at all, haven't really tested frames for it).

You should be able to grab Bowser out of a fortress hitting your shield, even on start.

Edit: Just tested this; Bowser can get out of grab range by a very brief interval by up+bing the shield and immediately holding away for the entire duration. Up+ing through Link results in an automatic grab.

While Bowser can get out of the distance of a grab and can put up a shield / spot dodge / jab / whatever by fortressing away, it's close enough to where it puts Bowser in danger of being grabbed regardless. It is NOT guaranteed if it is held immediately away though; in all other instances it is guaranteed save for going to the ledge.

 

[Oro?!]

0-80% is not an understatement at all OS. While it will not happen every time, and requires proper execution in conjunction with DI adjustments and following. It is not a longshot to say that Link can reliably kill bowser in 1 grab combo-> reset-> edgegaurd. Since this is just theory I guess I will play Kirk with a bunch of Link tonight and give you some Twitch VOD links.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

shut up @ hylian and zoverswarm LOL

bickering over nothing

link can combo bowser pretty well off a grab (like most characters) but can't regularly get a full blown kill off of the grab (like most characters) and we can leave it at that

 

[Hylian]

You should be able to grab Bowser out of a fortress hitting your shield, even on start.

Edit: Just tested this; Bowser can get out of grab range by a very brief interval by up+bing the shield and immediately holding away for the entire duration. Up+ing through Link results in an automatic grab.

While Bowser can get out of the distance of a grab and can put up a shield / spot dodge / jab / whatever by fortressing away, it's close enough to where it puts Bowser in danger of being grabbed regardless. It is NOT guaranteed if it is held immediately away though; in all other instances it is guaranteed save for going to the ledge.

This is what I figured from my experience against bowsers. I can't usually grab them or I have to get a read if they up-b my shield unless they try to cross me up.

 

[Professor Pro]

Actual viability. Not perceived viability.

You can say "Snake and Pikachu are the worst in the game" jokingly, but that just shows you're missing the point. From Jaunary onwards Snake has won 0 tournaments that have an entry fee of $5 or more or greater than 10 entrants. The only person to give Snake ANY points at all is Ralph Cecil, and he used him as a secondary to Sheik and got 2nd.

Not true, i've won 3 tournaments prior that date and 2 after that date with attendance including Fuzzyness, Jolteon and Alpha Dash with Snake...just saying.

It's not your fault for not knowing though, it is my communities fault for failing to post results online for others to see.

Got Leffen and a few other Europeans coming down in March to the UK who should be entering Project M so I hope to get in a good amount of games with Snake vs them and hopefully push him up on that list
Matches will be recorded obv

 

[Hylian]

Awesome money match between IMO the two best PM players at SCSYN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4tkXIl5SzY

They really show off what their characters are capable of.

 

[Doctor X]

I'd like to step in a bit in defense of Overswarm's apparent mission here-- not just because he's a friend of mine but also because I agree with him.

Hylian, I know you've been around long enough to remember how long it took the Melee community to realize that you could smash-DI out of Fox's uair, and how long it took for it to become something that people actually did. As a result we have a whole lot of old tournament videos where you can watch a Fox abuse poorly-placed uairs and think, "Really, people, you lost to this guy?"

That's a mistake that ought not be repeated. If we're going to say that a combo is truly a combo, we should test the hell out of it. If we're going to say that Link can get 80% on Bowser from a grab, regardless of DI, SDI, or other means of escape, then we probably should produce concrete examples instead of anecdotes, with all of Bowser's possible options considered. For people interested in truly understanding what PM Link is capable of doing against PM Bowser, this is not a trivial argument. :\

 

[Juushichi]

Stop ****ting on his combo ability from just two sets.

PM Link can CG and then get a reset to kill PM Bowser, fray. Just believe him (and Oro?!).

 

[Overswarm]

Not true, i've won 3 tournaments prior that date and 2 after that date with attendance including Fuzzyness, Jolteon and Alpha Dash with Snake...just saying.

It's not your fault for not knowing though, it is my communities fault for failing to post results online for others to see.

Got Leffen and a few other Europeans coming down in March to the UK who should be entering Project M so I hope to get in a good amount of games with Snake vs them and hopefully push him up on that list
Matches will be recorded obv

Yeah, the list is limited to what we get in Metroid's result thread. It is a limitation of it, but it's all we've got.

I know you've done well recently. If you post results of a tournament that happened after Jan 1st and it can be verified, I can still add it. Just put it in Metroid's thread and when he updates, I update.

 

[metroid1117]

I've finally updated by the way, so you guys should check out what's been added .

Awesome money match between IMO the two best PM players at SCSYN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4tkXIl5SzY

They really show off what their characters are capable of.

I only got 7th, I don't know what you're talking about >.>.

 

[Oro?!]

Good guy Metroid sandbags and then promotes players that beat him.

 

[CORY]

Awesome money match between IMO the two best PM players at SCSYN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4tkXIl5SzY

They really show off what their characters are capable of.

need to remember to watch all of those sets from that tourney at some point...

 

[Vashimus]

Since when can Charizard do a Ken combo? Guess that new fair is putting in work.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Good guy Metroid sandbags and then promotes players that beat him.

Both players made some silly mistakes and choices (Sonic taking Zard to GHZ, neither player meteor canceling very proficiently, unless Sonic's fair spikes now and I somehow missed that).

Metroid your act doesn't fool me I'm coming to lose to you once I can figure out how to sail a car.

 

[Oro?!]

I wasn't talking about the money match, I meant tournament sets since Metroid said "oh I'm not good, I got 7th place ^_^"

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oi oi, gotcha. Still act doesn't fool me I'm fully prepared to go 0-3 in Zard dittos.

 

[metroid1117]

Both players made some silly mistakes and choices (Sonic taking Zard to GHZ, neither player meteor canceling very proficiently, unless Sonic's fair spikes now and I somehow missed that).

Metroid your act doesn't fool me I'm coming to lose to you once I can figure out how to sail a car.

I think it's important to note that since Demo 2.5 hasn't been out for that long, players are still figuring out match-ups and picking stages out of personal preference. Also I'm legitimately bad at meteor canceling, I think I never canceled/survived any of Sethlon's FAirs in all of our friendlies -__-.

And yeah, I'm looking forward to playing you someday! It's always fun to meet people in the Smash community .

On-topic: Are people putting G&W as last playing with tap jump on or off? Although it makes it harder to up+B out of shield, G&W is considerably better with tap jump off; he can then jump after an aerial up+B much more easily, which gives him even more flexibility upon recovering, comboing, and combo breaking (since you can just mash up+B during combos, break them with a frame 1 hitbox, and save your double-jump). However, it doesn't seem like people mess around with customized controls that much, so I'm curious as to whether people have taken that into account.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well Game and Watch can already mash up B by just holding up and tapping B, and Up-B-> DJ is not terribly difficult to do with tap jump on. Most problems with GW seem to be about his lackluster stage control and mobility. Chef is a crapshoot and bair is only really useful to command space against just a handful of characters. His good grab followups shouldn't be ignored (I'd easily argue that he gets more consistent and useful followups from throws than Charizard as both characters stand at the moment), and he has the best dash dance and foxtrot in the game if only for how cool they are, but he's overall really slow to put out anything, and "anything" has almost no range to speak of as compensation for their slowness. He definitely is better at edgeguarding than a large number of characters and doesn't get held back like some characters who have no edgeguard options against say, Sonic.

Game and Watch suffers from being like a combination of Mario and Ike with only being okay at everything instead of good at everything like Mario, and being just as slow but weaker and less range than Ike.

But hey, he does have it going for him that no one knows the matchup against him I guess?

 

[Juushichi]

Not often that I agree with Kink completely in a post, but he pretty much nailed it.

Moves come out too slow (key ones, like Ftilt, fsmash, dsmash), he can't force people to respect how he controls space and his range is more limited than people probably realize. His mobility is very good, but that can only carry you so far, no pun intended.

 

[Oracle]

For all the complaining about game and watch, I've seen one person play him using all of his tools. You guys really just don't know what hes capable of

 

[Overswarm]

For all the complaining about game and watch, I've seen one person play him using all of his tools. You guys really just don't know what hes capable of

It is early, but every G&W I've seen has just been G&W reacting to the opponent and "playing smash" rather than using G&W's tools themselves.

 

[KayB]

For all the complaining about game and watch, I've seen one person play him using all of his tools. You guys really just don't know what hes capable of

Video or your argument means nothing.

 

[Oracle]

@kayb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs5-jDUKWuQ

@overswarm: what would you classify as 'using his tools'? IMO you would need to use tools to react to your opponent in different situations

 

[Overswarm]

@kayb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs5-jDUKWuQ

@overswarm: what would you classify as 'using his tools'? IMO you would need to use tools to react to your opponent in different situations

Like Falco uses his lasers to "create" an opening. Fox uses his speed and near unpunishable on-shield options to create openings. Bowser uses super armor. Jigglypuff uses her mobility. Sheik uses her low lag, fast moves, and excellent grabs. Marth uses his range. So on so forth.

G&W, in a "neutral position" doesn't have a correct answer to "wat do" until he knows what his opponent is doing, which is a natural weakness inherent within the character.


Also, total random thought:

Ways G&W's over-b hammer could potentially be changed in other ways...

Instead of over-b being totally random, make it to where once you do a hammer, that particular hammer won't happen again. Recharge it with taunt to reinitiate all hammers. Probably not a good idea though, but neat to think about

 

[Oracle]

game and watch has safe shield pressure, as well as a zero lag projectile that he can fire off twice in a short hop, each one having a full second of active frames controlling the air space, as well as a powerful grab game. So, out of your examples, game and watch fits the category of marth, shiek, and falco.

 

[metroid1117]

Well Game and Watch can already mash up B by just holding up and tapping B, and Up-B-> DJ is not terribly difficult to do with tap jump off. Most problems with GW seem to be about his lackluster stage control and mobility. Chef is a crapshoot and bair is only really useful to command space against just a handful of characters. His good grab followups shouldn't be ignored (I'd easily argue that he gets more consistent and useful followups from throws than Charizard as both characters stand at the moment), and he has the best dash dance and foxtrot in the game if only for how cool they are, but he's overall really slow to put out anything, and "anything" has almost no range to speak of as compensation for their slowness. He definitely is better at edgeguarding than a large number of characters and doesn't get held back like some characters who have no edgeguard options against say, Sonic.

Game and Watch suffers from being like a combination of Mario and Ike with only being okay at everything instead of good at everything like Mario, and being just as slow but weaker and less range than Ike.

But hey, he does have it going for him that no one knows the matchup against him I guess?

I'm not too sure how I feel about G&W's stage control, but I think his grab game has a LOT of potential. Since his throws all have the same, if not extremely similar, animations, you can get a lot of DI and tech mix-ups. The optimal way to escape UThrow, for example, is to DI to the side, but if G&W does a throw opposite to the opponent's DI (say they DI'd away from G&W and then G&W does a BThrow instead), they get set up for an up+B combo or FAir. On the other hand, his tech traps with DThrow seem to be more interesting; against fastfallers at low %s, G&W can force techs by either UThrowing or DThrowing. However, there is a tech locking mechanic that prevents you from teching for a certain period of time after inputting a tech but failing to tech. Because of this, G&W can trap fastfallers by mixing up what throw he does - if the opponent techs for DThrow, they'll miss the tech for UThrow and vice-versa. Missing a tech can lead to a jab reset -> DTilt or, if they missed a tech for UThrow, worse. This same tech trap works on floaties and platforms at certain %s too, so if floaties tech for DThrow but UThrown, they'll miss the tech for the platform and give G&W the opportunity to up+B combo or Parachute.

But yeah, I hope Nap can go to an IL tournament some time and give G&W more representation.

game and watch has safe shield pressure, as well as a zero lag projectile that he can fire off twice in a short hop, each one having a full second of active frames controlling the air space, as well as a powerful grab game. So, out of your examples, game and watch fits the category of marth, shiek, and falco.

Just to clarify this, "zero lag" literally means "zero lag" - G&W has 0 frames of lag after landing from Bacon, meaning it's technically faster than just landing without doing an attack (which typically has 4 frames of lag).

 

[Magus420]

I play him with tap jump on. I've found I rarely use the DJ in combos when I don't want to anymore by tap jumping into FJ up-bs (like after u-throw), switching to up earlier during u-airs, and switching to using the c-stick to angle up-b (up-b straight up on the stick and flick the c-stick to the angle you want during startup. I use the bottom of my thumb). C-stick aiming lets you get a full angle reliably without needing to go from neutral to full left/right in 1 frame on the control stick (the amount it can be angled is the same in melee! I had no idea he could until I tried in frame advance because it's so demanding with the control stick), so there isn't as much of a need to get full air mobility and switch quickly into the up-b to reach them with it.

I don't use up-b nearly as much as I could defensively, but I can see up-bing out of low damage stuff without DJing being tricky since there's less time to see where you'd have a chance to escape with it and switch from combo DI to up-b compared to later juggles. Keeping the jump during recovery I find hard mainly because of a habit of trying to squeeze every bit of air mobility in before inputting up-bs so it's weird to switch so slowly, especially into straight up rather than diagonal for other up-bs to do the c-stick angle on his. For recovering the c-stick angling really helps though, along with buckets which change recovery timing without losing distance.