Tier List Speculation

[Empyrean]

So from what I understand, Lucas is the PMBR's way of telling everyone to git gud at SDI. Ingenious.

 

[Bryonato]

So from what I understand, Lucas is the PMBR's way of telling everyone to git gud at SDI. Ingenious.

i thought it was pkfire, personally

 

[DahremRuhar]

Ha, am I the only one who thinks that Ganondorf is pretty alright in this game? Seriously, if you listened to this thread, or a lot of the Ganon forums for that matter, you'd think that we're playing Pichu in a game whose roster consists only of buffed Melee Foxes.

Good neutral games are for nerds anyway.

Eh, I enjoy playing as him. He wouldn't be the same character I've mained for five years if he had a legitimate neutral game, but I hate Falco's laser sooooo.....

EDIT: I stole a thing for my sig

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Hmm... not a very specific answer. You going to sktar?

hohohohohoho dk grudge match and snake grudge match at sktar get hype

 

[Ogopogo]

People say that one of Lucas's weaknesses is good SDI, but is that really something even the best players don't consistently do? Hbox can SDI uairs from Fox well but it's not like they're anything unexpected. Besides, every character is "weak" against SDI. Ones with multiple-hit moves I'd say more so, but still

 

[Ace55]

The one thing I think is silly about Lucas is that he retains Offense Up charge on successful hit. That just seems a bit ridiculous, no one else gets to keep charge if they hit you. Can you imagine DK if he retained Giant Punch charge on hit?

Yes I can, he would be a marginally better character and it would matter very little for his viability. Same idea with Lucas.

 

[Ogopogo]

Yes I can, he would be a marginally better character and it would matter very little for his viability. Same idea with Lucas.

I can remember seeing charged usmash combo into charged usmash on a low% Sheik. Maybe he could've jumped, but I doubt it. I'll try and find the video.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Hi

Lucas is not OP

He has like 1 or 2 things that he maybe doesn't need but seriously for the last time his offense is fine and can be dealt with fine and everyone is seriously overstating how good Lucas is based on Pink Fresh's recent completely deserved and hard-won performance.

Also IIRC people didn't say MD/VA was free, just that Seagull was.

Namesearched. ***.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Namesearched. ***.

luv u bb

Edit: I stopped taking this thread seriously a while ago, it seems ...

 

[jtm94]

Lucas' Upthrow doesn't have any business being stronger than Mewtwo's though. Don't even get me started on hit confirms from PK Freeze.... The point isn't that he shouldn't have KO moves, but he has so many options to get them that you literally cannot avoid them all. You can get grabbed into upthrow and die, downthrow to bair and die, PK Freeze to upsmash and die, downthrow to upsmash and die, dair to upsmash and die, fair and die. He is a monster..

 

[NickRiddle]

Combos into kill moves like a majority of the cast has?
Broken only on Lucas.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I've been saying warranted a ban since 2008. He over-centralizes the metagame and no character or stage can be used as a counterpick on him. His moves are beatable, but require perfect play to do so. His recovery is not punishable and too risky to combat.

 

[Thor]

lucas is broken

What Lucas isn't broken, he plays just fine! How could I beat someone of vastly superior skill with Lucas if he didn't work right!?

note sarcasm. I don't think Lucas is exactly broken either.

I've been saying warranted a ban since 2008. He over-centralizes the metagame and no character or stage can be used as a counterpick on him. His moves are beatable, but require perfect play to do so. His recovery is not punishable and too risky to combat.

Where have I seen this before... Oh yeah, with Brawl Snake! Was his own tier for a while back then, right?

 

[jtm94]

I never said combos into KO moves don't exist on other characters, but I DID say that he can do it more than the rest of the cast.

 

[Ripple]

Lucas is bad on FD against Yoshi.

PF was having difficulty with mine at UFGT

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Lucas' Upthrow doesn't have any business being stronger than Mewtwo's though.

Lucas has way higher SpA than Mewtwo, once they add his Mega Evolution his UThrow will kill faster

 

[MonkUnit]

[Offense Up] the hitboxes of the charged smashes are the same in case anyone doesn't know that

Actually, OU does alter the size of his U-Smash hitboxes. F-Smash and D-Smash don't change size though.

Spoiler: Regular U-Smash vs Offense Up U-Smash

Regular U-Smash Sweetspot Hit

Regular U-Smash Late Hit

Offense Up U-Smash Sweetspot Hit

Offense Up U-Smash Late Hit

 

[NWRL]

The shield pushback on Usmash is the only thing I really have to complain about with Lucas, if you shield anyone else's upsmash, you get a grab and free punish. But Lucas gets to reset/knock you to the ledge

 

[AstraEDM]

As long as we're discussing lucas, popping in to say that I agree 100% that his upthrow should be weaker, or at the very least the same strength as mewtwo's. M2 is a grab-focused character and uthrow is one of his main onstage kill moves, and Lucas, having incredible shield pressure and kill options AND the option to upthrow for a kill seems a bit silly to me. The rest of lucas is fine, IMO.

 

[NeonApophis]

Actually, OU does alter the size of his U-Smash hitboxes. F-Smash and D-Smash don't change size though.

Spoiler: Regular U-Smash vs Offense Up U-Smash

Regular U-Smash Sweetspot Hit

Regular U-Smash Late Hit

Offense Up U-Smash Sweetspot Hit

Offense Up U-Smash Late Hit

Oh, that's good to know. There's only one image in the Lucas frame data thread, so I assumed the hitboxes were the same.

 

[jtm94]

Tested and Lucas' up throw KOs only 10% sooner than Mewtwo's and like 50% earlier than Diddy's.

 

[TreK]

Ruleset question thingy.

Most suicide KOs are special grabs.

DK's cargo throw is a special grab.

We usually say, if the match is ended by a suicide KO, the one who did it wins no matter what the result screen says.

Does that mean DK's cargocide wins him the match if both players were at 1 stock ? I'm asking because DK always dies first during a cargocide, so it's a bit of a questionable loophole.

 

[Player -0]

If a suicide move is used then the one who initiated it is usually the winner. Pretty sure DK's cargo throw can be considered a suicide move.

 

[Ornj]

Only time will tell, what is at the bottom of the tier list well.

 

[Badge]

Oh, that's good to know. There's only one image in the Lucas frame data thread, so I assumed the hitboxes were the same.

Burnsy didn't come around to updating the OP yet, but I posted a non-OU UpSmash pic among other stuff a little down the thread. The body hitbox on OU FSmash is also very slightly larger than non-OU FSmash (an oversight I believe).

Tested and Lucas' up throw KOs only 10% sooner than Mewtwo's and like 50% earlier than Diddy's.

Lucas vs M2 UpThrow:
Lucas: (4+)8 damage, 90 degree angle, 75 base knockback, 120 knockback growth, i.e. kb = 0.84*X + 96.6
M2: 12 damage, 90 degree angle, 100 base knockback, 70 knockback growth, i.e. kb = 0.686*X + 112.6
With X being the percentage the thrown character ends up on. This means that if Lucas kills a character at X, Mewtwo kills at (0.84*X - 16)/0.686. This is without taking release points into consideration, but they shouldn't change much.

So, until a kill percentage of 103 on Lucas, M2 kills the character sooner. Starting at 104, Lucas kills sooner. Take a pretty average kill percentage of 135 for Lucas on BF (after the throw, this is 123 before). Mewtwo would kill at 142, i.e. 7 later. In the worst case for M2 (Wolf on DL) he kills at 227 against Lucas' 203 (real numbers, perfect DI) - a difference of 24 points.

 

[NickLeo]

The PMBR needs to fix lucas' grab hitbox too. His grab consistently connects from behind or even in the air around his head

Also, does anyone else agree the PK fire should have slightly less endlag, but NOT activate on shield

 

[Terotrous]

Also IIRC people didn't say MD/VA was free, just that Seagull was.

Here's one of the posts I was thinking of:

ESAM had a pretty good showing at Xanadu.

Still lost to Mew2King, but good Samus. Beat Squeak, Pink, and Boss.

No offense to those players but there are several players who can do that and I'm not at all surprised that ESAM beat them.

Hilariously, SB went on to get 3-stocked by Pink Fresh at UFGTX. It was still a solid DK showing but you should be wary of who you call out.


Anyway, I don't think Lucas is particularly OP. He's really strong, likely top 5, definitely top 10, but a lot of it is just Pink Fresh being really good with him and some people not really knowing the matchup (in particular, virtually no one seems to know how to edgeguard him).

Upthrow strength is maybe a bit silly, but I'm not convinced it would really change a lot since if Upthrow isn't going to kill, UpSmash certainly will.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Oh ****, you guys summoned 8adge, time to get schooled

 

[Ace55]

I can remember seeing charged usmash combo into charged usmash on a low% Sheik. Maybe he could've jumped, but I doubt it. I'll try and find the video.

Yeah that's pretty much the only scenario where it would be relevant, damage racking with smashes. Like I said, marginal difference. I doubt it would really impact any matchups.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I've been saying warranted a ban since 2008. He over-centralizes the metagame and no character or stage can be used as a counterpick on him. His moves are beatable, but require perfect play to do so. His recovery is not punishable and too risky to combat.

I'll take a minimum one week break from this thread. At some point you have to set a sign... See you guys

 

[Deleted member]

Also IIRC people didn't say MD/VA was free, just that Seagull was.

- player has been playing PM for literally 2 months
- is already a named player
- what

 

[Strong Badam]

Burnsy didn't come around to updating the OP yet, but I posted a non-OU UpSmash pic among other stuff a little down the thread. The body hitbox on OU FSmash is also very slightly larger than non-OU FSmash (an oversight I believe).


Lucas vs M2 UpThrow:
Lucas: (4+)8 damage, 90 degree angle, 75 base knockback, 120 knockback growth, i.e. kb = 0.84*X + 96.6
M2: 12 damage, 90 degree angle, 100 base knockback, 70 knockback growth, i.e. kb = 0.686*X + 112.6
With X being the percentage the thrown character ends up on. This means that if Lucas kills a character at X, Mewtwo kills at (0.84*X - 16)/0.686. This is without taking release points into consideration, but they shouldn't change much.

So, until a kill percentage of 103 on Lucas, M2 kills the character sooner. Starting at 104, Lucas kills sooner. Take a pretty average kill percentage of 135 for Lucas on BF (after the throw, this is 123 before). Mewtwo would kill at 142, i.e. 7 later. In the worst case for M2 (Wolf on DL) he kills at 227 against Lucas' 203 (real numbers, perfect DI) - a difference of 24 points.

This should be right:

Don't think it accounts for the non-KB altering +4 damage hitbox on Lucas' Dthrow though.

 

[kaizo13]

Lucas could honestly still do very well without a kill throw.

it should have enough knockback to grant him an OU charge, but not enough to KO

 

[Ali Baba 177]

How does Ivysaurs upsmash compare to Lucass uncharged and charged? I imagine its inbetween leaning more towards his uncharged but im not sure.

 

[Vashimus]

It's like tradition in Smash games where characters with psychic or magical abilities get kill throws and more human characters get less remarkable ones. Up throw just fits Lucas.

I don't know whose idea it was to make him spacie-like though. During that time the PMBR was a little too generous in terms of giving characters jump-cancelable moves.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I think omelets are great.

Blanket statements contribute nothing please elaborate.

Haha, true. It's just that I think that every character, especially newcomers/Brawl ones, can be pushed a lot harder, so making up a tier list is extremely hard right now. We need more tourney results or another Apex. I have some ideas in my head, but nothing completely final. My opinion on Project M changes consistently, the game is always evolving and growing. And that's exactly my point, speculations might make sense one day, then simply stop making sense a week or two after. Match ups can be learned, and strategies can be found or optimized. I literally find out awesome things each time I play. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'll take a minimum one week break from this thread. At some point you have to set a sign... See you guys

You're an idiot if you took my post seriously. I was merely mocking the fact that was not banned and listed issues prevalent since 2008 for brawl.

- player has been playing PM for literally 2 months
- is already a named player
- what

LMFAO. I know. I've literally profited for singles/doubles every tourney I've went to except for Bar Wars (Where I still profited in money matches).

 

[Saproling]

So Ivies will have to aim it in a way that people will only get hit by the second hit in the future. On the floor, you can crouch cancel the first hit and shieldgrab the second hit.

The angle doesn't allow Ivy to combo off of it, either, and you can't land between the two hits and combo, it has too little hitstun.

I already try to only hit with the second hit.
Ivy has low hitstun in general but it seems appropriate.

How does Ivysaurs upsmash compare to Lucass uncharged and charged? I imagine its inbetween leaning more towards his uncharged but im not sure.

Closer to uncharged but its wider most of that is just powder which doesn't do much though.

I've been trying to figure this out. How do you do it with a character that doesn't have a projectile and multiple jumps?

Tethers are very good and to edge guard them there is danger but I feel it balances out since tether characters generally have a hard time getting up off the edge.
I have seen Marth just drop off and side B and Ike with his fair pretty consistently so it might just be people with swords or disjointed hitboxes but I feel people will get the hang of it.

 

[Juushichi]

tbf, md/va and the mw have beaten each other relatively recently

boss has lost to carls/hanky in the last month
pink fresh has lost to carls but beat a lot of other people at UFGT.
hell, sethlon just got 4th at a xanadu or something crazy.
this weekend, like CEO next month will show a lot more about the state of the game currently, now that people are playing other regions.

k9 did have a godlike comeback vs kels, which was equally a choke and k9 being godlike

idk man, a lot of people can beat a lot of people in this game i think.

also, **** lucas.

 

[Empyrean]

also, **** lucas.

This guy gets it.

But seriously, a lot of the top players are at a level now at which we can't say who's better. There's at most a handful of people who stand out above the rest.