Tier List Speculation

[FlamingForce]

On the topic of characters being (supposedly) broken, what about a slightly different angle?

What do people think is a good example of a well balanced character in PM? One with appropriate strengths and weaknesses and all that.

 

[Empyrean]

Wolf.

..​

 

[Phan7om]

Kirby, Snake, MK, Yoshi and more (cant think of them) are all pretty balanced imo.

 

[ThreeSided]

Any opinion on ice climbers? They've got to be one of the characters with the least developed metagame. How do you think they rank?

 

[Terotrous]

Any opinion on ice climbers? They've got to be one of the characters with the least developed metagame. How do you think they rank?

I have ICs at second worst after Jiggs, IMO they're both unusably bad in the current version of PM. The main issue is that ICs have always been a very lopsided character, their tools aren't generally great but they had ridiculous offense through their infinites, if they ever got a grab on you you were basically done. They've been hugely nerfed in that department without getting any significant buffs to compensate, so they're really just pretty bad overall now.

 

[Juushichi]

I think IC are pretty ok, but fundamentally broken. Puff is a lot better than people think that she is.

As for best balanced characters:
Roy (actual game balance/how he interacts with characters)
Snake (attribute balance)

Good Balance imo:
Wolf (probably could see a few tweaks tbh).
Pikachu (in regards to archetype)
Luigi (reward in punish game vs difficulty of getting in)
Zero Suit Samus

 

[Giygacoal]

What exactly are Wolf's weaknesses? All I could think of is the relatively weak Smashes.

 

[Spralwers]

What do people think is a good example of a well balanced character in PM? One with appropriate strengths and weaknesses and all that.

Ganondorf

 

[Terotrous]

I'm not convinced that "possessing very significant strengths and weaknesses" is actually good game balance in a fighting game. When most characters have significant limitations, you tend to get a game that is very matchup-driven where most battles are won or lost on the character select screen, which isn't very fun. It generally seems to be best if each character has the tools to deal with most situations while still retaining some mechanic or aspect of their playstyle that's unique to them. In this game, I would say someone like Charizard is an example of good balance. He's big and bulky, but he's pretty versatile overall with decent power spread all throughout his moveset. I can't really think of anyone who just totally shuts him down or whom he completely dominates, he just feels decently viable in every match, which to me is what you want in a character.

 

[jtm94]

Roy is like the ideal character with easy to see strengths and weaknesses, but he can cover his weaknesses by just being a powerhouse.
Yoshi is also pretty good, especially once parrying is in, but it can already block grabs which is SUPER annoying.
I think Kirby's dash attack should require more investment because it is super free and near nonpunishable unless you know they are going to do it.
Snake is pretty balanced. He has strengths and weaknesses along with cool stuff.
Pikachu is lame so I guess balanced.
Ike seems pretty solid now, along with Zard, and ROB.
Falcon is fine from Melee, and Luigi isn't bad either.
I want to say Wolf is though he can do crazy stuff.
Oh, and Ness is pretty cool too.

Diddy shouldn't have 2 bananas, his recovery goes way too far.
Mewtwo's teleport is still too fast.
Metaknight is Metaknight....
Lucas has a plethora of KO options.
Mario's fireballs still too exploitable.
Spacies are hard to punish and have metric tons of pressure they can drop on you.

 

[kaizo13]

What do people think is a good example of a well balanced character in PM? One with appropriate strengths and weaknesses and all that.

wolf, charizard, lucario, roy/marth, falcon, peach, Metaknight, Snake (once upthrow+C4 is a little less effective)

 

[Phan7om]

Every character needs some tweaks, some more than others, but id say this game has okay balance. Matchups have a greater effect imo.

 

[Soft Serve]

Fox and Diddy are totally balanced, everyone else is just bad

 

[FlamingForce]

I swear to god if I hear one more person saying Diddy should not have 2 nanners lmfao

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy should not have 2 nanners lmfao

 

[Phan7om]

How i see naners is that 1 is for you and 1 is for the opponent, you should not let diddy have control of both or your doing the matchup wrong, at least get 1. If Diddy only had 1, he would have 0 and his opponent would have 1... hope that makes sense.

In other words, Diddy should have 2. Having 1 would either make Diddy super campy in order to use that banana, or the banana would become more so the opponents and not Diddys.

 

[Juushichi]

Do you have your computer voice forum messages for you???

 

[kaizo13]

What exactly are Wolf's weaknesses? All I could think of is the relatively weak Smashes.

weak smashes? f-smash and d-smash are pretty strong

weaknesses i would say are mostly him having the fastest falling speed in the game. makes him combo food and off-stage play is pretty risky. Also not having a secks kick and his shine being CCable puts him just below fox/falco...which is completely fine because Wolf is still a very viable character

 

[B.W.]

Diddy having 2 bananas is fine. Diddy's bananas tripping on contact with grounded opponent is not fine.

 

[Deleted member]

i know when i throw fruit @ people IRL it knocks them over

but i throw watermelons

at the elderly

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

The only character that really needs to be nerfed at this point is Ganondorf.

...I love a challenge.

 

[Scuba Steve]

The only character that really needs to be nerfed at this point is Ganondorf.

...I love a challenge.

3.03 Change List:
-Ganon no longer has a grab
-Ganon no longer regains jump from aerial down-b
-Active frames on Ganon's jab now start on frame 60
-Every special replaced with warlock punch
-Ganon's spotdodge no longer has intangibility

 

[Bryonato]

-Ganon can't move

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

3.03 Change List:
-Ganon no longer has a grab
-Ganon no longer regains jump from aerial down-b
-Active frames on Ganon's jab now start on frame 60
-Every special replaced with warlock punch
-Ganon's spotdodge no longer has intangibility

Jokes on you. Ganon is still half a character so long as he has his aerials and can SHFFL.

 

[Plum]

3.03 Change List:
-Ganon no longer has a grab
-Ganon no longer regains jump from aerial down-b
-Active frames on Ganon's jab now start on frame 60
-Every special replaced with warlock punch
-Ganon's spotdodge no longer has intangibility

-Characters with swords can reflect Ganon's attacks back at him

 

[Terotrous]

3.03 Change List:
-Ganon no longer has a grab
-Ganon no longer regains jump from aerial down-b
-Active frames on Ganon's jab now start on frame 60
-Every special replaced with warlock punch
-Ganon's spotdodge no longer has intangibility

+Flight of Ganon reinstated, but must be done with Warlock Punch.

HUUUUUUUUAAAAAH! *flies into outer space*

 

[SixSaw]

Changes I would make to Lucas:
1. Make the first hit of dair CCable
2. Nerf/rework Uthrow
3. Make it so he can't cancel his tether hang (edited to avoid confusion), or perhaps make it so tethering eats his jump. Some sort of limit on his options so that the risk/reward of trying to edgeguard him isn't so heavily stacked against you.
4. Make the outer grabbox of his grab ground-only

Also outside of nerfs, maybe some sort of situational incentive to dispel the OU charge. Like whiffing the discharge could give him his jump back as a last ditch recovery. Idk as a Wario main I just think mechanics like that are interesting.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Tether isn't cancelled by Magnet, all characters with tether can press down to drop off the ledge and tether and act immediately. Link and Tink can do it and make use of it with an AGT or an UpB

 

[Player -0]

3.03 Change List:
-Ganon no longer has a grab
-Ganon no longer regains jump from aerial down-b
-Active frames on Ganon's jab now start on frame 60
-Every special replaced with warlock punch
-Ganon's spotdodge no longer has intangibility

Wait, Ganon had a grab? Kappa

If Ganon's jab had same start/endlag but active frames different then it would be like Din's..... Jab into Warlock Punch!

 

[Giygacoal]

weak smashes? f-smash and d-smash are pretty strong

weaknesses i would say are mostly him having the fastest falling speed in the game. makes him combo food and off-stage play is pretty risky. Also not having a secks kick and his shine being CCable puts him just below fox/falco...which is completely fine because Wolf is still a very viable character

I suppose, but certainly not Fox upSmash strong as far as I can tell.

 

[AstraEDM]

-Ganon can't move

i thought we were suggesting changes

 

[woundedust]

On the topic of characters being (supposedly) broken, what about a slightly different angle?

What do people think is a good example of a well balanced character in PM? One with appropriate strengths and weaknesses and all that.

Lucario has a chesse offense, with the auto cancels, but is slower in air and floaty so he cant get guaranteed follow ups off of everything.

Wolf has good combo game, but has a flat out ****ty neutral

 

[Plum]

Wolf's neutral game: flat out ****ty
errrrr
okay guy

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

He must be talking about wolf's Neatral game in starfox 64

 

[Narpas_sword]

Changes I would make to Lucas:

2. Nerf/rework Uthrow

Imo, if youre getting killed by upthrow, you should consider yourself lucky youre not playing a lucas that kills you before you get to that %

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm going to try really hard to put my input in this thread, but not now lol, I'm way too drunk. Btw, to help this theory crafting, I suggest dolphin if your computer can handle it. I think its the future for learning matchups . Anyway, I'll try to give my thoughts on the subject tomorrow morning, cause I think that's when reason will come back to me ha ha.

 

[HyperrCrow]

but has a flat out ****ty neutral

There's no way you're being serious

 

[Hashtag]

Diddy having 2 bananas is fine. Diddy's bananas tripping on contact with grounded opponent is not fine.

What should his bananas do then?

What about pit's arrows, falco /wolf's lasers, Mario ' s/luigi ' s fire balls, links booomerang, zelda's dins fires etc.

At least with diddy's bananas you can power shield it, clank with it, catch it, tech it AND use it against diddy. If they took away tripping on naners then they should compensate in another way some how. Diddy's projectiles can be used against him rather easily in comparison to other characters.

We could effectively argue why most of the projectiles in the game act the way the do on hit.

 

[NickLeo]

Kirby, Snake, MK, Yoshi and more (cant think of them) are all pretty balanced imo.

I agree on yoshi and snake, but MKs tech chase options are simply too good vs most of the cast. Also, Seibrik taught me that kirby has a 0 to death chaingrab on floaties such as samus and ivy and that dash attack easily sets up the grabs.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Pits arrow got no DMG doe ;c