Tier List Speculation

[TSM ZeRo]

I greatly disagree with a lot of tier lists/positions being thrown out. Especially because most characters can be pushed a lot harder, and the game is very new still.

 

[Turazrok]

I greatly disagree with a lot of tier lists/positions being thrown out. Especially because most characters can be pushed a lot harder, and the game is very new still.

I think omelets are great.

Blanket statements contribute nothing please elaborate.

@Praxis
Diddy recovery strong tho, for example barrel up-b beats out wario dair (unless I'm super terrible).
on the subject of tether grabs, out of curiosity, what do you do if the z-dropped naner hits?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Lucas salt...
Don't want to be that guy, but learn SDI Come on, its not that hard

@ Turazrok

Concerning @ TSM ZeRo 's post, I partly agree but there are also ways to evaluate tier placement at least rudimentarily already.
Mainly comparison and transfer of knowledge from Melee characters that have very similar things come to mind. A decent part of the metagame can be developed much much faster because of knowledge transfer from similar situations. I am convinced tier lists can be still inaccurate because of:

- underutilization of known tools which are still regarded as hard but people will get used to it more and more
Example: Toon Link's bomb recovery. Once every TL player masters it with consistency he will move up some places.

- technology not found yet
Those are mostly many little things, also there could be bigger ones but with time proceeding it becomes more unrealistic that it still isn't found. I don't think those affect tier lists too much because in average new details will help every character about as much. It might cause inaccuracies, but not great disagreement imho.

- false evaluation of known and used tools
This one is the most common in inaccurate tier lists. There are many factors summing up the tier placement and some are evaluated wrongly, mostly because their importance is dependent on level of play and that can cause differences. For example neutral game is often underrated in some lists because it plays out pretty randomly/mindgame-based in mid-level play and then punishes dominate those levels while you need a really good player to play out an advantegous neutral game, avoiding situations where he can get hit by a read and always capitalizing on little concessions.

I completely agree though that blanket statements alone don't prove anything. I'd like to see "smash autorities" (also people like Mew2King) list why Link should be OP, Melee characters bad and whatever they think

Btw. I'd like to hear the community's opinion on which character is the best on a certain stage and in which case it is worth practicing a certain character for that stage. My first impression was that it doesn't really make sense on neutrals but ideas like the infamous Ike on GHZ have potential...

 

[Badge]

The down-air change is really unnecessary. Both @Oro?! and AZPM|K9 demonstrated over at UFGTX that it loses a lot of its potency since it can be SDI'd up, letting the last hit meteor to the ground rather than pop-up. USmash is a lot less guaranteed in that case and abruptly switches the scenario from KO set-up to tech chase.

SDI up works if you use it to avoid being carried to the ground by the weak hits, but if the third hit connects against a grounded character SDI up only makes that character end up higher. In that scenario you want to ASDI down (and DI to the side) to get the tech/avoid the bounce. (and SDI up against the weak hits also does nothing while grounded)

 

[DahremRuhar]

How rude. Also as I said design and balance changes arent the same.

In any case, you might not like what I say and attack me for it, but it's no secret that many low-mid level players like to complain about competitive games rather then get good at them, it's gonna upset people whether its meant to or not. I think any time someone complains about something being too good you can assume this is the case 99.999% of the time. Maybe its just all the complaints on the UFGT stream and then coming here and seeing more, but it seems to be getting worse. I worry what that does to the smash community.

I consider myself a low-mid level player, and I want to say that, from my observations, Cassio seems to have hit the nail on the head. The mentality of "This move is OP, Riot pls nerf" is obnoxious. It's borderline hilarious how many people don't understand how a competitive game works. If devs nerfed everything that seemed powerful, the metagame would never stabilize.

If you don't like being irrelevant, than get better, instead of complaining about how everything that is effective, is broken. It's not a difficult concept. Just because you can't handle something, does not mean it is is OP.

Not that any of this matters anyway, it's not like the P:M dev team actually cares whatsoever about what you people think needs to be nerfed or changed.

 

[GrosMinou]

Not that any of this matters anyway, it's not like the P:M dev team actually cares whatsoever about what you people think needs to be nerfed or changed.

P:M Devs are actually part of the community and a bunch of them play the game competitively. I'm pretty sure they care about community feedback/overall balance of the game.

 

[DahremRuhar]

P:M Devs are actually part of the community and a bunch of them play the game competitively. I'm pretty sure they care about community feedback/overall balance of the game.

You are correct, and I suppose I could have worded it better. I guess what I was trying to say is that many of the "problems" that people on this thread tend to point out are not actual problems. If I remember correctly, not too long ago a ton of users were complaining about the spacies needing to be nerfed. Before people start complaining about balance, the metagame needs to be relatively stable.

Basically, the "community feedback" that I tend to see on this thread, is irrelevant to the "overall balance" of the game.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I think if you ran though all 41 character you'd end up with like 4 who didn't have a godlike back-air.

Yes, but no-one's is as good as Ivy's. With the range, speed, two hits, and disjointed hitbox, he can knock practically any character out of his recovery. Even moves like DK's Spinning Kong!

 

[Player -0]

Yes, but no-one's is as good as Ivy's. With the range, speed, two hits, and disjointed hitbox, he can knock practically any character out of his recovery. Even moves like DK's Spinning Kong!

You could argue for the uses for them. Ivy's great at knocking people off and camping similar to Jiggz but there are better in the combo department. Ivy's Bair can be CC'ed as far as I remember (doesn't help in the air lol). It's pretty irritating but fine. Although invalidating Jiggz since 2.6+

 

[TreK]

Yes, but no-one's is as good as Ivy's. With the range, speed, two hits, and disjointed hitbox, he can knock practically any character out of his recovery. Even moves like DK's Spinning Kong!

The multihit aspect of it is more of a curse than a blessing, tbh. Depending on whether the opponent is a floatie or a fast faller, there are a number of jump trajectories that allow the victim to DI out of it so us Ivies can't just toss the move around, it takes a very specific positionning that I expect to become a bit predictable as the metagame grows. So Ivies will have to aim it in a way that people will only get hit by the second hit in the future. On the floor, you can crouch cancel the first hit and shieldgrab the second hit.

The angle doesn't allow Ivy to combo off of it, either, and you can't land between the two hits and combo, it has too little hitstun.

So yeah, it's definitely one of Ivysaur's two or three best moves, but it diesn't come without downsides, either.

 

[NickLeo]

For example, how are Marth, Ike, and Roy supposed to keep ZSS from tethering? It's extremely high risk, low reward

Ike shouldn't have any problems, he can just Fair off stage and sweetspot the ledge from there. He has a few ways to get back aside from that anyway
Marth and Roy are trickier but you can try timing a dancing blade or just simply grab ledge and punish the forced get-up

 

[Chesstiger2612]

For Marth: RAR or something similar to grab the ledge if she is tethering from under the stage, otherwise run off fair... Then maybe ledgedrop jump dair or WD onstage (as soon as they do the forced jump) and pivot f-smash.

 

[MagnesD3]

From watching all of the Lucas matches I feel the only nerf needed is a nerf to up throw as he has so many other ways to kill with ease I feel an up throw kill is a bit much, or if it's gonna kill make it kill on average at 180

 

[Empyrean]

Just remove Lucas from the game and buff spacies. That way, everybody wins. (sorry Lucas mains :/)

 

[steelguttey]

can we just remove lucas' neutral b completely because that move is the scariest ****ing thing ever and come on olimar has to wait until he gets a purple and it turns into a flower to get a good usmash but lucas has to press a button for one of the strongest ones in the game

dont even get me started on comparing lucas' and olimar's tether dear lord

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yes, but no-one's is as good as Ivy's. With the range, speed, two hits, and disjointed hitbox, he can knock practically any character out of his recovery. Even moves like DK's Spinning Kong!

Lol pretty much everything can knock DK out of his up-b. You can land dairs as Ganon on him from the side

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Just remove Lucas from the game and buff spacies. That way, everybody wins. (sorry Lucas mains :/)

but spacies are boring and dont have DACUS OR DJC

 

[Empyrean]

but spacies are boring and dont have DACUS OR DJC

I don't think people would be too happy with dacus on Fox or DJC on Falco dair.

Your pick.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Lucas neutral-b fully charged Fox DACUS. If you hit a platform with it it will die off the top.

 

[Terotrous]

The one thing I think is silly about Lucas is that he retains Offense Up charge on successful hit. That just seems a bit ridiculous, no one else gets to keep charge if they hit you. Can you imagine DK if he retained Giant Punch charge on hit?

Yes, it wouldn't actually change a ton if he didn't retain charge because he usually has enough time to get charge after hitting anyway, but at least he'd have to choose between edgeguarding and charging if you survived a charged forward smash or something.

I also think it's funny that over the last week or so we've moved from "SAX sucks, Pink Fresh and the others are so free" to "Lucas is super OP, nerf his ass".

 

[FlamingForce]

The one thing I think is silly about Lucas is that he retains Offense Up charge on successful hit. That just seems a bit ridiculous, no one else gets to keep charge if they hit you. Can you imagine DK if he retained Giant Punch charge on hit?

Yes, it wouldn't actually change a ton if he didn't retain charge because he usually has enough time to get charge after hitting anyway, but at least he'd have to choose between edgeguarding and charging if you survived a charged forward smash or something.

I also think it's funny that over the last week or so we've moved from "SAX sucks, Pink Fresh and the others are so free" to "Lucas is super OP, nerf his ***".

A hearty laugh at anyone stupid enough to think PF was free.

Srsly what the ****.

 

[Axxo]

Who's they?

Everyone that has seen your ****, from dallas, college station, houston, especially a lot of ppk from whobo... Thts who... Anyways... I'll post more matches when I can... I just play around with most ppl...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The one thing I think is silly about Lucas is that he retains Offense Up charge on successful hit. That just seems a bit ridiculous, no one else gets to keep charge if they hit you. Can you imagine DK if he retained Giant Punch charge on hit?

Yes, it wouldn't actually change a ton if he didn't retain charge because he usually has enough time to get charge after hitting anyway, but at least he'd have to choose between edgeguarding and charging if you survived a charged forward smash or something.

I also think it's funny that over the last week or so we've moved from "SAX sucks, Pink Fresh and the others are so free" to "Lucas is super OP, nerf his ***".

Hi

Lucas is not OP

He has like 1 or 2 things that he maybe doesn't need but seriously for the last time his offense is fine and can be dealt with fine and everyone is seriously overstating how good Lucas is based on Pink Fresh's recent completely deserved and hard-won performance.

Also IIRC people didn't say MD/VA was free, just that Seagull was.

 

[Cassio]

MD/VA is free though. This just means midwest is free also.

 

[Vashimus]

I consider myself a low-mid level player, and I want to say that, from my observations, Cassio seems to have hit the nail on the head. The mentality of "This move is OP, Riot pls nerf" is obnoxious. It's borderline hilarious how many people don't understand how a competitive game works. If devs nerfed everything that seemed powerful, the metagame would never stabilize.

If you don't like being irrelevant, than get better, instead of complaining about how everything that is effective, is broken. It's not a difficult concept. Just because you can't handle something, does not mean it is is OP.

Not that any of this matters anyway, it's not like the P:M dev team actually cares whatsoever about what you people think needs to be nerfed or changed.

It seems to me you've merely glanced over the thread and either missed or completely ignored when intelligent discussion does go on and people start to think rationally about their claims and provide logical arguments to back them up. Rarely do I ever find people in this thread blindly say a character should be nerfed and provide no argument for it, unless it's in jest. Those who do get quickly dismantled by the other posters. Lucas is fine in my eyes.

Get off your high horse.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

MD/VA is free

Pink Fresh 2-0'd Zero's Pit

Therefore Zero's Pit is free

Logic

 

[Empyrean]

But Zero completely annihilated PF with Fox.

Therefore, PM is free.

 

[1FD]

WTF OMFG is SDIing Dair the thing people are saying ruins Lucas?!?!?!
WTF?!?!
The best player I know doesn't even use down air when he plays Lucas and doesn't use up throw to kill BECAUSE LUCAS CAN KILL WAY EASIER WAY EARLIER IN LIKE A BILLION WAYS
Like really down air SDIing does NOTHING to Lucas punish game I REALLY HOPE THAT'S NOT WHY PEOPLE SAY SDI BEATS HIM
OMG if it is I will quit life here and now on the forums

If you were to change up smash then don't change it for stupid reasons like Lucas being broken but instead change it for **** like this
This is a quote from April IN THIS THREAD
Seen quotes like this since the beginning of my 2.1 lurking and generally I tend to agree with them


Quote starts here

They're designed well for what they are, but they're polarizing due to being possibly 'too' good at what their 'base' is. Example: Lucas would be fine without that U-Throw, he wouldn't be any worse. Without it, the public mainstream players would probably be a lot better with the character too. Stocks shouldn't ever be finished with U-Throw when he can combo into B-Airs and F-Smashes so easily and more efficiently anyway, but this has taken a back-seat to allow people room to have terrible punishment games and still be ok because his 'base' of being fast/etc allows people to screw up and shrug it off. Bringing it back later would be fine, or just avoiding it for a while, but little things like this are similar to what happened to the old Sonic/etc. Take away the stuff that's 'silly' and see what's underneath. Given U-Throw isn't super-broken, it's overlooked as a hindrance even when it's hindering the exploration of what's underneath for the general populace very observably. There's a reason the meta-game is like a slug in regards to 'discovering' what characters are capable of, and this is a very demonstrable example anyone can see, and is very prominent among characters with good 'bases' (see Fox and U-Smash talks for another example, but he's explored to a great extent so getting that U-Smash isn't going to hurt his growth, where even the best Lucas's are absolute trash with the character, so the U-Throw stunts the growth for obvious reasons). It's not a big deal, and will come with time, but I'm an advocate of improving player development more than anything, and if there was a way to accelerate it purely through temporary game design set-backs, I'm all for it. People will laser for the sake of lasering, WD for the sake of WDing, and whatever else though, so it's a small deal.​

You are a **** poster.

Not to turn the crank of jibberish some more but you're doing it too
Like saying to Zero that blanket statements don't help conversations or whatever like SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE?!?!!?
And no need to be rude like that ESPECIALLY when he's making points
Let people share their thoughts BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE LET YOU DO TOO
Otherwise we'd all be like Drinking Food in here given how your monthlyweekly tier lists are basically the epitome of trendfollowersyndrome
Like really we're in this discussion together and it's the internet
If you're calling someone out for making a useless blanket statement and then DOING JUST THAT to be rude and nothing else about terrible posting then WOW
Either you're the champ of paradoxes and purposely doing this to master hypocritiqueness or you're just missing it
Hope that makes sense and hope you can learn and grow and be peaceful on here and not add to the junk because trust drinking food lol you do have a lot of junk as much or more than most
THAT'S WHY WE'RE ALL HERE THOUGH DUH

Junkdumpz

 

[FlamingForce]

Yo 1FD nothing personal but ima put you on the ol' ignore list cos your posts are seriously hurting my eyesight.

 

[1FD]

I will learn to post.
MAYBAY BAYBAY
Post formatting gives cancer apparently...

 

[jtm94]

OHYES, Lucas' dair can be SDId to safety. Fox's uair is also bad now because you can SDI out of the second hit.... genius.

And people DO complain about Sonic. They complain because the PMBR did a REALLY BAD JOB of releasing a character before he was ready, now we are faced with this half-baked combo machine that doesn't remotely function like a smash character and has the fastest/most versatile movement options in the game bar Mewtwo's teleport.

DownB leads to fair, uair, dair, nair, and sometimes bair. His upthrow can be followed up with fair, nair, and uair with any DI. Uair is too disjointed when it beats out moves like Link dair and I'm also not sure why it hits to the side of him? And when facing a higher level Sonic it was absolutely beat that he could SHFFL uair, into short hop uair, into double jump uair, into UpB uair and I'm dead off the top... TONS of people complain about Sonic, there are very few players who enjoy facing him because he literately is a fighting character from a different game put into Smash Bros. and the transition didn't work well.

The biggest thing with Sonic that irks me is that I you can't even crouch cancel this spinning ball. Even at 0% his DownB point-blank just crushes you and very few characters can manage to get something out fast enough to disrupt it before you are carried off for some %.

This wasn't even a rant, recently I've become more prepared to face Sonic and now he is much less miserable to face, this was more like a lot of facts that I do not like about the character. Also his fair meteor is useless if you are lower than 110% and even then if you jump or UpB out of it you are probably still living.

Current TOP Characters:
1. Mewtwo
2. Fox
3. MK
4. Falco
5. Lucas
6. Diddy
7. Mario

 

[POOB]

Everyone that has seen your ****, from dallas, college station, houston, especially a lot of ppk from whobo... Thts who... Anyways... I'll post more matches when I can... I just play around with most ppl...

Hmm... not a very specific answer. You going to sktar?

 

[DahremRuhar]

It seems to me you've merely glanced over the thread and either missed or completely ignored when intelligent discussion does go on and people start to think rationally about their claims and provide logical arguments to back them up. Rarely do I ever find people in this thread blindly say a character should be nerfed and provide no argument for it, unless it's in jest. Those who do get quickly dismantled by the other posters. Lucas is fine in my eyes.

Get off your high horse.

No high horse here. Just pointing out what I've observed. I mean, what I saw on the previous page was pretty much exactly what you said doesn't happen here often.

And yeah, I tend to only glance over a thread dedicated to speculating about a potential tier list for an exceedingly well-balanced and incomplete mod. Don't feel like going over 376 pages of content that literally doesn't matter. Ooops. Won't ever happen again. Forgive me plz.

 

[Vashimus]

No hard feelings.

Personally I'm a bit curious myself as to what the decision process is when the PMBR actually does do their balancing. I like to think they go into a board room and say "**** Charizard" and everyone nods in agreement.

 

[DahremRuhar]

No hard feelings.

Personally I'm a bit curious myself as to what the decision process is when the PMBR actually does do their balancing. I like to think they go into a board room and say "**** Charizard" and everyone nods in agreement.

As much as I genuinely want to disagree with you because you were mean and said bad things about me on the internet, I am very disappointed with P:M 'zard. Loved playing him in Brawl. Personally I am more upset about the state of my beloved Ganondorf, but at least from what I hear, he'll be getting some sort of buff in the next version.

 

[NeonApophis]

Some balance notes on Lucas:

Offense up isn't really broken. It is useful, which is the point, but the power boost is pretty reasonable given the limitations (and the hitboxes of the charged smashes are the same in case anyone doesn't know that). The biggest limitation is that you can't partially charge it and then continue charging later, which makes it more difficult to get a charge. The only time you can charge it without giving up anything is after killing them off the top, since any other kill will let them get back soon enough that you have to charge it near the edge of the stage to stay safe, meaning that you accept bad stage positioning right when an invincible opponent respawns. If you went off stage for a gimp, you might not have time to charge it at all by the time you get back to the stage, so there are definite limits on charging after a kill. The other main time to charge it is when you respawn, and even though you can do that safely, you give up your invincibility to do it, and at high levels that's a pretty significant trade off.

Up throw is fine. The only real use of up throw is guaranteeing a kill, but at a higher percent than you could have killed with something else that would work as long as you don't mess up (like dair -> up smash or dthrow -> (dacus) up smash). It would probably be more broken for Lucas to have an up throw that didn't send them so far, allowing for better combo follow ups on more characters than just the fastest fallers. Right now up throw has a very specific use, which is guaranteeing a kill on floaties at high percents, even though other things can fill that role more efficiently.

Lucas's tether is really not as good as people think. Maybe the most overrated thing in the game. It is fairly easy to edgeguard since you know that he is going to the ledge, and he has no hitbox during the tether. Lucas can cancel it to attack out of it and/or air dodge again, but it's still quite hard to get back against a good opponent. Most people are just bad at edgeguarding and/or don't know how easy it is to intercept the tether recovery.

Dair is really good, but as others mentioned, you can SDI it, and a combination of good DI and not missing techs allows you to get out of most dair combos. Also, because it has a small hitbox right that doesn't extend very far in front of Lucas, it's pretty difficult to land a dair except in a situation where you could land pretty much whatever other move you wanted, and I think this need for a setup helps balance its obvious usefulness when you do manage to land a dair.

Some people probably complain about bair as well. Again, it's a pretty good move, but because the trajectory is variable and determined by the exact point at which the bair connects, it requires a lot of timing and spacing precision that isn't always available giving your positioning, which limits bair's applications. You also generally can't use it that quickly, since it comes out slowly and you often need to wait for a late part of the bair to get the angle that you want.

 

[MLGF]

Can we not complain about Back Airs?
Because good back airs and PM are repetitive statements.

 

[Oracle]

lucas is broken

 

[Cassio]

The only real use of up throw is guaranteeing a kill, but at a higher percent than you could have killed with something else that would work as long as you don't mess up (like dair -> up smash or dthrow -> (dacus) up smash). It would probably be more broken for Lucas to have an up throw that didn't send them so far, allowing for better combo follow ups on more characters than just the fastest fallers.

Im not on the Lucas nerf train but I completely disagree with this. For one having the opponent above you, while not as good as combo height, is still great. For two, killing throws are ridiculously good. It completely disrupts the RPS endgame of a stock. No one wants to get hit at high percents but theyre more willing to allow grabs (by shielding more) because it doesnt directly lead to death. Giving someone a kill grab disrupts that flow and gives them a sizable edge in killing. I'd gladly trade any guaranteed combo throw I have for a guaranteed kill throw (assuming I have other moves that combo). Luckily Lucas has a tether grab so its not as bad.

And yeah tether recoveries are overrated, but theyre still kind of dumb and unfun, probably the greatest contributor to offstage game being lamer than melee. The best similarity I can think of is Metaknights tornado from Brawl. It was beatable with knowledge and practice, but who wants to deal with something that annoying?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

As much as I genuinely want to disagree with you because you were mean and said bad things about me on the internet, I am very disappointed with P:M 'zard. Loved playing him in Brawl. Personally I am more upset about the state of my beloved Ganondorf, but at least from what I hear, he'll be getting some sort of buff in the next version.

Ha, am I the only one who thinks that Ganondorf is pretty alright in this game? Seriously, if you listened to this thread, or a lot of the Ganon forums for that matter, you'd think that we're playing Pichu in a game whose roster consists only of buffed Melee Foxes.

Good neutral games are for nerds anyway.