Tier List Speculation

[Empyrean]

Yeah, I guess it kinda makes sense for Lucas to have problems with pressure himself. But holy **** can he apply massive, relentless pressure on his own. Sometimes (well maybe all the time), I feel like Lucas has been given more than enough tools to work with. Wish other characters were given this sort of love. ;_;

 

[1FD]

Just grab the ledge and do an aerial or whatever from it.
Lucas is tough to edgeguard but this eliminates a lot of the safety stuff he could get away will and guessing games and stuff so keep it simple.
I imagine this would be the option everyone does when edgeguarding gets good from people.
I'm not meaning to be a douche again but think this has to be said.
Lucas can handle pressure perfectly fine.
For the most part Lucas players and anyone who likes to pressure orient styles with characters would can pull it off being 100% pressure and nothing else and still do well... will do just that
They play a high pressure offensive game that don't give much concern for everything from dropping combos to avoiding getting hit because they can make up for it by basically just flailing to get hits again.
As soon as that defensive game is developing you'll see how easy it is for Lucas to do anything like his crazy wavedashes out of shield into anything giving him tons or offensive turn around room to doing instant airdodges out of shield into Zairs covering a bunch room while invulnerable and moving and comboing into literally anything he ever wants to do.
Not to mention the obvious instant shines and fairs and stuff he can do
Like what he can't upsmash so he can't handle pressure? Maybe his roll isn't the best in the game? lol
Like there's just no way for me to hit bamseys shield without dying unless it's like Wolfs shinegrab even if I space things the best possible and I expect this to come from other good Lucas players I know or have seen soon enough too
Someone who is good at neutral and has some of the best punishes and pressure around and has options for anything ever in any situation...
Has weaknesses in regards to being punished if he gets hit
WELL THEN FOCUS ON NOT GETTING HIT AS PRIMARY DEAL IN METAVALUTION
When that's a thing the way it is for Falcon and Fox and stuff then I don't see Lucas having trouble with pressure according to people here anymore lol

Also if there was a project m thing to put under the avatars as the MAINS IN THE GAME or whatever Lucas would probably be the one I put there right now next to PIKA FOX MK because he's always one of the best around as far as most people I think know what's up are concerned so I will follow their mutual agreement on it.

RUINING EVERYTHING

 

[Oro?!]

That post formatting and logic gave me cancer.

 

[Axxo]

But is it as good as POOB?

No offense to poob but they say I'm better

 

[Ali Baba 177]

No offense to poob but they say I'm better

Are you going to any tournaments soon?

 

[JOE!]

No offense to poob but they say I'm better

Dems fighting words

@ POOB : teach this guy a lesson

 

[Saproling]

I look forward to people learning to edgeguard Lucas (Because it IS possible) as the game goes on because I like learning new ways to get back. Still expect him to get nerfed in some way even though I think he's perfectly reasonable.

People need to learn how to ledge guard tethers in general.

 

[9bit]

I think all Lucas needs to be a totally fine character is to remove his charge mechanic on neutral B. It would take away from the uniqueness of the character and I do think that's a bad thing, but it would be a simple way to balance him out.

What would Lucas mains think about this change?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think all Lucas needs to be a totally fine character is to remove his charge mechanic on neutral B. It would take away from the uniqueness of the character and I do think that's a bad thing, but it would be a simple way to balance him out.

What would Lucas mains think about this change?

Doesn't actually address his core functionality at all. Slightly less kill power still leaves him with all his pressure and combos.

i.m.o Lucas' regular (non fast-fall) speed could be increased and his tether shortened, as well as his Down-B made less effective at stalling so that he can't cover quite as much distance. Lucas' only issue is that he has spacy offense with Mario recovery. Tone the recovery down and he's fine*.

*I admit this may be a far too simplistic view of things.

 

[Player -0]

Doesn't actually address his core functionality at all. Slightly less kill power still leaves him with all his pressure and combos.

i.m.o Lucas' regular (non fast-fall) speed could be increased and his tether shortened, as well as his Down-B made less effective at stalling so that he can't cover quite as much distance. Lucas' only issue is that he has spacy offense with Mario recovery. Tone the recovery down and he's fine*.

*I admit this may be a far too simplistic view of things.

Lucas' tether is already really short.

Maybe if you made it so Lucas' shine lowers/stops his horizontal momentum similarly to how the spacie's shine does. It would remove magnet pulling completely (How do you even do it in P:M? I've seen it done) and make it so he can't jump magnet into people's shields but his recovery is in question with the spacie pressure and he has a pretty good WD to make up for the jump magneting thingy.

So:
- Make it so Lucas' shine lowers/stops horizontal momentum.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

People need to learn how to ledge guard tethers in general.

Yeah, it's not like every character doesn't have a godlike b-air. Oh, wait, that's just Ivy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, it's not like every character doesn't have a godlike b-air. Oh, wait, that's just Ivy.

I think if you ran though all 41 character you'd end up with like 4 who didn't have a godlike back-air.

 

[Radical Larry]

Oh that's interesting I didn't know he was a fastfaller.

I've seen K9 (as MK) do some good work recently edgeguarding against the tether, but it seems like a big guessing game most of the time. A Lucas he was fighting earlier tonight (or yesterday) was doing some amazing things releasing tether and using down-B, then re-tethering... type stuff.

Oh yeah, what about his main flaw: Recovery move. This coincides with the previous reply.

 

[jtm94]

Lucas could be toned down by making his upthrow weaker and make dair hit his opponent's higher faster so it doesn't guarantee upsmashes as easily.
His throw is far too strong, and he has too many easily landed KO moves for the pressure he can exert.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Lucas could be toned down by making his upthrow weaker and make dair hit his opponent's higher faster so it doesn't guarantee upsmashes as easily.
His throw is far too strong, and he has too many easily landed KO moves for the pressure he can exert.

The down-air change is really unnecessary. Both @ Oro?! and AZPM|K9 demonstrated over at UFGTX that it loses a lot of its potency since it can be SDI'd up, letting the last hit meteor to the ground rather than pop-up. USmash is a lot less guaranteed in that case and abruptly switches the scenario from KO set-up to tech chase.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

In the year 20XX everyone SDIs Dair up and tech the ground when they hit it to avoid "free" Up Smashes

 

[JOE!]

And instead get tech chased into a uthrow

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

And instead get tech chased into a uthrow

Yep, because all Lucas players are psychic and that grab isn't punishable.

 

[MLGF]

...So... anyone else find three tethers until one grabs the edge to be too much.
I mean, I understand the idea of a safe recovery, but it does make offstage combat less rewarding against tether characters like Link/Samus.

 

[Cassio]

"Character ______ is too good with trait ______ because after putting in the work with countless hours of practice and an understanding of top level game play I find this trait to be too unbalanced"

Said no one playing PM ever.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

"Character ______ is too good with trait ______ because after putting in the work with countless hours of practice and an understanding of top level game play I find this trait to be too unbalanced"

Said no one playing PM ever.

Yeah, no playtesters or people that play PM on a competitive level have ever posted in this thread.

False generalizations are fun!

 

[Axxo]

Are you going to any tournaments soon?

We have tourneys every friday here at gameguys in Pasadena, Tx

Also going to San Antonio for Rains of castamere 2

 

[Cassio]

Tweaking traits to ensure good mechanics, flow, and game play and determining whether something is "too unbalanced" are two different things. Come back after a stable release has been out for 2-3 years then maybe we can talk. The game was obviously made to avoid things that are clearly unbalanced. I also find it pretty rare that anyone involved with the game calls something "too good" and when they hint at it its usually with lots of caveats. PM community just likes to complain about things without putting the work in.

 

[MLGF]

I was merely using a character example.

Anyways, I'm not implying it's broken or anything. But it can be part of the reason that offstage is significantly more braindead when trying to recovery with a tether. Their safeness requires a lot less thought then other tactics. That isn't to say it's broken or anything, but it's not very entertaining to watch or fight against. It also seems to invalidate other recovery options at times. One time use would make it more situational and require more thought, as well as speeding up matches.

Just my thoughts.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Post

Yeah, I think there's someone that complains a BUNCH about Pikachu in PM, actually...

Forget THAT guy.

 

[Turazrok]

"Character ______ is too good with trait ______ because after putting in the work with countless hours of practice and an understanding of top level game play I find this trait to be too unbalanced"

Said no one playing PM ever.

Tweaking traits to ensure good mechanics, flow, and game play and determining whether something is "too unbalanced" are two different things. Come back after a stable release has been out for 2-3 years then maybe we can talk. The game was obviously made to avoid things that are clearly unbalanced. I also find it pretty rare that anyone involved with the game calls something "too good" and when they hint at it its usually with lots of caveats. PM community just likes to complain about things without putting the work in.

You are a **** poster.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i disagree with cassio about 100% of the time.

and lucas is fine.

 

[Empyrean]

I say remove the charging mechanic and leave the discharge(?) for neutral-B. All of his smashes already have no trouble killing, I don't see what's the point of making them even better.

Lucas' recovery is fine. His only problem is his massive, supra-godlike killing potential (legit all of his moves kill, and the ones that don't lead into finishers).

inb4 someone points Fox.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

All of Sonic's Aerials can kill or lead into finishers (Up-Air Chains though?) don't see people ******** about Sonic.

I await the day people DO start ******** about Sonic though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll maintain that Lucas is fine offensively, but if there is a balance of pros v. cons that needs to be maintained Lucas is somewhat lacking in the cons department. Down-B Stall is honestly my only complaint - it kind of invalidates Lucas being a fast-faller offstage.

 

[Player -0]

Gave my suggestion on changing that if it even needs to be changed.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I think uthrow might deserve a change simply because Lucas still has good, more creative setups into KOs without it and overall it tends to contribute to scoring KOs being the least exciting part of Lucas play.

Dash grab active frames/animation could be tweaked to make more sense visually, or possibly allow for a properly timed spotdodge to avoid it.

First two hits of dair could be nerfed to 3/4% each instead of 5% so pulling off (essentially) infinite dair strings for the purpose of racking up damage isn't really efficient (especially given staling) compared to just going for a normal followup, or at least not much incentive is given to extend the string beyond two or three reps given the risk of a drop.

Otherwise I think Lucas obviously has some strong tools, yet I can't make too much of a judgement on whether they'll become unfair to the rest of the cast or not (his grab game being the most likely offender) but for now I think he's fine.

 

[Zerthex]

Snake's platform-canceled cypher is pretty good. 'A' tier seems about right.

 

[POOB]

No offense to poob but they say I'm better

Who's they?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Grab game too good? Alright, let's give Lucas a normal grab then.

#BuffLucas

 

[Nannas]

Gotta say @ Axxo I've seen both you and @ POOB play, and you are improving thats for sure but your combo game and neutral aren't near Poob's yet. After watching your matches your opponents miss almost every shield grab opportunity because fair to jab with DK just plain isn't a good Idea.
#GotchabackPOOB

 

[Cassio]

Yeah, I think there's someone that complains a BUNCH about Pikachu in PM, actually...

Forget THAT guy.

You are a **** poster.

How rude. Also as I said design and balance changes arent the same.

In any case, you might not like what I say and attack me for it, but it's no secret that many low-mid level players like to complain about competitive games rather then get good at them, it's gonna upset people whether its meant to or not. I think any time someone complains about something being too good you can assume this is the case 99.999% of the time. Maybe its just all the complaints on the UFGT stream and then coming here and seeing more, but it seems to be getting worse. I worry what that does to the smash community.

 

[Turazrok]

How rude. Also as I said design and balance changes arent the same.

In any case, you might not like what I say and attack me for it, but it's no secret that many low-mid level players like to complain about competitive games rather then get good at them, it's gonna upset people whether its meant to or not. I think any time someone complains about something being too good you can assume this is the case 99.999% of the time. Maybe its just all the complaints on the UFGT stream and then coming here and seeing more, but it seems to be getting worse. I worry what that does to the smash community.

Then why say it 5 times.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Grab game too good? Alright, let's give Lucas a normal grab then.

#BuffLucas

To be fair, you'd lose a lot of the confirms into grab and/or regrab stuff by doing that, not to mention pretty easy coverage on tech chases or other panic-options you might bait out with a good pressure game.
But yes, grab is slow, so you can't use (also read: abuse) it in the same manner other grabs are. That doesn't mean minor adjustments to the arguably massive benefits Lucas gets to offset 5 frames of grab startup would drastically change his viability. His grab game is good. I didn't claim it was too good, only that I've kept my eye on it the most so far, because Lucas has an easy time confirming into it and it leads into so much.

 

[Praxis]

People need to learn how to ledge guard tethers in general.

I've been trying to figure this out. How do you do it with a character that doesn't have a projectile and multiple jumps?

For example, how are Marth, Ike, and Roy supposed to keep ZSS from tethering? It's extremely high risk, low reward.

I main Diddy and get some mileage out of z dropped naners, but when I play Marth I can't figure out how to stop the tether without putting myself in a bad position if they attack instead of tether.

I generally agree that people suck at ledge guarding in this game- I know, like, two people who edge guard my Diddy correctly (and man it hurts), and everyone else just moans and complains as they let me back onstage that my recovery is too good. But I'm struggling to figure out the tethers with the above characters.