Tier List Speculation

[Hashtag]

Pits arrow got no DMG doe ;c

Cause people aren't hitting their opponents with arrows to the knee.

 

[Turazrok]

I agree on yoshi and snake, but MKs tech chase options are simply too good vs most of the cast. Also, Seibrik taught me that kirby has a 0 to death chaingrab on floaties such as samus and ivy and that dash attack easily sets up the grabs.

MK has good tech options but a ****ty neutral game amirite guys
:^)

 

[woundedust]

Wolf's neutral game: flat out ****ty
errrrr
okay guy

Ok. Twas semi a joke. He has an OK neutral, but its relativly poor compared to other spacies. Or lucas

And i saw somewhere where someone was talking about lucas charged up smash...
It doesnt make where you can get guaranteed follow up with up smash, but it does make for cheese plat form follow ups

 

[kevinw0w]

I agree on yoshi and snake, but MKs tech chase options are simply too good vs most of the cast. Also, Seibrik taught me that kirby has a 0 to death chaingrab on floaties such as samus and ivy and that dash attack easily sets up the grabs.

I think both Kirby's dthrow and dash attack need to be looked at. Imo, dash attack is a little too safe. The chaingrab is definitely busted; it becomes guaranteed after certain percents on different characters, and you can finish that stock with an fsmash or even an upsmash.

 

[NickRiddle]

Don't get grabbed, or stay by the ledge to mitigate the damage.
Gotta play lame against Kirby if you're a floaty.

 

[Player -0]

Don't get grabbed, or stay by the ledge to mitigate the damage.
Gotta play lame against Kirby if you're a floaty.

But Chu is already by the ledge, ready to suck you.

 

[Phan7om]

For Kirby:

• Dthrow more knockback growth
• More ending lag on Dash Attack (not alot but some)
• Melee Kirby Uair knockback angle

 

[kevinw0w]

Kirby's dthrow is basically just like Melee's just you cant attack out of it before Kirby recovers from the animation. I do agree it needs to be looked at tho. You can CG some characters well into the 200s. As long as Kirby can still tech chase and chaingrab (just not as long) with the dthrow im cool with any changes. Dash Attack needs to be reworked i totally agree, been saying that since day 1 of 3.0. Uair needs to send at the Melee angle as well. Thats all really.

from what a Texas Kirby told me, the chaingrab actually gets easier the more percent your opponent has. I know that Ivy can be regrabbed regardless of DI starting at 40%, and Charizard at around 75%.

 

[Phan7om]

from what a Texas Kirby told me, the chaingrab actually gets easier the more percent your opponent has. I know that Ivy can be regrabbed regardless of DI starting at 40%, and Charizard at around 75%.

Yeah it does. Some characters like Mario, Ivy, Bowser, GnW, Chiarzard etc can get CG starting around 35% and will go on forever getting easier as the damage increases.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Kirby dittos are awful. It's all bair camping to avoid getting grabbed, because Kirby can chain grab himself to upsmash kill percent from 0.

 

[Ogopogo]

The only changes I think Kirby needs is a tiiiiny bit more endlag on dash attack so people will stop calling it "unpunishable" and a little faster run speed so techchases can work.

 

[Deleted member]

kirby needs to lose w/e that armor shit he has when he uses inhale

seriously

also can we just admit that warlock punch is useless and give ganon a real neutral b? i vote letting him reflect projectiles like he does in OoT

we should also let him fly like mewtwo/peach, like OoT

if we just try to make him badass with perks he'll probably end up a mid tier anyway

a really fucking sweet mid-tier with good and unique flavor

 

[Phan7om]

Make Ganon's WP land startup-cancel (dont know the proper name for it) like Bowser's and the Links.

 

[Paradoxium]

Make warlock punch come out on frame 1, and give it 1 frame of invincibility

 

[B.W.]

What should his bananas do then?

What about pit's arrows, falco /wolf's lasers, Mario ' s/luigi ' s fire balls, links booomerang, zelda's dins fires etc.

At least with diddy's bananas you can power shield it, clank with it, catch it, tech it AND use it against diddy. If they took away tripping on naners then they should compensate in another way some how. Diddy's projectiles can be used against him rather easily in comparison to other characters.

We could effectively argue why most of the projectiles in the game act the way the do on hit.

You read that wrong.

When Diddy throws his bananas at an opponent that's standing, the banana trips the opponent. It should not.

In previous versions it just caused hitstun, and you could only trip over them if they were stepped on. Which is how it should be. They should not take away tripping from bananas all together, just when thrown.

Also you can powershield all of those projectiles, powershielding shouldn't even be in that list.

 

[NickLeo]

Make Ganon's WP land startup-cancel (dont know the proper name for it) like Bowser's and the Links.

Bowser and Link have a warlock punch? 0_0

 

[Ogopogo]

Regarding Umbreon's suggestion, I don't think everyone needs everything that does something. For example Peach's side-b is near useless but that's okay, and I'm glad the PMBR didn't change it. If Ganon is to be improved I'd rather he have core stuff (such as mobility or grab range) improved, not just given gimmicky stuff.

Ganon reflecting stuff would be cool though.

 

[B.W.]

Peach's side-B was changed. It's better. Sometimes it can kill now too.

 

[Phan7om]

Bowser and Link have a warlock punch? 0_0

Cant tell if sarcasm but w/e. No, Bowser and Link can quickly start up their moves when landing on the ground. Thats what i was referring to. But yeah, I was being sarcastic.

 

[GP&B]

Not every move needs to be useful, but Ganon would most benefit from a form of utility to boost him up some at least past his critical flaws.

 

[Deleted member]

not every move needs a use but ganon has like 4 moves to begin with

 

[Praxis]

You read that wrong.

When Diddy throws his bananas at an opponent that's standing, the banana trips the opponent. It should not.

In previous versions it just caused hitstun, and you could only trip over them if they were stepped on. Which is how it should be. They should not take away tripping from bananas all together, just when thrown.

Also you can powershield all of those projectiles, powershielding shouldn't even be in that list.

And...why? Diddy isn't too good. He's probably not even top ten. Diddy doesn't get guaranteed hits off of the banana hit. All it does is give a (techable) techchase. And you could have wavedashed to catch the banana and thrown it at him. If the Diddy is doing banana OOS because you were being unsafe and you get hit, okay, the Diddy deserves his techchase opportunity- you should try teching the trip.

In previous versions it was a knockdown and it had issues with accidentally spiking people standing on a ledge...IIRC this was the reason for the change. Regardless, there's no reason to nerf something that's not broken.

 

[Praxis]

not every move needs a use but ganon has like 4 moves to begin with

That's not true, he's got bair, fair, dair, dash attack, and...
...
...
Okay fine.

 

[Player -0]

Inb4PMBRchangesWPtoataunt.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Ganon should just have his WP animation for fsmash cause itd be legit, and then I have no clue for his new neutral B. But it should be something else badass as well.

 

[NickLeo]

I keep saying that people will eventually learn the power of the Ganon Ftilt
It's so deceptively good

And regarding the Ganon debate, let's just give him a shine and PK fire and call it a day

 

[B.W.]

And...why? Diddy isn't too good. He's probably not even top ten. Diddy doesn't get guaranteed hits off of the banana hit. All it does is give a (techable) techchase. And you could have wavedashed to catch the banana and thrown it at him. If the Diddy is doing banana OOS because you were being unsafe and you get hit, okay, the Diddy deserves his techchase opportunity- you should try teching the trip.

In previous versions it was a knockdown and it had issues with accidentally spiking people standing on a ledge...IIRC this was the reason for the change. Regardless, there's no reason to nerf something that's not broken.

Just because the character isn't "too good" doesn't mean that they aren't designed poorly. And I do remember a version of the bananas spiking, but I also remember a version of them being what was basically a flinch hit, similar to what happens now when you're in the air.

And that techchase gives Diddy the most free form of approaching ever. Bananas get thrown far, cause trip, and Diddy is fast with a solid tech chase game in the first place. I can't think of any projectile that gives that much of a free approach on hit, while controlling the area around your opponent both on whiff and on contact with shield. Not to mention, throwing the banana is incredibly safe, which makes being able to trip on hit very powerful if Diddy is up close.

Some of this stuff does apply to the player that's able to play the item game better than Diddy, and I won't argue in any sense that it doesn't. But even from the other side, that doesn't make the way bananas work any less stupid.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

People still don't respect the Gerudo Choke? Even if Ganondorf is bad his Side Special is godlike.

Also WizKick is a good move too.

 

[Praxis]

Just because the character isn't "too good" doesn't mean that they aren't designed poorly. And I do remember a version of the bananas spiking, but I also remember a version of them being what was basically a flinch hit, similar to what happens now when you're in the air.

And that techchase gives Diddy the most free form of approaching ever. Bananas get thrown far, cause trip, and Diddy is fast with a solid tech chase game in the first place. I can't think of any projectile that gives that much of a free approach on hit, while controlling the area around your opponent both on whiff and on contact with shield. Not to mention, throwing the banana is incredibly safe, which makes being able to trip on hit very powerful if Diddy is up close.

Some of this stuff does apply to the player that's able to play the item game better than Diddy, and I won't argue in any sense that it doesn't. But even from the other side, that doesn't make the way bananas work any less stupid.

Bananas go far and cause trip, but they are really easy to avoid and shielding the banana allows you to immediately take control over it by jump OOS and Z-catch.

That means Diddy needs to chase the banana to prevent the opponent from taking control of the banana. Except that most players are bad with items and don't attempt to do this.


Literally the only reason Diddy's bananas are a free approach is because people have no idea what to do after shielding one. Bananas do not provide a free approach, unless the opponent is bad at item game. Fortunately for us Diddy players, most people would rather come to Smashboards and cry for the PMBR to nerf Diddy rather than learn item games. Brawl players had to learn item games because there was no one to scream nerf to.

Against an opponent that can hold on to your banana (preventing you from pulling two out) and use it well, throwing a banana blindly is not safe. It is much less safe than, oh, Mario's fireballs, Falco's lasers, etc. Falco's lasers are very similar, in fact, being very safe on hit or in shield and giving followups, except for the part where shielding them lets you take control over them. Against good opponents, naner throws must always be chased. That makes it less free than Falco's lasers.

Bananas aren't "stupid" if you know how to respond to them correctly. Get better.

 

[FlamingForce]

Bananas get thrown far, cause trip, and Diddy is fast with a solid tech chase game in the first place. I can't think of any projectile that gives that much of a free approach on hit, while controlling the area around your opponent both on whiff and on contact with shield. Not to mention, throwing the banana is incredibly safe, which makes being able to trip on hit very powerful if Diddy is up close.

Nanners thrown from far away are yours, just shield and catch or wavedash straight into it, the range should not be an issue and only bad diddys will just throw free nanners from max range at you unless they've caught on to your ****ty item game.

Free approach on hit and contact with shield aka Falco laser btw.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by whiffed nanner but if you mean a blatantly missed throw then you can go ahead and pick it up if it didn't fly clean off the stage.
Shielded nanners can be jumped after and grabbed out of mid-air or they bounce onto a platform where you can grab them just as easy.

Throwing bananas is safe but getting them out in the first place is not (Or shouldn't be provided your opponent isnt bad at the diddy mu.)

 

[B.W.]

Bananas go far and cause trip, but they are really easy to avoid and shielding the banana allows you to immediately take control over it by jump OOS and Z-catch.

That means Diddy needs to chase the banana to prevent the opponent from taking control of the banana. Except that most players are bad with items and don't attempt to do this.


Literally the only reason Diddy's bananas are a free approach is because people have no idea what to do after shielding one. Bananas do not provide a free approach, unless the opponent is bad at item game. Fortunately for us Diddy players, most people would rather come to Smashboards and cry for the PMBR to nerf Diddy rather than learn item games. Brawl players had to learn item games because there was no one to scream nerf to.

Against an opponent that can hold on to your banana (preventing you from pulling two out) and use it well, throwing a banana blindly is not safe. It is much less safe than, oh, Mario's fireballs, Falco's lasers, etc. Falco's lasers are very similar, in fact, being very safe on hit or in shield and giving followups, except for the part where shielding them lets you take control over them. Against good opponents, naner throws must always be chased. That makes it less free than Falco's lasers.

Bananas aren't "stupid" if you know how to respond to them correctly. Get better.

I respond to bananas fine. I keep telling people to play Diddy's item game back, and play it better. Usually after giving this advice, people start to do better against the character. It still doesn't mean that bananas in their current form are bad design.

Telling people to "get better" doesn't make the design of a character better either, which is ultimately what the PMBR is going for. Diddy has a lot more stupid on him than bananas alone, bananas are just most people's number one gripe with the character, whether the player can beat the character or not.

 

[jtm94]

Bananas would be decent even if they caused stun because then they don't trip and get the chance to tech. You just AGT a banana into fair and it's over. You can tech bananas, catch them, throw them away, use them, THE POWER IS YOURS!

Bananas don't even go that far tbh. If you jump and then AGT them they can cover some space, but they don't fly at the speed of lasers or shadow balls or missiles.

All in all if you use items better, which isn't necessarily difficult, you can pressure him back with his own bananas and even bait him to get them and then punish. True story.

 

[Praxis]

I respond to bananas fine. I keep telling people to play Diddy's item game back, and play it better. Usually after giving this advice, people start to do better against the character. It still doesn't mean that bananas in their current form are bad design.

Telling people to "get better" doesn't make the design of a character better either, which is ultimately what the PMBR is going for. Diddy has a lot more stupid on him than bananas alone, bananas are just most people's number one gripe with the character, whether the player can beat the character or not.

You still have not explained why they are a bad design besides using the word "stupid".

And your description of the control bananas gives Diddy is clearly from the perspective of someone who does not have a great banana game.

I think having a 1 frame move that can be jump cancelled in to everything is stupid. PMBR should nerf Fox.

I think Marth's grab is stupid. PMBR should nerf Marth.

I think Jigglypuff's rest is stupid. PMBR should nerf Jigglypuff.

I think the fact that Falco's lasers are an approach and lock people in to their shield is stupid. Nerf Falco.

Diddy's naners are a major part of his approach game and can definitely be dealt with- maybe even with more interaction between the players than Falco's. He's a very interesting character in that regard. You want to nerf naners because you dislike them, but frankly a ton of the Melee characters have a bunch of dislikeable stuff, and you know what? That's what makes them viable characters.

 

[Praxis]

Bananas would be decent even if they causes stun because then they don't trip and get the chance to tech. You just AGT a banana into fair and it's over. You can tech bananas, catch them, throw them away, use them, THE POWER IS YOURS!

Woah, you're right. Glide toss naner to dash attack or pivot smash would be probably be guaranteed if it had the hitstun of, oh, a turnip.

 

[FlamingForce]

I respond to bananas fine.

Yeah see, I don't buy that.
At all.

I got plenty of gripes with plenty of characters, doesn't mean they should be changed.

 

[Ultimate Sneeze]

Multifaceted post here

1.) I don't like Diddy's bananas because I consider it rude to throw garbage at people.

2.) Can we do a Hannibal Lecter skin for Snake? That fellow can play some insane mind games. I love all of the different applications for his specials, the variety just blows me away.

(More serious for a second)

3.) I've been looking into the Ice Climbers recently, and I'm wondering what moves/aspects about them are viable/non-viable. They seem a touch non-intuitive, which is making it harder for me to do an analysis by myself.

4.) And finally, while I realize this isn't a suggestion thread (most of the time), why not give Ganondorf a neutral B that allows him for a short period of time to do a multi-directional hover, maybe with some frames that allow him to backhand projectiles back at his foes? That would help A. Mobility, B. Recovery, C. Relieving projectile pressure and 4. Maintaining his own pressure (an extension of mobility, but still). Plus, it'd be canon.

 

[Praxis]

Diddy shouldn't have 2 bananas, his recovery goes way too far.

Eh, his recovery is overrated. He can't sweetspot the ledge at range, which makes him a Super Captain Falcon. Just stay on the ledge, prepare yourself to intercept if he goes high or just smash him if he goes low.

Diddy should not have 2 nanners lmfao

So, here's the thing: I genuinely think most people who say this don't understand naner logic.



* If Diddy cannot pull a second naner, his opponent grabbing his banana is an enormous disadvantage. Diddy needs the ability to pull his own naner, or suddenly naners become way too risky to let go of. This would actually encourage Diddy to become very campy (as naner OOS is really, really good) so as not to let his naner get in the opponent's hand (whereas right now, if his opponent goes for a banana, Diddy pulls another banana, and they each have one). Diddy would camp for OOS naners or whiffed attacks if he couldn't pull his own naner in response. Can you imagine a game in which Mario loses his fireballs for fifteen seconds if his opponent reflects one, or Peach loses her turnip if someone catches one? Especially this game where it is really easy to catch items (you can even instant AGT if you're offstage so there's no downsides). Two naners on stage keeps the match flowing. Without the ability to pull a second naner when your opponent gets one, Diddy would hold on to his naner for guaranteed followups only.

* A single naner reduces the technical complexity of a character- it's a very common thing for Diddies to throw one naner using something like AGT to cover their attempt to reach a second naner. Techniques like glidetossing and AGT allow Diddy to move during the throw. Diddies use a lot of ATs to move themselves from one naner to the other with their projectiles. Without two naners, there's much less point in these motion techniques, and Diddy's technical requirements go down by a lot.

Project M has already countered the strength of two bananas...through faster, more aggressive gameplay. It's very hard for Diddy to get his second naner out if his opponent understands the risk of that.

Diddy is especially unique in that he can threaten people in the neutral game. His opponent is forced to stay on Diddy, because if he doesn't, Diddy can get two bananas out and set up the stage to control the techchases that follow from a banana hit.

This is where people's lack of matchup knowledge frequently shines through. When the game is reset to neutral, people often let Diddy run away and get two naners. Good people don't do this, because in the high speed of PM...it's actually pretty hard for Diddy to get true control of both naners if his opponent doesn't leave him alone.

If you check the Diddy critique thread on Smashboards, just a couple days ago we had a discussion about how Junebug's biggest issue is that he would always try to get his second banana when he should be keeping his opponent moving and the attempt to get the second banana always allowed his opponent to get a positioning edge on him. In fact, with the high speed of PM, it's very, very hard for Diddy to get his second naner if the opponent understands that it's his opportunity to get a positional advantage.


If you watch good PM players against Diddy, what they do is prevent the Diddy from eever getting his second banana out by always being in a position where going for a second banana pull will cause the Diddy to cede the neutral game.

This is a mistake Junebug (and myself, actually) makes frequently- partially because of Brawl habits (you don't get punished as hard, ceding the neutral game is often worth it for the second banana which punishes harder in Brawl than PM, because there is no naner teching in Brawl). Often, taking any opportunity to pull your second banana cedes the first one to your opponent, or gets you hit.

You'll often see good Diddies not even getting that many naners out, because their opponent stays in a position where refusing to cede that neutral game (and thus not going for the second naner because he can't) is what they have to do.

The naners are Diddy's pressure. Letting Diddy get two naners out and one of them in hand is the same thing as letting Falco dair your shield. The threat of two naners forces your opponent to always stay close enough to you to punish your attempt at a second naner pull and makes the match move forward at a fast pace. You have to keep on Diddy in the same way you have to keep Falco from getting on to you. The fact that this logic is inverted is why people think Diddy is too good (they think they're doing well when Diddy is trying to get his second naner and ceding ground).


Now add to this that Diddy is the perfect combo weight- he gets destroyed if he actually gets hit. This makes for what is, in the end, an extremely well balanced character- a character that is extremely threatening if you let him control the neutral game, but can be threatened in to not being able to get his position of strength, who falls apart when he gets hit without his stage setup. He's got a very solid game without naners, but he gets combo'd like a spacie without being able to pressure and combo like a spacie if he doesn't have a naner. He needs the strong neutral game to overcome the fact that when he gets hit he gets hit bad.

 

[B.W.]

You still have not explained why they are a bad design besides using the word "stupid".

And your description of the control bananas gives Diddy is clearly from the perspective of someone who does not have a great banana game.

I think having a 1 frame move that can be jump cancelled in to everything is stupid. PMBR should nerf Fox.

I think Marth's grab is stupid. PMBR should nerf Marth.

I think Jigglypuff's rest is stupid. PMBR should nerf Jigglypuff.

I think the fact that Falco's lasers are an approach and lock people in to their shield is stupid. Nerf Falco.

Diddy's naners are a major part of his approach game and can definitely be dealt with- maybe even with more interaction between the players than Falco's. He's a very interesting character in that regard. You want to nerf naners because you dislike them, but frankly a ton of the Melee characters have a bunch of dislikeable stuff, and you know what? That's what makes them viable characters.

I already stated the fact that they trip on contact is bad design because of how advantageous being able to cause tripping from long distance is. I didn't know more explanation was needed other than that.

Also none of those moves are fast projectiles that are safe when thrown and also control the stage once they touch the ground, while also forcing the opponent to tech on top of doing the other two things I just stated.

Bananas also have more uses than what I've stated, I only stated the one thing about Diddy's bananas that is disliked by many people. The fact bananas also trip people while their shielding adds another use to them, especially when combined with Glide Tossing. They would seriously be absolutely fine without tripping on grounded hit.

I also said I respond to bananas fine, not that my banana game was "great." I've been playing a character with items as a main tool since Melee (Young Link) and I play Toon Link in PM. I have a fair item game.

Also I'm not the only person who feels bananas are poorly designed. More well known players, including Diddy players like DLA, feel the same.

 

[Praxis]

3.) I've been looking into the Ice Climbers recently, and I'm wondering what moves/aspects about them are viable/non-viable. They seem a touch non-intuitive, which is making it harder for me to do an analysis by myself.

Since PM Ice Climbers have Melee and Brawl desync methods, desynced stuff are ICs biggest strong suite. It's hard stuff to do though.

 

[Praxis]

I already stated the fact that they trip on contact is bad design because of how advantageous being able to cause tripping from long distance is. I didn't know more explanation was needed other than that.

Being able to cause tripping at a long distance is bad design? How? It's high risk. Throwing a banana at that range cedes the banana to the other player. Do you think the target is just going to sit there and not shield the naner?

Also none of those moves are fast projectiles that are safe when thrown and also control the stage once they touch the ground, while also forcing the opponent to tech on top of doing the other two things I just stated.

Naners only control the ground in a techchase sitation. They can be picked up by a wavedash. Including a safe backwards wavedash when they are in front of you. If you can touch a banana you can pick it up.

Falco's laser is a fast projectile that is safe when fired.

Bananas also have more uses than what I've stated, I only stated the one thing about Diddy's bananas that is disliked by many people. The fact bananas also trip people while their shielding adds another use to them, especially when combined with Glide Tossing. They would seriously be absolutely fine without tripping on grounded hit.

Bananas don't trip while shielding, unless you're talking about glide toss down, which requires you to literally be inside of your opponent, or you get shieldpoked.

I also said I respond to bananas fine, not that my banana game was "great." I've been playing a character with items as a main tool since Melee (Young Link) and I play Toon Link in PM. I have a fair item game.

These are both characters that cannot glide toss, so I suspect your item game- and by item game I mean Brawl item game- is not up to par. A lot of PM Peaches have terrible item games because they think it's melee and don't use glide toss and wavedash pickups too.

Also I'm not the only person who feels bananas are poorly designed. More well known players, including Diddy players like DLA, feel the same.

And the namedropping starts...

Tons of players don't feel this way too.