Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

Talking about Mario being super buffed the way he way. I am curious what the reason for it was to give him all that and leave Ness and Pika in their current state where I feel both those characters could use some tweaking.

Because Mario is prob more popular overall with it being Doc and Mario. Gotta cater to your audience, yo

 

[Rᴏb]

Why... are there 2 people on this page... saying Mario is 'supposed' to be an all-round character?
He never has been close, ever, and he's as 'supposed to be all-round' as much as Falco is 'supposed to be flying' LOL

"Like in many other games, Mario is the most well-rounded character in the game" - projectmgame.com
I don't think it was unintentional?


Sidenote: I think this game has come far enough for us to be able to examine the metagame without having to refer back to melees(its starting point basically), is what my point was before.

 

[Bombitty]

If you had just said this, I don't think anyone would have been annoyed.

See:

I said he was overbuffed, not that he needed to be nerfed much to compensate for that. I'd wholly support buffing those characters to be on par with Mario

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

Wasn't a nerf because there was never a version of Project M where Olimar had more than 4 Pikmin.

I was obviously referring to how Olimar was nerfed from six pikmin in Brawl to four pikmin in PM.

Geez, talk about jumping to conclusions...

 

[Strong Badam]

That's like saying Cammy was nerfed in SFxT. Entirely different games with different gameplay mechanics. They are simply different and unrelated representations of a character, neither nerfed nor buffed from each other.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

this move already hits, like... the full length of FD, how much further could you possibly want it to go

I suppose next you will ask for a buff to charizard's nair so it hits the side blast zones from the middle of battlefield

How does Ganonls FTilt hit all the way through an entire stage? It just extends right in front of him.

If you're being sarcastic, you failed miserably. It's F***ing impossible to give your own opinion here without someone qouting your post and tossing your opinion out of the window.

 

[Rᴏb]

That's like saying Cammy was nerfed in SFxT. Entirely different games with different gameplay mechanics. They are simply different and unrelated representations of a character, neither nerfed nor buffed from each other.

Alright, come on.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

That's like saying Cammy was nerfed in SFxT. Entirely different games with different gameplay mechanics. They are simply different and unrelated representations of a character, neither nerfed nor buffed from each other.

Please just shut the f*** up now. MK was nerfed, Ganon was buffed, etc, etc, etc. Everyone else considers the differences between characters as nerfs/buffs, so how is Olimar the exception?

Seriously though, I know I'm being mean, but you're pissing me off with this stupidity.

 

[Nguz95]

As far as I understand it, design is the ultimate goal of the PMBR, not balance. Balance is a byproduct of good design, not the other way around. A well designed character has uses for all of his moves and cannot rely on one or two moves to succeed. A recent example of poor design would be 2.5 Sonic, who had little to no use for some of his moves (usmash) and never had to use some of his moves because down-b took care of everything for him. Obviously this is only one facet of balance, and other factors need to be considered when designing a character, but this concept is particularly applicable to Mario. Leaving Mario with a move that is unecessarily safe is poor design, and now the issue is whether or not Mario's fireball is that kind of move. I personally think it is.

 

[The_NZA]

SB is pretty nit picky about how people refer to semantics about P:M

 

[Ripple]

How does Ganonls FTilt hit all the way through an entire stage? It just extends right in front of him.

If you're being sarcastic, you failed miserably.

Its hyperbole, not sarcasm

 

[Empyrean]

^ And a good one at that.

 

[Nausicaa]

"Like in many other games, Mario is the most well-rounded character in the game" - projectmgame.com
I don't think it was unintentional?


Sidenote: I think this game has come far enough for us to be able to examine the metagame without having to refer back to melees(its starting point basically), is what my point was before.

Why would you even refer to that?
I think you just made my day in terms of forum-awesomeness.

Like many other games? Like what game? He's not even well-rounded in Mario-Kart games in terms of 'average and balanced' let alone in Smash, Melee included as the extreme of this.
Just referring to that comment is like a shot against intelligent thought process. LOL
Falco must be well-rounded too. Lots of hard-hit-boxes, not exceptionally mobile towards forcing or avoiding things, needs to use his tools to lock-down opponent options against him to make up for his lack of breaking neutral. Or maybe Bowser is well-rounded under the same breath. Falcon? Can't get more standard than a jacked humanoid male.
Seriously, taking official comments from whoever made a game-site is about as silly as you can be.
Does it say Dedede is a power-house of strength or something too? XD

THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT SEMANTICS I LOVE IT
You guys and gals are all cute. <3
Rang this Laser that DMG this SB that

In other news, all of the tier-lists I make are the best.

Discuss.

 

[Rᴏb]

Why would you even refer to that?

It makes it clear that the PMBR's intention with Mario was to make him an all-around character, hence why I said he is supposed to be one. Whether or not he actually is one has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.

But he totally is one ffs.

Just referring to that comment is like a shot against intelligent thought process. LOL

ouch

 

[Wrestlemania]

Guys, I found PMBR's Mission Statement!
"To protect the world from devastation, to unite all peoples within our nation, to denounce the evils of truth and love, to extend our reach to the stars above! -Strongbad, TheReflexWonder."

That's Right!

 

[GP&B]

Semantics are fun.

Or is it entertaining? The difference is crucial.

 

[Cassio]

The only thing that needs to be nerfed about mario is his recovery along with almost every other cast member.

 

[Infil]

How does Ganonls FTilt hit all the way through an entire stage? It just extends right in front of him.

If you're being sarcastic, you failed miserably. It's F***ing impossible to give your own opinion here without someone qouting your post and tossing your opinion out of the window.

alright, if I'm not allowed to have fun, I'll spell out the real question my hyperbole was subtly asking anyway

what purpose would extending the range on ganon's ftilt accomplish? he would still struggle with all the same things he currently does (since ftilt is not the source of those problems) and ftilt seems suitably fast and long enough for its current purpose. I don't see how an extended ftilt does anything meaningful for him because when he is in that range, he has already done the hard part and he has good options from that range.

The only thing that needs to be nerfed about mario is his recovery along with almost every other cast member.

except pikachu?

 

[Paradoxium]

Everyone here is so Salty, Where's the love?

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

"Like many other games? Like what game?"

Well, let's see. The 23 Mario sports games, Mario Bros. 2, and Mario 3D world. Take note that the Mario sports games are the only games other than the Mario Kart series that have Mario's name and are in a multiplayer competition based format.

I think that's enough games to assume that Mario can be commonly seen as the "all-around" character in most multiplayer games that have different characters with unique stats.

Edit: That he's in, of course.

 

[Ogopogo]

With everyone having better recoveries overall, and with Sheik still having gimps as a big part of how she plays, what is her position in the game?

 

[Infil]

on a non-salty note, I can sort of sympathize with the people who think recoveries are too good in this game buuuuut I think it's probably too late to change it, since it would be a massive overhaul that would mess with everyone's playstyle/muscle memory.

also, as I've mentioned before, erring on the side of recoveries being too good (rather than too bad) is the right call by the devs. characters that are free or easy to gimp is the first step to forcing them to have massively crazy on-stage tools to compensate, which is a) hard to design and b) extremely polarizing (and therefore probably not very fun) to play against. PM in its current form is pretty dang close to the right mix of gimpable recoveries and no character being free to gimp by the entire cast. and you can see the effect it's had... way more viable characters, way more fun designs, and gimps still happen and are hype when they do, as opposed to an inevitability.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

Its hyperbole, not sarcasm

alright, if I'm not allowed to have fun, I'll spell out the real question my hyperbole was subtly asking anyway

what purpose would extending the range on ganon's ftilt accomplish? he would still struggle with all the same things he currently does (since ftilt is not the source of those problems) and ftilt seems suitably fast and long enough for its current purpose. I don't see how an extended ftilt does anything meaningful for him because when he is in that range, he has already done the hard part and he has good options from that range.



except pikachu?

Your opinion.

 

[Infil]

can you give me an example scenario where an extended ganon ftilt hitbox would help him in the matchup? what matchups does he struggle in the ftilt range but not elsewhere? these are non-sarcastic questions I would like you to answer, so I can better understand your opinion

 

[Plum]

With everyone having better recoveries overall, and with Sheik still having gimps as a big part of how she plays, what is her position in the game?

she still has the tools to edgeguard almost every character

 

[Oracle]

Yo but my olimar tho

 

[bandi]

The things Ganon struggles the most with are projectiles and pressure. Imho there aren't enough oos options or rather useful options. Lengthening Ganon's ftilt would be for the birds because it's good as it is now. He needs something very different, some sort of Triforce steroids.

 

[Cassio]

on a non-salty note, I can sort of sympathize with the people who think recoveries are too good in this game buuuuut I think it's probably too late to change it, since it would be a massive overhaul that would mess with everyone's playstyle/muscle memory.

also, as I've mentioned before, erring on the side of recoveries being too good (rather than too bad) is the right call by the devs. characters that are free or easy to gimp is the first step to forcing them to have massively crazy on-stage tools to compensate, which is a) hard to design and b) extremely polarizing (and therefore probably not very fun) to play against. PM in its current form is pretty dang close to the right mix of gimpable recoveries and no character being free to gimp by the entire cast. and you can see the effect it's had... way more viable characters, way more fun designs, and gimps still happen and are hype when they do, as opposed to an inevitability.

Everyone already has a good recovery, its called having good DI, which competent players will strive for and achieve. If a character was getting gimped too frequently it was probably because they were fighting a character with a strong ability to edge guard. If it caused someone to be OP then nerf the gimp tool which affects one character, buffing a recovery to compensate instead now means every character has to deal with that BS. The logic was bad, buffing recoveries now means you need to buff onstage games for characters that relied on gimps . The effect its had is dumbing down the game for the sake of making the cast more viable to mid-level play.

Saying its too late to correct something so massive basically leaves the game open to criticism for its entire existance.

 

[Nguz95]

Yo but my olimar tho

Vids or it didn't happen.

 

[Oracle]

Improved recoveries also mean that you can go even deeper when edgegarding without taking huge risk. No character gets back to the stage for free.

^I played him in some doubles games yesterday, hopefully theyll get uploaded soon

 

[Nausicaa]

3.02 Expected End-Meta 2-Point Bell-Curve by Bamesy v.16/02/14

​

Spoiler

+=

Spoiler

ain' gon' 'splain shi' jus' 'njoy

 

[mYzeALot]

Can you explain to me what that means Nausicaa?

 

[Kokomaniac]

Can we give ness slightly longer range on his jab and tilts (plus disjoint on his utilt) and slightly longer range on his nair and bair, and a significantly faster dash? I feel like that might be a bit much cuz I think ness might be in a semi decent place despite people putting him low with the same explanation (he just doesn't have the right tools/not buffed enough/blah)

 

[Bryonato]

Not the right place to ask for Ness changes imo. There's a whole thread dedicated to it back in the Ness boards.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Not the right place? Just because it's ness? But we can ***** all day about the top 30 right

 

[Strong Badam]

Guys, I found PMBR's Mission Statement!
"To protect the world from devastation, to unite all peoples within our nation, to denounce the evils of truth and love, to extend our reach to the stars above! -Strongbad, TheReflexWonder."

we still haven't lost a tourney whenever we've teamed

 

[Nguz95]

Can you explain to me what that means Nausicaa?

I'm going to do some research and provide my best possible explanation soon. From what limited knowledge I currently have it seems to be a fairly sound list. I like it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

That's like saying Cammy was nerfed in SFxT. Entirely different games with different gameplay mechanics. They are simply different and unrelated representations of a character, neither nerfed nor buffed from each other.

I'll agree with this mentality, but at the same time, the general consensus behind Olimar is that he is either lacking design space or lacking in his interaction with the rest of the cast in his current build to do very well.

 

[Plum]

Olimar is fine in terms of viability imo, but he is the most uninspired character in the game.
That's not limited to PM mind you. I think he's the most uninspired character in Brawl too.
And just Smash in general.
It's like taking everything that's amazing about Pikmin as a series, throwing it away, and then adding a heaping pile of bland.

 

[Oracle]

yo but my olimar tho