Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

^True, but that in no way means that he was over-buffed. He does a lot of things well, but he is not overpowered and I see absolutely no reason to nerf him. He has just as much right to be in the top 10 as any other character. The PMBR did a great job with him and messing with him at this point would be a mistake.

 

[Nguz95]

Yeah that's probably right. The only thing I could see getting changed is fireball cooldown, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Jacob29]

Another list with Bowser at the top.

Guess I just need to learn2play...

 

[Rᴏb]

I'll agree that Mario is overbuffed in that the only buff I think should be reverted are his fireballs... At the time of writing this post. This buff alone lets him shutdown characters like Pickachu and Ganon, which imo, isn't a good thing because these characters already don't have enough going for them. In order to create a balanced cast for this game, changes based on matchups need to occur because they are the ultimate decider of viability. Frankly, I find that kinda boring, but so it goes.

Projectiles (and recoveries, but that is a whole other discussion) really screw with this game.

 

[Terotrous]

Let's keep putting Olimar at the bottom.

Also Olimar with 6 Pikmin could potentialy be broken. Like, he has massive damage output with 4. But 6? God damn, forget it.

Every good character in this game is at least kinda broken on some level. If you don't have at least some aspect of your game that's really strong, you'll be outclassed by people who do.

For example, look at what they did to Lucario. "Letting him cancel his attacks into each other and giving him super powered versions of his moves? That could be broken!" And it kind of is, but no more so than other people's broken stuff.


Olimar with 6 pikmin might be OP, but I think it's at least worth testing out. Right now he definitely feels a little weak and limited, and I feel the 4 pikmin nerf is a big part of it.


Oh, and don't mistake this me for a disgruntled Olimar main, I do play him occasionally, but with how he plays in Brawl I feel it's almost impossible to like him. He's just a force of nature that has to be worked around. And it just doesn't feel right for him to be nerfed into uselessness here, especially now that lots of people finally got the tools to deal with him.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

I don't think the four Pikmin nerf was that bad. It forces you to more carefully choose where to toss them. I think people need to play as him more and develop his metagame. Olimar is unfairly left out in people's main list often, the reason being that people who come from Melee don't like him, being a Brawl character (A projectile based one at that) and people who come from Brawl don't like his four pikmin nerf. This goes double for people who mained him.

All the PMBR needs to do is buff the pikmin he has and give them greater priority, and maybe increase his knockback on some moves.

 

[Deleted member]

This buff alone lets him shutdown characters like Pikachu and Ganon, which imo, isn't a good thing because these characters already don't have enough going for them.

To reiterate my previous point, I believe that you are working at the wrong end of the issue. Instead of making Mario worse, Pikachu and Ganondorf should be carefully buffed in key areas. Nerfing strong-but-not-overpowered characters just so that the worse characters become relatively better isn't my idea of proper balancing.

 

[DMG]

I said he was overbuffed, not that he needed to be nerfed much to compensate for that. I'd wholly support buffing those characters to be on par with Mario: I'm just stating the disparity on how much he got buffed, vs the "average" amount a character might get. He was buffed more than he should have been, and the Fireball area is questionable.

 

[Rᴏb]

To reiterate my previous point, I believe that you are working at the wrong end of the issue. Instead of making Mario worse, Pikachu and Ganondorf should be carefully buffed in key areas. Nerfing strong-but-not-overpowered characters just so that the worse characters become relatively better isn't my idea of proper balancing.

Mario is known to be an all-around character and I think he has aspects to him that other characters should either be able to match, or exceed, granted they have some weaknesses to counter their strengths. I feel that his projectile is an aspect of his character that is better than all-around, that's why I think this nerf in particular is warranted. That doesn't mean Ganon doesn't have a whole other slew of issues that need to be addressed.
I believe changes should be based on both ends of the issue, rather than just one.

Edit: What we each consider "the issue" may be two entirely different things. If you are talking about the issue being Mario's fireball, I believe that it should be dealt with directly. The simplest way to do this is only alter Mario. If the issue you are actually talking about is Ganon (or any character) needing some extreme matchups fixed, then I stand by what I originally said.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

I second a Ganon buff. Better Wavedash options, less lag, extended hitbox on jab and Ftilt.

 

[Infil]

I second a Ganon buff. extended hitbox on Ftilt.

this move already hits, like... the full length of FD, how much further could you possibly want it to go

I suppose next you will ask for a buff to charizard's nair so it hits the side blast zones from the middle of battlefield

 

[woundedust]

Ganon needs more OOS options and and a decent wavedash to be viable.

 

[Oracle]

this move already hits, like... the full length of FD, how much further could you possibly want it to go

I suppose next you will ask for a buff to charizard's nair so it hits the side blast zones from the middle of battlefield

Charizard really needs that to be viable. What kind of bad character has to move around the stage to hit his opponent?

Also my olimar is the truth. Just ask denti

 

[DMG]

I asked him

He said your Olimar was trash and the only Olimar worth watching is Lamar the Olimar

 

[Burnsy]

I dont understand the logic that 150, hell even 500 people who are inexperienced with matchups would give you a more accurate voted-on tier list than 50. I mean you decrease the affect that outliers have on the overall results, but both lists will probably be just about the same level of inaccuracy. I think surveys are a really, really bad measure unless you can set requirements somehow to keep out low-level assumptions. There's a reason most of the tier lists that FGC players look at are ones developed by their pros.

There also needs to be an option to opt out of rating a MU you aren't sure on rather than guessing or just going with whatever popular opinion is at the time (never seen a tier/MU survey do this). Finally if your tier list isn't evaluating characters based on their viability (I.e. Matchups) then you are evaluating them within a vacuum most of the time.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think the four Pikmin nerf was that bad.

Wasn't a nerf because there was never a version of Project M where Olimar had more than 4 Pikmin.

 

[Paradoxium]

I'll agree that Mario is overbuffed in that the only buff I think should be reverted are his fireballs... At the time of writing this post. This buff alone lets him shutdown characters like Pickachu and Ganon, which imo, isn't a good thing because these characters already don't have enough going for them. In order to create a balanced cast for this game, changes based on matchups need to occur because they are the ultimate decider of viability. Frankly, I find that kinda boring, but so it goes.

Projectiles (and recoveries, but that is a whole other discussion) really screw with this game.

How do fire balls shut down Pikachu?

 

[The_NZA]

#unviable (10chars)

 

[OidBirdie]

I would welcome the mario fireball 'fix'. I feel like his current fireball violates his design. He's supposed to be an all-rounder who is better at a close distance. His original fireball allowed him to be decent at a distance, not excel in that area as well. His biggest weakness was 'getting in'. Right now he doesn't have that issue because he's content with playing the ranged game. I think it's the only mario buff i don't agree with.
I generally hate recovery buffs, but Mario's is fine by me. His recovery, while good, is somewhat overrated because it is stage-dependent. When someone counter picks a stage where he can't wall jump his recovery suddenly becomes less than amazing.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You can clank those fireballs so they are OK as they are

 

[DMG]

Clanking Fireballs usually means doing an attack, while Mario recovers from Fireball lag. Before, you might have been able to punish sloppy fireball usage by clanking/overpowering them, but the cooldown changes make it hard for even a close character to prove how bad/sloppy it was

 

[Chesstiger2612]

But you can also evade and mix up your options. They are far from overpowered.

 

[DMG]

They were fine before, and did not need that big of a cooldown buff. It doesn't contribute something healthy to Mario or to the game in general.

 

[Rᴏb]

How do fire balls shut down Pikachu?

Pikachu's projectile game is comparatively worse than Mario's. He gets shut down in that respect.

You can clank those fireballs so they are OK as they are

Wizard kick being able to clank with a fireball is not a good thing.

 

[The_NZA]

Yes.

Say that most people put him in the top 3 or top 5 of the cast. I think that's wrong, and would put him in the top 8 or top 10. On the same token, relative to other characters around him in Melee, he got a lot of buffs/additional value that they usually did not. Take Pikachu and Ganon; not that it would be easy to buff either one correctly but they could have gotten more love instead of martyo

Slightly overrated and overbuffed character.

The second part of this is egregiously terrible logic for all the reasons already listed. PM is a new game: whoever makes it to the top is there and thats fine and dandy. The only goal the BR set out to do was to make a balanced cast. That meant making sure no one lags too far behind---but it never was a goal of the BR to carefully retain the Melee tier list in the order.

 

[The_NZA]

I think we all just need to accept that DMG hates projectiles...

 

[DMG]

My post had nothing to do with maintaining the Melee tier list, or that certain characters deserve to be better than others. The point was that for characters around Mario on the old tier list, he seemed to get the most buffs, and that doesn't seem quite fair if characters below him would need or deserve that level of attention on buffs. Mario was in a much better place than a "bad" Melee character, but got quite a few goodies in the transition where as someone else may feel left behind.

The point about other characters lagging behind is what I'm talking about. Mario started out "ahead" of some of these people, and then got more attention when it came to buffs? I don't claim that it's easy per se to balance the game, but it took awhile just to get something as minor as buffed G^W tech rolls ya know?

 

[Strong Badam]

The second part of this is egregiously terrible logic for all the reasons already listed. PM is a new game: whoever makes it to the top is there and thats fine and dandy. The only goal the BR set out to do was to make a balanced cast. That meant making sure no one lags too far behind---but it never was a goal of the BR to carefully retain the Melee tier list in the order.

Indeed. Theoretically, no character is "entitled" to any particular spot on the tier list, and where they end up as a result of balancing & "improving designs" isn't of concern to us.

 

[JOE!]

Except if they are dead bottom to the point of them becoming unviable, and thus against the project's goals.

 

[DMG]

People are deriving logic and arguments from my posts, that I'm not even supporting

What are you guys doing, stahp

Mario over buffed =/= I want him cawkslapped with nerfs

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu's projectile game is comparatively worse than Mario's. He gets shut down in that respect.

So the character with the better projectile wins? Is that how every match ends up?

 

[Rᴏb]

DMG, that logic is just gross. I don't think it's appropriate to even use the melee tier list as a frame of reference for this game. You arguing for a Mario nerf and yet you fail to directly explain why this nerf is warranted. You simply say "because x characters didn't also get this extra buff, Mario shouldn't have it". I do not understand how that can possibly make sense. You need an actual reason for the nerf that you can explain in terms of matchups.

 

[Rᴏb]

So the character with the better projectile wins? Is that how every match ends up?

I don't think you're understanding why I'm saying, lol. When I said "in that respect" I was only talking about their projectile game, not their general matchup...

I'm simply saying Mario has a better projectile than Pikachu, who already has a pretty good projectile. The fact that Mario's is simply better than so many other characters, while Mario is supposed to be an all-around character just doesn't make sense.

 

[Burnsy]

Balancing vs improving design is a good distinction to keep in mind, wish more people were aware of it

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't think you're understanding why I'm saying, lol. When I said "in that respect" I was only talking about their projectile game, not their general matchup...

I'm simply saying Mario has a better projectile than Pikachu, who already has a pretty good projectile. The fact that Mario's is simply better than so many other characters, while Mario is supposed to be an all-around character just doesn't make sense.

AAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just making sure, can't let anyone disrespect Pikachu

 

[DMG]

omg

Ok last time I will explain it

SUPER OMEGA MARIO POST:


Mario got a lot of love. I am ok with most of this love when it comes to viability or contributing to a deeper game, besides the Fireball change. I do not support that, because I find it unnecessary and not very contributive towards showcasing player skill any better than "old" Fireball cooldown. None of this has to do with Melee.


The logic I see is this: Mario was "x" good in Melee. To keep up in PM, or to have a more satisfying character regardless of the rest of the cast, he was developed and buffed to this new level. I find it odd that some characters below or around "x" goodness in Melee were given less attention/buffs than Mario was. You would assume that the worse a character is, the more help they would probably need to keep up in the new game right? If you accept that line of thought as valid, then it seems odd that people like Ness or G&W or Pika or blah blah character did not get as much help as Mario got.


My posts have nothing to do with "Mario or any character deserves to be this good or this bad". They are about questioning the amount of attention Mario has gotten, in comparison to other characters that might honestly have needed a lotttt of help, and that it seems tilted in his favor when compared to what those other characters received.


I don't want a super nerfed Mario. I'd prefer other characters be made better. Thank you and have a wonderful day

 

[Nausicaa]

Why... are there 2 people on this page... saying Mario is 'supposed' to be an all-round character?
He never has been close, ever, and he's as 'supposed to be all-round' as much as Falco is 'supposed to be flying' LOL

 

[CyberZixx]

I am with DMG on this one. I do not think Mario needs to have fireballs like that. I don't see why he needs to get free smash attacks off of fireballs that serves a fine enough purpose before. I feel it is too great a possible reward.

Talking about Mario being super buffed the way he way. I am curious what the reason for it was to give him all that and leave Ness and Pika in their current state where I feel both those characters could use some tweaking.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't want a super nerfed Mario. I'd prefer other characters be made better. Thank you and have a wonderful day

If you had just said this, I don't think anyone would have been annoyed. You were a little vague when you used terms like "overbuffed", because the implication is that the character was buffed more than he/she should have been.

 

[The_NZA]

All I want from the next version is a buffed ganon, a buffed Ness, some changes to Olimar, make Zelda's hitboxes more obvious and lets just let the ****ing metagame/matchup knowledge develop before there is further action. Thank you.