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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
jtm94
Smash Lord
Ness isn't all that bad. He's more well-rounded than people make him out to be. And has one of the best projectiles, even if shielded. His fair is also pretty safe unless fighting swords.
I also know that Ganon isn't as bad as he is made out to be, but he does lose to lolthrowmoreprojectiles and lolgoinforguaranteedcombopressuewithshine. He needs no more KO power because that man is a freaking tank, KO power oozes out him. He just needs more useful moves that can help in converting something into anything.
I also know that Ganon isn't as bad as he is made out to be, but he does lose to lolthrowmoreprojectiles and lolgoinforguaranteedcombopressuewithshine. He needs no more KO power because that man is a freaking tank, KO power oozes out him. He just needs more useful moves that can help in converting something into anything.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
LMAO, this reminds me: We SUPER need an "Easy Tier List Maker" Java/Flash website/app like they have for other fighting games. If I could code I'd be rich with my simple fill-a-need ideas. Can you go over what makes Luigi top tier again (or link me to some post where you did)? And maybe Yoshi too. With Peach I remember you saying the big thing was her weaknesses at the ledge being lessened.3.02 Expected End-Meta 2-Point Bell-Curve by Bamesy v.16/02/14
+
ain' gon' 'splain shi' jus' 'njoy
Here's my on-the-spot list
Fox
Falco, Wolf, Mario, MK, Sheik
Snake, Lucas, Yoshi, ROB, DK, Peach, Zelda, Link, Pit, Kirby
Wario, ZSS, Diddy, Sonic, Ike, Marth, Falcon, Pikachu, Ivysaur
Squirtle, Lucario, Mewtwo, Roy, Samus, Toon Link, Luigi, D3
Ness, Charizard, Ganon
Ice Climbers, Olimar, Bowser, GnW
Jiggly
Old possibly misquoted recollections
Metroid thinks Charizard should be higher than Ike [Post], I'm not so sure
Mach thinks Ivysaur is still really good [Chat], I'm not so sure
People ranking ZSS/DK low, no
People ranking Yoshi/Kirby high (B/c of Shield?D-throw?), I'll go with it
People/Oro/Rat think Wolf is really good, probably
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Bell-Curve best format next to McCafe Tier-Maker charts.
Peach is just silly and fits in a silly place in this game.
Yoshi would be on par with the Top Tier in Melee if you just took his Melee-self and made him able to Jump OOS. Then PM came along and made a Yoshi that was good even without jumping OOS, and made him able to jump OOS. +Whatever else, and the way his method of play is pretty dominating in a lot of ways that work well in Smash overall, etc ,etc. Peach-style in that sense, just works in Smash, regardless of any conditions.
MK is basically a neutral manipulator, and happens to probably do that best in a broad way of all the broad neutral manipulator character methods, so he gets a spot in the big-leagues.
Edit: It's not even like this Tier of characters is ranked high, or that the ROB/DK stuff is low, it's a Bell-Curve. The middle is a chunky soup but with distinct splits, the splits show something, but don't mean much in terms of make-or-breaking.
Look at Falcon on this list. Such odd factors come into play for him being 'better' than Falco/Marth, from big stages to polarization for and against him.
The hard part of predicting this kind of thing isn't knowing how good a character is relative to how good they do against individual characters or the greater cast overall, it's staying clear-headed when all these 'clusters' of understanding have to be clustered into a single ball.
Game is good.
Editedit:
Peach is just silly and fits in a silly place in this game.
Yoshi would be on par with the Top Tier in Melee if you just took his Melee-self and made him able to Jump OOS. Then PM came along and made a Yoshi that was good even without jumping OOS, and made him able to jump OOS. +Whatever else, and the way his method of play is pretty dominating in a lot of ways that work well in Smash overall, etc ,etc. Peach-style in that sense, just works in Smash, regardless of any conditions.
MK is basically a neutral manipulator, and happens to probably do that best in a broad way of all the broad neutral manipulator character methods, so he gets a spot in the big-leagues.
Follow the links...
Edit: It's not even like this Tier of characters is ranked high, or that the ROB/DK stuff is low, it's a Bell-Curve. The middle is a chunky soup but with distinct splits, the splits show something, but don't mean much in terms of make-or-breaking.
Look at Falcon on this list. Such odd factors come into play for him being 'better' than Falco/Marth, from big stages to polarization for and against him.
The hard part of predicting this kind of thing isn't knowing how good a character is relative to how good they do against individual characters or the greater cast overall, it's staying clear-headed when all these 'clusters' of understanding have to be clustered into a single ball.
Game is good.
Editedit:
Do it, I'd like to see what you come up with. ;P
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Nguz95
Smash Lord
Alright, I will. First, you assumed the distribution of characters was normal. Then you put the characters in two normal curves, rotaded them vertically, and then put them together. The farther away from the center the characters are in your list, the more standard deviations from the mean they are. That means characters like Lucas and Wolf are about 2 standard deviations from the mean, while DDD is the only character who is three standard deviations from the mean (on the low end I'm assuming). If you just turned your graph into one normal curve, which imo would be easier to read, it would look like this:
Even though it's not exactly a normal curve, it's pretty intuitive. The mean is line that separates Samus' column from Cfal's column. The standard deviation is two columns, which means if you make an indicator for each standard deviation, you get this:
II
II
II
IIII
As you can see, a majority of the cast (0.68) of the cast falls within one standard deviation of the mean. Once you go two standard deviations out from the mean, you get 0.97 of the cast. Only when you reach three standard deviations do you get all of the cast. Note: in a perfect normal curve, you expect 0.68, 0.95, 0.997 of the data to fall within 1, 2, and 3 standard deviations from the mean respectively. Not too shabby!
The way you interpret this is as follows: starting from the top of the farthest right column, you count down. This puts Nausicaa's tier list with Lucas at the top, Wolf as second, Luigi as third, and so forth.
If you look closely at his list, some interesting notes pop up. There are no characters who are three standard deviations from the mean on the high side, meaning that the true distribution is slightly left skew. That indicates the high tiers are closer together than the low tiers. No one character is significantly better than the rest, but one (DDD) is worse than the rest. Remember, there are no outliers, which means that being three standard deviations from the mean isn't an indicator that DDD is completely unviable. On the contrary, it means he is close to being part of the rest of the cast, but is bad enough to be singular.
Honestly I think this is the best way to construct a tier list because it gives people a way to visually show each character's relative viability. If you think Fox is leagues ahead of the cast, you can put him 3, even 4 standard deviations from the mean. If you think there are a lot of people clumped at the bottom (or there are outliers at the top), you can make the distribution skew right. If you think there is a gap between the mid tier and the bottom tier, you can shift the bottom tier over one standard deviation. It's also pretty easy to make, takes up less space, and is more visually appealing than a standard tier list.
How did I do?
Even though it's not exactly a normal curve, it's pretty intuitive. The mean is line that separates Samus' column from Cfal's column. The standard deviation is two columns, which means if you make an indicator for each standard deviation, you get this:
IIIIIIIIII
The way you interpret this is as follows: starting from the top of the farthest right column, you count down. This puts Nausicaa's tier list with Lucas at the top, Wolf as second, Luigi as third, and so forth.
If you look closely at his list, some interesting notes pop up. There are no characters who are three standard deviations from the mean on the high side, meaning that the true distribution is slightly left skew. That indicates the high tiers are closer together than the low tiers. No one character is significantly better than the rest, but one (DDD) is worse than the rest. Remember, there are no outliers, which means that being three standard deviations from the mean isn't an indicator that DDD is completely unviable. On the contrary, it means he is close to being part of the rest of the cast, but is bad enough to be singular.
Honestly I think this is the best way to construct a tier list because it gives people a way to visually show each character's relative viability. If you think Fox is leagues ahead of the cast, you can put him 3, even 4 standard deviations from the mean. If you think there are a lot of people clumped at the bottom (or there are outliers at the top), you can make the distribution skew right. If you think there is a gap between the mid tier and the bottom tier, you can shift the bottom tier over one standard deviation. It's also pretty easy to make, takes up less space, and is more visually appealing than a standard tier list.
How did I do?
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Kokomaniac
Smash Journeyman
This is what I said should be done a couple pages back. Good idea.
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
There's some site that let's people make their own tier...
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/
Maybe we could make something like that for Smash?
[strike]or just berate the site makers to put in Melee/Brawl/whatevs until they have to hear our demands.[/strike]
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/
Maybe we could make something like that for Smash?
[strike]or just berate the site makers to put in Melee/Brawl/whatevs until they have to hear our demands.[/strike]
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
How do people feel about Ice Climbers? I just can't seem to get a feel for how good or bad they are. Of course wobbling is no longer an option, but ICs still have some nasty throw combos
Problem2
Smash Champion
All these Olimar haters haven't done their research. Why don't you clock in the lab for a few days and actually look at what Olimar has. -__-
Arguing that he's boring, eh, I can understand I guess? People have preferences and stuff, but Olimar DOES have unique game mechanics. No one is taking advantage of them right now though.
Olimar sucks though? His attacks pack about the same punch as Ganon. He's harder to hit though because he's small, has a better recovery, and has a projectile.
Arguing that he's boring, eh, I can understand I guess? People have preferences and stuff, but Olimar DOES have unique game mechanics. No one is taking advantage of them right now though.
Olimar sucks though? His attacks pack about the same punch as Ganon. He's harder to hit though because he's small, has a better recovery, and has a projectile.
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MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Why ask for buffs when you can just pick a top tier?
KevinTurtle
KevinTurtle
Blade-Fox
Smash Apprentice
I always see sparks of some scary desynch combo with Ice Climbers. Unfortunately, none of them land or amount to what I imagined in my mind. They have a few grab combos now but I think there's a lot more out there and that it's only a matter of time before they come out. They're winning matches but I still feel like there's some "beast" waiting to come out. That's how I feel about Olimar as well.
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- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Why ask for buffs when you can pick Fox
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Shine needs invinc pls.
bandi
Smash Cadet
Why pick fox when there still is giga bowser.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Giga Fox plz
bandi
Smash Cadet
Do not take my comment and make it
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Yupperz
I think it was one of my first ever comments in this thread, and I've messaged those mmcafe people about it a few times. They need to be spammed.
1) You got it all, except Dedede is missing from the 1st Spot on the interpretation.
How did I do?
2) I totally thought you were going to come up with ideas on why people are where they are too.
3) Excellent explanation of the layout.
4) A missing note may be how a Curve forces distinct separation and it the most 'balanced' a list of something can be, and this game is 'balanced' so could use it.
Has anyone actually said Olimar flat-out sucks?
Ness and Ganon and Jiggs and Squirt don't even suck. lol
jtm94
Smash Lord
Boss was putting in mild work with Olimar at Xanadu. That doesn't mean a crap ton, but someone actually used the character, so that's good.
I think I'm going to just secondary Fox so anytime I lose I can just choose the superior Fox and win.
I think I'm going to just secondary Fox so anytime I lose I can just choose the superior Fox and win.
BigglesWorth
Smash Apprentice
For personal understanding, what would everyone consider to be an unacceptable matchup (to making a counter pick next to impossible for an opponenent to win)? As in, what point would a matchup determined to be a balance issue (70/30; 80/20; 72/28)? Would you put a cap on the amount of favorable matchups or unfavorable matchups each a character has (10 bad matchups means needing buff or 20 good matchups needs a nerf)? Would you have specific caps for specific amounts (like more than 2 70/30 matchups is a balance issue kind of thing)? I am curious who and how could define their own ideal for balance and design in this fashion. I figure it would be interesting see if this is a more simple and more conclusive way of modeling it.
*Edit: Forgot the K in kind
*Edit: Forgot the K in kind
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D
Deleted member
Guest
the more i play PM the more i think fox is top tier by himself.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
"what the **** these characters can recover from anywhere" ~Fox players, demonstrating a lack of self awareness rarely seen outside of Fox News
Sashimi
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 25, 2013
- Messages
- 704
woundedust
Smash Apprentice
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
... I actually kind of want this.
Press L to activate. Fox gets James McCloud shades, Falco Dair, Falco Side-Smash. Ground Shine pops up like Falco's, aerial Shine works like vFox's. Lasers do hit-stun but fire as fast as vFox's. Recovery is vFox's.
It will be an abomination that was never meant to be, and shall devour P:M whole.
And, of course ...
Press L to activate. Fox gets James McCloud shades, Falco Dair, Falco Side-Smash. Ground Shine pops up like Falco's, aerial Shine works like vFox's. Lasers do hit-stun but fire as fast as vFox's. Recovery is vFox's.
It will be an abomination that was never meant to be, and shall devour P:M whole.
And, of course ...
JUMP-CANCELLABLE SIDE SPECIAL HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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woundedust
Smash Apprentice
Dont forget to give him wings so he can jump 5 times.
And lets make him legal in tournament as well.
Or we could just make james mccloud a character with fusion of fox and falco that is dragon ball z like
Empyrean
Smash Champion
Fox doesn't need wings to fly. He flies with the knowledge of being too damn good at this game. I am still waiting for that faithful day when the meta will have evolved so much that he will have a 0:100 matchup vs DDD. Yup .
.
woundedust
Smash Apprentice
I KNOW HOW TO BUFF FOX TO BEING VIABLE
LETS GIVE SHONE MULTIPLE HITBOXES
LETS GIVE SHONE MULTIPLE HITBOXES
Apollo Ali
Smash Journeyman
Nausica how do you justify Luigi, Peach and Pikachu being better than characters he was considered worse than in Melee?
Like, what? I think your stuff is p interesting at times, but that really has to be explained. Are there some major buffs that I don't know about?
Like, what? I think your stuff is p interesting at times, but that really has to be explained. Are there some major buffs that I don't know about?
^You say 'he' but do you mean 'them' ?
Peach really wasn't 'much' worse that the 'better characters' in Melee, I wouldn't even class her as a Tier below 'Top' in that game. In PM, there are minor things that happened to everything of course. The thing that hurts Peach in this game is her lack of ability to corner characters as well, but fortunately for her, there aren't many more characters she has to work like that against. Otherwise, she's very well rounded and generally won't get clobbered hard by anything. Nothing from big and sluggish heavy-hitters to floaty-fast projectile spammers really threaten her to a point where she's not working at least like 90% as functional as she can be. Other methods of play and character styles, due to the traits others have that are a little more polarizing here or there, she's more universally functional than almost anyone. Top that off with her being probably the best of this style of play, and throw in some little tweaks to get rid of some pin-point weaknesses to keep her better in this niche than most new-comers, and she's set for life.
It's not that she's notably better than Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/etc, it's just that she doesn't have anything notably 'abuse-able' about her, like at all, where others at least have hints of things in certain areas.
Pika and Luigi it makes sense to question, as they're considered pretty much trash universally in both Melee and PM, unlike Peach... but if you need more explanation on Peach specifically I can go into actual details.
For Pika, I won't elaborate much, but the Up-B changes alone basically open up a dynamic to his game that wasn't even there before. Pika is a new character in PM, and as of 3.0, he can really hardly be related to his Melee-self. He's further from his Melee-self than PM Mario to Melee Mario is, just from the Up-B working the way it does. From on-stage QA1 and complete freedom with off-stage game, specifically about it. Otherwise, there's nothing like significantly improving things like Grab range, Aerials in various ways, and having bigger Stages overall in the game, when talking about a character who is already Tops in speed in the game even outside the QA1 stupid-speed stuff.
Luigi is basically the same idea. He's not comparable in the slightest to his Melee-self, and is further from it than Mario. Even his basic combos aren't carried over, since he has things like U-Air > Down-B > DJ Misfire/Up-B free-crap on every character at any %. His recovery isn't the worst in the game next to Kirby or something like Melee, and his neutral game (the thing everyone thinks is the worst in the game next to Ganon or something) doesn't even work the same, especially with the incorporation of Brawl mechanics like Turn-Around and Crawling when applied to his friction and distance-speed game. Big stages are great for him more than anyone in the game save maybe Falcon, Sonic, Pika, and a few spammers. Not just for freedom of movement, but the polarizing nature of his ability to kill things off hits.
tl;dr Peach functions similarly, with minor buffs, but the way she functions is good for the overall game so nothing hinders her. Pika and Luigi aren't at all comparable to their Melee counter-parts and aside from the very vague and blunt things like "They like N-Airs in different ways" there's no reason to consider them relating to their Melee-selves. Even Mario has more similar-functioning and appearing things to his game, and everyone knows how much 'better' he got.
Nguz did a good job of explaining the nuances and benefits of a Curve list, and the way I had it set up. In which case, it's work explaining so people understand, since it's pretty much the most valuable thing regarding format probably in this thread in terms of directly making what everyone is discussing... into something applicable.
Peach really wasn't 'much' worse that the 'better characters' in Melee, I wouldn't even class her as a Tier below 'Top' in that game. In PM, there are minor things that happened to everything of course. The thing that hurts Peach in this game is her lack of ability to corner characters as well, but fortunately for her, there aren't many more characters she has to work like that against. Otherwise, she's very well rounded and generally won't get clobbered hard by anything. Nothing from big and sluggish heavy-hitters to floaty-fast projectile spammers really threaten her to a point where she's not working at least like 90% as functional as she can be. Other methods of play and character styles, due to the traits others have that are a little more polarizing here or there, she's more universally functional than almost anyone. Top that off with her being probably the best of this style of play, and throw in some little tweaks to get rid of some pin-point weaknesses to keep her better in this niche than most new-comers, and she's set for life.
It's not that she's notably better than Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/etc, it's just that she doesn't have anything notably 'abuse-able' about her, like at all, where others at least have hints of things in certain areas.
Pika and Luigi it makes sense to question, as they're considered pretty much trash universally in both Melee and PM, unlike Peach... but if you need more explanation on Peach specifically I can go into actual details.
For Pika, I won't elaborate much, but the Up-B changes alone basically open up a dynamic to his game that wasn't even there before. Pika is a new character in PM, and as of 3.0, he can really hardly be related to his Melee-self. He's further from his Melee-self than PM Mario to Melee Mario is, just from the Up-B working the way it does. From on-stage QA1 and complete freedom with off-stage game, specifically about it. Otherwise, there's nothing like significantly improving things like Grab range, Aerials in various ways, and having bigger Stages overall in the game, when talking about a character who is already Tops in speed in the game even outside the QA1 stupid-speed stuff.
Luigi is basically the same idea. He's not comparable in the slightest to his Melee-self, and is further from it than Mario. Even his basic combos aren't carried over, since he has things like U-Air > Down-B > DJ Misfire/Up-B free-crap on every character at any %. His recovery isn't the worst in the game next to Kirby or something like Melee, and his neutral game (the thing everyone thinks is the worst in the game next to Ganon or something) doesn't even work the same, especially with the incorporation of Brawl mechanics like Turn-Around and Crawling when applied to his friction and distance-speed game. Big stages are great for him more than anyone in the game save maybe Falcon, Sonic, Pika, and a few spammers. Not just for freedom of movement, but the polarizing nature of his ability to kill things off hits.
tl;dr Peach functions similarly, with minor buffs, but the way she functions is good for the overall game so nothing hinders her. Pika and Luigi aren't at all comparable to their Melee counter-parts and aside from the very vague and blunt things like "They like N-Airs in different ways" there's no reason to consider them relating to their Melee-selves. Even Mario has more similar-functioning and appearing things to his game, and everyone knows how much 'better' he got.
Hence top > down + left > right is pretty good.
Nguz did a good job of explaining the nuances and benefits of a Curve list, and the way I had it set up. In which case, it's work explaining so people understand, since it's pretty much the most valuable thing regarding format probably in this thread in terms of directly making what everyone is discussing... into something applicable.
MoonlapseOpethian
Smash Journeyman
Does anyone else feel that Lucas deserves a high spot on the tier list? I'd put him at third under the spacies.
This has already been discussed alot.
Reason why he most likely isn't Top 3: SDI
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
I guess you could just hold it on someone CCing until they stop. Then the ending hitbox will probably start a combo anyway.
As for SDI, there's only three moves where that could possibly matter. Dair doesn't require you to land all three hits to be effective and is a meteor, therefore is effective against CC. Nair is very good for just passing through your opponent with an annoying, most likely unpunishable aerial. If they CC or shield, fine, just commence dash dance behind them. If they SDI, just slather more nair on them like you're getting them ready for a nude scene.
As for SDI, there's only three moves where that could possibly matter. Dair doesn't require you to land all three hits to be effective and is a meteor, therefore is effective against CC. Nair is very good for just passing through your opponent with an annoying, most likely unpunishable aerial. If they CC or shield, fine, just commence dash dance behind them. If they SDI, just slather more nair on them like you're getting them ready for a nude scene.
Nair doesn't have much stun before the final hit though. If someone SDI's out of your Nair (especially upwards/through your body), there's a good chance they could fall with an aerial or DJ away.
I dunno if Down B stuns or hits quickly enough to stop CC into shielding. I also can't recall if it floors or not. My gut would say it's akin to Wolf's Shine?
I dunno if Down B stuns or hits quickly enough to stop CC into shielding. I also can't recall if it floors or not. My gut would say it's akin to Wolf's Shine?