Tier List Speculation

[KayB]

close this thread jesus

*sigh*


So where is Jiggs on the tier list and why? What are her good and bad match-ups? What makes her better/worse? How effective is WoP/camping/rest combos now?

 

[SpiderMad]

since we're talking about mk for once in a blue moon I must mention my fav hitbox

So those hurtboxes are sadly too small when they go above him to be hit by anything? Or actually, I think they're just in the far Z-axis then..maybe bombs can hit'em

 

[Plum]

@DMG
I think Charizard is where he should be. He has a fleshed out playstyle and he does that well. He feels more like a complete character than some of the other new characters to me. I'm not sure where I would put him on a tier list, but I think that goes more along the lines of a tier list being rather silly at this point regardless.

@KayB
Again I'll say a tier list is a little silly right now, but Jiggs is fine too. Her life is a little harder than it was in Melee because there are more characters with less gimpable recoveries and there's a trend of more range. She still has the tools needed to get around harder matchups though and that mostly comes down to her superior aerial mobility and the general inability to combo her. She's not flashy but she gets the job done.

Spoiler

let's not turn this into the makeshift social thread that it's been becoming since the closing of the actual social thread... if we had an actual social thread the level of nonsense in this thread would go down

 

[Papa+Stone]

Is there a record of all of the changes from melee to project m? I want to see how some of the characters stack up

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Complaints about Zelda?

You know she has like, no neutral game right? Isn't that bad enough?

 

[Sarix]

Complaints about Zelda?

You know she has like, no neutral game right? Isn't that bad enough?

Nah she has a neutral game. It's just very one dimensional and inflexible.

Edit: On another note can we seriously get rid of the League of Legends mentality of "if I don't know how to handle the character they should be nerfed"? It's seriously unproductive here and very groan worthy every time I see a post like it in here.

Things like MK's Fsmash are valid to bring up though from a design perspective since it's pretty brainless and too safe.

 

[foxygrandpa]

what does anyone think about snake for top tier? I was just curious. His chaingrab literally slaughters every single character. The c4 is poorly designed too, since its inescapable and powerful.

 

[DMG]

Not top tier. High tier. If Snake was great at approaching, we would be screwed. Thankfully, he is a bit awkward in that area and it leads to situations where he possibly gets outcamped or is approaching with a disadvantage

 

[Mono.]

that feel when upsmash x5 to lightning kick from 0% is a true combo with zelda on spacies and will pretty much kill

 

[Jolteon]

Snake has severe problems approaching, his punish game is too focal on grabbing (he has very few low or high % combos, you have to hit-confirm into grabs for his stuff to link), he relies on C4 for kills too much and even though he lives forever you can juggle and edge guard him for days. I think at a stretch Snake can be top 10, but he isn't top tier IMO.

 

[Bakasama]

To everyone talking about Zelda's new design: If you ever saw Cosmo Wright play Zelda back in melee, he made that **** work. Just spamming forward air and back air with good spacing and a few wavedash jukes for good measure and basically she can out-wait anyone. The length of those moves makes them so safe so long as you're smart with your movement and 'on' for all your punishes. It's about as frustrating as playing Jiggs with her wall. However, this was her only game back in melee. Now that she has more tricks, honestly it /feels/ OP. But that just makes everyone else have to actually step their game up with their characters to the highest possible level. I mean, at Pound V5, M2K basically just out-waited Zhime and managed to make him, the Zelda player, feel impatient. If Zelda forces you to play defense, play that waiting game. An approach will come eventually, just punish that instead of getting frustrated and getting punished for your approach. I feel like anyone who argues that VSing Zelda is like playing a different game doesn't have enough experience playing against players who play super-safe and only take guaranteed opportunities to attack. They alter the speed of the game massively, and slow it down a helluva lot, and it can be frustrating, but that's their strategy, and if it frustrates you, even if you 'win', they're winning during the match by forcing you to feel that way. I'm surprised the opinions of these games are so heavy when it's best to just become a machine when you're playing.

Just based on skill-ceiling sake, are people considering Lucario for S-tier? Assuming you're a machine and your inputs are perfect, shouldn't his ability to cancel make him inherently the best character, or atleast tied with melee Fox? Just introducing cancels should raise that skill ceiling through the roof.

 

[Ariyo]

stuff

I dunno man. Falcon won Sudden Death and placed third at Whobo. It wasn't free either.

 

[DMG]

The cancel stuff should only make him top tier if it's 100% confirmed into other meaningful stuff throughout the entire attempted string. The amount of SDI people can toss it, along with DI during a combo, practically renders that argument moot. He can do some cool stuff, but 0-death theorycraft etc will not happen. It's not to say that he's incapable of legit comboing or cancel chaining, but it has practical limits.

 

[Fortress]

what does anyone think about snake for top tier? I was just curious. His chaingrab literally slaughters every single character. The c4 is poorly designed too, since its inescapable and powerful.

If Snake could properly respond to pressure, or had more options once caught in the air by an opponent, then I'm sure he'd be in the top six. Like others have said, he's weak enough in some regards to keep him where he is, which is just fine.

Snake has severe problems approaching, his punish game is too focal on grabbing (he has very few low or high % combos, you have to hit-confirm into grabs for his stuff to link), he relies on C4 for kills too much and even though he lives forever

Do you still have nightmares about that first round versus Prof Pro during LAC6..? Mind you, I watched that game a bunch to see what I could transfer from your Toon Link to my Link, but, Snake is scary :/

 

[Sarix]

It would be a nightmare if Snake could approach. He definitely has the tools to be a high tier and obnoxious amount of survivability but nothing incredibly strong enough to warrant top tier. His extremely limited approach makes match ups against zoners a very unenjoyable experience for him unless he can outzone them.

 

[Jolteon]

If Snake could properly respond to pressure, or had more options once caught in the air by an opponent, then I'm sure he'd be in the top six. Like others have said, he's weak enough in some regards to keep him where he is, which is just fine.


Do you still have nightmares about that first round versus Prof Pro during LAC6..? Mind you, I watched that game a bunch to see what I could transfer from your Toon Link to my Link, but, Snake is scary :/

Not really, that's just what happens when you play poorly and make bad decisions. I can take him out if I play well.

 

[Fortress]

Not really, that's just what happens when you play poorly and make bad decisions. I can take him out if I play well.

Eh, it was a good match all around, and I picked up a few things from watching the both of you.

His extremely limited approach makes match ups against zoners a very unenjoyable experience for him unless he can outzone them.

My roommate has him as a secondary to Ganondorf, and hates Link's 'rang. I'm glad that Snake has trouble both in approaching and with off-stage play. He's incredibly powerful in his own right, and has some killer finishers, but he suffers enough where it counts.

 

[Deleted member]

final post on this

does a move have to be the best in the game to be poorly designed? i don't think the move is "too good" so much as it is poorly designed in that the move itself removes interaction. and yes, i did test how to deal with the move quite a bit.

edit: i'm not a big fan of nayru's love either.

 

[Juushichi]

that feel when upsmash x5 to lightning kick from 0% is a true combo with zelda on spacies and will pretty much kill

That feel when usmash x5 into LK from 0% usually has to start from a grab which Zelda should be getting all the time, right?

...Right?

It's not like she loses to Fox left-right a bunch right? (Falco is probably a diff case and is easier to deal with speaking from experience)

 

[DMG]

Zelda vs Falco may legit be an even MU, which is terrifying and awesome at the same time

 

[Jolteon]

Eh, it was a good match all around, and I picked up a few things from watching the both of you.



My roommate has him as a secondary to Ganondorf, and hates Link's 'rang. I'm glad that Snake has trouble both in approaching and with off-stage play. He's incredibly powerful in his own right, and has some killer finishers, but he suffers enough where it counts.

Yeah, I'm not saying it was a bad set. But idk, like it doesn't really bother me that it happened.

 

[Juushichi]

Zelda vs Falco may legit be an even MU, which is terrifying and awesome at the same time

Hm... I still think that Falco's onstage presence is a little too strong for Zelda to deal with for the most part... but any hit should probably be death or close to it. Falco literally spawns at kill %s vs Zelda.

55-45 Falco prob.

 

[Zwarm]

Coming from an ex-Zelda main, I still prefer using Zelda over Squirtle in some MUs, Falco, Wolf, and MK come to mind.

She doesn't have much of a neutral game, but she has ways to force approaches and bait reactions and punish accordingly. If she wasn't so slow, she would probably be top 5 or close to it imo

She's a defensive character in a game of characters who benefit from offense, it's a nice character archetype to have

 

[DrinkingFood]

Hm... I still think that Falco's onstage presence is a little too strong for Zelda to deal with for the most part... but any hit should probably be death or close to it. Falco literally spawns at kill %s vs Zelda.

55-45 Falco prob.

Anybody got that vid of some zelda vs M2K's Falco? Nayru's love was like, created to deal with lasers.

 

[SpiderMad]

Anybody got that vid of some zelda vs M2K's Falco? Nayru's love was like, created to deal with lasers.

Salem

 

[Mono.]

usually has to start from a grab

it doesn't

just catch them in an upsmash and go to town

 

[Scythe]

you really aren't going to be catching good spacies with upsmash at 0 lol

 

[Mono.]

i didn't say anything about how well or not it'll work in a match rather how hilarious it is that I can do this

 

[DrinkingFood]

Salem

Oh right, Winter Brawl 7 GFs. That's such an awkward set(s) to watch. But Nayru's love really looks like it makes falco have to think differently about his lasers.

 

[Nausicaa]

Edit^
Thinking about projectile use is just something that everyone could probably use more of in general. From both ends of either using them more, less, directly, indirectly, etc. It's probably the #1 thing that's ever discussed in PP's Falco thread since 2010, probably the #1 thing that causes the difference between won and lost matches for most Falco's in very-high level play, and probably the #1 thing that holds people developing with their character back from really intuitively playing their character dynamically rather than through a fortress of experience-based-gained habits.

Why are people complaining about things like Naryu's Love and Whirling Fortress? Without those, characters like that would be... nearly dysfunctional.

This stuff again.
Those gimmicky moves are fine since they don't dictact literally everything in a match. It's not Sonic 2.5 Down-B, and it's not Falco Lasers on crack.
They're not free-to-spam abuse-able, and a habit of overly acting on them is abuse-able in itself. If Falco's lasers have a dynamic to them that stems from overuse to a point where it hurts Falco, and lasers are a pace-controlling tool in terms of offense/limiting the options of opponents, there's not reason moves with dynamics to them in terms of overuse/abuse in a pace-controlling manner regarding defense/making up for limited options.

close this thread jesus

I'm on break.
L
O
L

Snake has to be aggressively-passive, like Peach, and this will take a lot of time to flush out. He has enough dynamics to make it work, given how hard his punishment game actually is, though he could easily fall on the sadface-side as much as the pwnface-side of the game. Whatever gimmick play is left has to be abused for being overused, so it can be seen whether the character can be aggressively-passive when neither party is falling for stupid things anymore.

Falco vs Zelda could be scary, but this so... cheesy, that it's not even worth discussing.

 

[Denti]

Link has no follow-ups on Ivy, especially an Ivy who SDI's. What exactly is he camping ivy with? Link is slower than Ivy, he doesn't have the speed to keep ivy from getting into mid-range. Link is a mid-range character, but so is Ivy and Ivy excels at mid-range more than pretty much any other character. Link is basically playing brawl against Ivy *hit -> reset to neutral -> repeat* while Ivy has viable pressure and combo options against link(really..really good combo options that denti probably doesn't utilize like footstool stuff) as well as being able to edgeguard Link better than most characters.

I utilize every option at once then enter super mode.

 

[Denti]

I name searched into this thread. I was about to put together a tier list. Then I realized it is the internet. GOOD DAY GENTALMEN.

 

[Vashimus]

So......How bout that angel Pit, guys? Top 10 material?

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH I-NO?

 

[Nguz95]

Easily. Pit is so good. He is super solid all around. Even with the usmash nerf he's still at least top 10.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Question: why is Diddy so low? Haven't played yet, but from what I heard most said he's just as good as in Brawl. So why everyone ranking him so low?

 

[KayB]

Question: why is Diddy so low? Haven't played yet, but from what I heard most said he's just as good as in Brawl. So why everyone ranking him so low?

Because only a few select people really know how good he is, and there hasn't been a good Diddy rep to prove their claims.

Tourney results really sway how people feel about tiers. For example, there was a lot of speculation as to whether or not Mario was Top tier or not. While many argued that he was, the strongest counter argument was the fact that he didn't show any prominent tourney results until BH3. Conversely, even though many claimed that the Bowser MU was totally manageable and that he was probably a high-mid tier, no one questioned his top/high tier placement for a long time because for a while he was the character that won the most tournaments.

 

[DMG]

Disappointing list is disappointing. Awestin isn't on it? Cmon. Nobody would know the freakin Ness MU.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

So, since 3.0 will invalidate 2.6 soon, a final sort of Tier List for 2.6 would be cool, I might even work on one myself. It'd be cool to look to them as 3.0 progresses. Of course, it'll be hard to make a tier list when so much is unknown, but 2.6 doesn't really have any time left in it ANYWAY.

 

[Friesnchip]

So, since 3.0 will invalidate 2.6 soon, a final sort of Tier List for 2.6 would be cool, I might even work on one myself. It'd be cool to look to them as 3.0 progresses. Of course, it'll be hard to make a tier list when so much is unknown, but 2.6 doesn't really have any time left in it ANYWAY.

There was a list going recently in one of the General Discussion threads, I'll look around a bit and see if I can find it again.

 

[Friesnchip]

Yeah, page 148 of this thread. Here is Nguz95's tier list:

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Sheik
5. Wolf
6. Lucas
7. Mario
8. Snake

A Tier
9. Marth
10. Ivysaur
11. Peach
12. Metaknight
13. Pit
14. Jigglypuff
15. Donkey Kong
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Bowser
18. Ike
19. Charizard
20. Diddy Kong

B Tier
21. Lucario
22. Link
23. Captain Falcon
24. Ness
25. ROB
26. Mr. Game and Watch
27. Sonic
28. Toon Link
29. Zelda
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Deedeedee

And here is a partial list to counter Nguz95 by DMG:

I disagree. Only characters in that grouping that I would say he "wrecks" (as in 6:4 or better MU in his favor), would be ROB/TL/D3. Most of those characters have decent MU's with Falcon: Buffed Ness, Zelda, Link, and G^W are pretty respectable choices vs Falcon now. Squirtle is harder than you probably think as well (I've played Bwett in that MU).

I'm leaning away from maining Falcon in PM, but you can take it from me. A large majority of those MU's listed in his B/C tier are not free wins for Falcon. If they were, I would be playing him every game instead of considering someone like Marth who *legit* bodies most of those characters.

For a rough idea, I'll briefly post what I roughly think the MU is for most the characters (sorry Luigi and Pika people, nobody plays dem characters or I'm too busy being Martha)

B Tier
21. Lucario - Evenish. Possibly 5 points either character's favor
22. Link - Maybe 55:45 Falcon? I predominantly go Fox cause that feels freeish
23. Captain Falcon - Knee
24. Ness - Slightly Falcon's Favor
25. ROB - Probably close to 6:4, some stages closer to even for ROB
26. Mr. Game and Watch - maybe even, Dakpo strikes fear into the hearts of men
27. Sonic - 5:5 to 55:45 for Falcon, Sethlon would probably agree with that
28. Toon Link - 55:45 to 6:4 for Falcon
29. Zelda - 5:5
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle - Teeny advantage Falcon
33. Ganondorf - 55:45ish
34. King D3 - 6:4ish, can be close to even depending on stage