Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

so we make it an incredibly boring fsmash that functions like every other fsmash?

yes, it's called normalization. you set a standard that all of the characters play to in a general way and deviate from there to establish a set of rules that the game plays by while still keeping it interesting. i still think MK is fairly normalized, but his fsmash is frankly pretty stupid. it's just way too safe as long as you're not a total idiot about it.

like fox's fsmash might be stupid but if he starts charging it in no-man's land, you can simply wait for the move to end and punish him with a grab or something. if MK walks away from you and starts charging fsmash, you have 2 options: 1. have a very fast dash speed (MK's dash speed or better) or you throw a projectile. jumping over it and hitting him from above doesn't work, running up and blocking it doesn't work, running up and crouching it doesn't work, and trying to outrange it doesn't work outside of a few specific characters. when characters like peach have to punish a charged smash by throwing a turnip because no other option is available, that should send up red flags in terms of design. moves performed without respect to positioning are supposed to be punishable by opponents who put themselves in some kind of position to negotiate them.

 

[Fortress]

yes, it's called normalization. you set a standard that all of the characters play to in a general way and deviate from there to establish a set of rules that the game plays by while still keeping it interesting.put themselves in some kind of position to negotiate them.

What? But, I like how Link's F-smash functions differently from Mario's F-Smash, which serves a different purpose than Sheik's F-Smash, and so on.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah, and small deviations like that are fun and unique. MK's fsmash is certainly unique, it's just horribly designed when you're trying to meaningfully interact with it in a way that is typical to smash. and some characters just don't interact with it at all. that's bad.

 

[Oracle]

thank you mow I didn't really feel like explaining lol

 

[Fortress]

I could (and have) lodge the same complaint against Zelda's neutral special, and Wolf's forward smash, and get nowhere. I think it's fine that everybody's smashes serve different roles character-to-character. I'm glad the game isn't simple to the point where I could go from Link to Ness and play mostly the same in terms of normals.

 

[JOE!]

moves performed without respect to positioning are supposed to be punishable by opponents who put themselves in some kind of position to negotiate them.

 

[Papa+Stone]

fun overpowered moves add variety and interesting strategies and anti-metas to character match ups. I havent complained about a single character ever except for sonic, which is half him being actually broken(back in 2.5 although he was overly nerfed) and half bias against sonic as a series which is terrible. Ive learned that in melee I improved when I stopped crying about the top tiers. Now that ive learned it(on my own through experimenting) marth is now my favorite matchup

 

[Archangel]

alright...I see I've got this way off topic. I got another tier list I'm working on that I'm going to put out later. Anyone else wish to update their speculation?

 

[Scythe]

I could (and have) lodge the same complaint against Zelda's neutral special, and Wolf's forward smash, and get nowhere. I think it's fine that everybody's smashes serve different roles character-to-character. I'm glad the game isn't simple to the point where I could go from Link to Ness and play mostly the same in terms of normals.

these moves have lag lol

 

[Archangel]

more specifically, anyone want to update their opinion on Zelda?

 

[Fortress]

No. Nayru's Love can eat a lovey ****.

We're mature and reasonable people who can talk about how we love Zelda, right?

 

[Deleted member]

i think she's absurd. playing against zelda is like playing a different game. in a bad way.

 

[Fortress]

I love that she's viable, and PM:BR did a great job making her playable, but... ****. **** that neutral special.

 

[Zerudahime]

lol nayrus love is not difficult to deal with at all.
If you play against her, you know when to expect it and how to get around it.
zelda forces approaches and traps.
same game, different strategy.

 

[DMG]

She's polarizing defensively and it's annoying, but I thank the lord everyday that she isn't flopping around like Ivysaur. At least Ivysaur *might* cross you up on shield and pretend to have some big balls. If you're not a FF character, who will die to Uthrow CG into the shameful kick of doom, Zelda could care less about approaching you.

 

[Fortress]

lol nayrus love is not difficult to deal with at all.
If you play against her, you know when to expect it and how to get around it.
zelda forces approaches and traps.
same game, different strategy.

Wait, Zelda mains are a thing?

 

[Zerudahime]

yes, most definitely.
good ones are far and few between, but there were at least 7 or 8 zeldas at pound that I took note of.

 

[DMG]

Good Zelda:

Stop using so much damn Din's Fire
Good reaction time to stuff approaches
Be that jackass who pivot Utilts someone coming in
If you run into trouble, mash B and it will probably work out
Stop jumping, press buttons on ground


...


(It takes more than that to be a good Zelda. Maybe)

Props to people that decided to main her. I don't see the allure of that character in a Melee setting honestly.

 

[Yung Mei]

ivysaur is easy

zelda is too difficult for me, so i just give up when playing against her

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Are we really complaining about Zelda now?

 

[Yung Mei]

ive always complained about zelda, shes my most difficult matchup, and she has been since 2.0

i dont ****in know about everyone else tho lmao

 

[DMG]

Zelda's a Brick Wall

Ivysaur is like a Police Riot Shield

Zelda made a deal with the Devil

Ivysaur is actually the Devil, which is why Zelda has lesser "gg drop your controller" powers in comparison

Edit: THIS IS PROJECT M, THE GAME WHERE WE GET TO COMPLAIN ABOUT ANYTHING AT ANYTIME! I thought you knew this already...

Spoiler

But if you nerf or tweak my Space Animals, prepare for WAR

 

[Scythe]

auto cancel neutral b is pretty good lol, but all those teleport shenanigans zhime was doing prolly shouldn't have been working lol

 

[I Dair You]

Anyone who says Zelda is not fun has never set up a Din's at the top of the stage and collided your opponent into it with an upthrow.

 

[Fortress]

Keep Calm and Neutral B?

 

[DMG]

Anyone who says Zelda is not fun has never set up a Din's at the top of the stage and collided your opponent into it with an upthrow.

Still not fun

 

[Zerudahime]

Uhg thats right.
shino-stalling an entire match.....now THAT's fun.

 

[Oracle]

Zelda is pretty good but not obnoxiously broken or stupid. All of her stuff has good answers but she has a diverse toolkit, so its a matter of figuring out what she wants to do. One of my fav character designs

 

[Juushichi]

It doesn't work if you pay attention and know what's up. (Zelda teleport)

Calvo you have shamed me.

GnW vs Zelda is not hard.

 

[JOE!]

I just don't get why her Fair/Bair are more or less the same move.. are they actually different in properties?

 

[trash?]

the more I try to understand this game the more I wonder if anyone actually quite understands how to play it

if y'all seriously can't punish something within twenty frames that is 100% your fault, and nobody else's

 

[Solharath]

I hate fighting Zelda. I am a bit nonplussed that her lighting kick is just... well, exactly what it is, I find them both to be a bit depressingly quick and strong, like a certain USmash. That said, it's not her neutral B that should be changed. It frustrates me to no end but it is a beautiful move and I love what the PMBR has done to and with it.

I'm hovering ever so slowly to the 'stop nerfing characters' camp, even though I still have a few opinions on some characters that I've thus far refused to let go of. Especially from characters and moves that are undeserving of such things, like calling for a nerf on Zelda's Neutral B. Or MK's FSmash for that matter.

 

[Zerudahime]

bair and fair are different moves in terms of damage/kb and speed.

 

[trash?]

final post on this
I'm going to have to repeat this a million times because apparently there's no other reasonable argument here

his fsmash is frankly pretty stupid. it's just way too safe as long as you're not a total idiot about it.

so here's the mindset: here's a move that has a slight deviation from the norm, and is different in its situations
by being smart about how to use it and cover its weaknesses, it can be a good move (not even closest to the GREATEST move, in no way overbearing if you understand how it works, and lmao if you sincerely believe that meta knights should use it constantly compared to a good aerial approach)
thus, it is evil and overpowered and nerfs forever

nothing even close to any kind of understanding of "well, alright, how would I go about dealing with this move", just giving up from the getgo, because someone who understood the character used it cleverly, and that just won't do

that is an incredibly gross mindset

 

[DMG]

Good aerial approach? MK probably shouldn't be doing that.

 

[trash?]

"you shouldn't aerial approach with someone designed to aerial approach"

I'm being punk'd aren't I

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Wait something's good?

Better nerf it

What like recoveries, oh wait I forgot they're fine.

 

[DMG]

"you shouldn't aerial approach with someone designed to aerial approach"

I'm being punk'd aren't I

No, you aren't. MK as a character is clearly meant to stay grounded 80% of the time, and use his GREAT ground mobility and borderline ******** tech chases from Dthrow, to force decisions and reactions first. When you jump with a character, it's a bit crazy to think of how many options you lose because of it. You lose the ability to do any grounded attacks, can't shield, can't grab, and can't do repositioning with DD (not to mention doing any action immediately out of dashes and DD's). If you want to forgo all of this, to fly around with Fairs, Nairs, and Angled Dairs, be my guest. It's probably not as strong as staying on the ground though.

It shouldn't matter what you think the character was intented to do. You use what works. MK on the ground has been accurately been described as a Sheik/Fox/Falcon Hybrid offspring from Hell. If Fairing around is what works for you, keep using it I guess, but in all honesty you could be swapping a lot of those aerial approaches with smarter and stronger tactical choices from the ground. Use his strong ground game to transition into whatever is appropriate at the time. Don't just start off flying at people, that's madness!

 

[trash?]

SHFFL aerial approaches are about half his game actually, which you could tell from... ever playing MK

this thread has confirmed my suspicions that only MK mains know how MK works

 

[DMG]

Ok, lemme know how Fairs and Nairs go when you could be tech chasing someone to death instead with Dthrow