Tier List Speculation

[Vashimus]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.....

The PMBR read these threads, you know!

 

[Strong Badam]

Wait something's good?
Better nerf it

 

[Fortress]

Wait something's good?
Better nerf it

I hate liking that comment since I harbor that feeling against Wolf.

 

[JOE!]

Wait something's good?
Better nerf it

 

[Mono.]

i actually wonder if falcon, probably the most loved character in melee, would become hated because PMBR buffed him to be the best in 3.0

 

[SpiderMad]

As long as they're combo-able

 

[Nausicaa]

Meta Knight's F-Smash is literally the only problem with Project: M.

 

[Deleted member]

mk's fsmash is absurd lol

 

[Scythe]

at least it has some startup on it otherwise it would be broke. It could use some ending lag tho

 

[Solharath]

Meta Knight's F-Smash is literally the only problem with Project: M.

At least I saw what you did there.

 

[trash?]

"fsmash should have some ending lag tho"

but then it loses all use as a smash that's supposed to have bad startup, but be safe if whiffed. that's its major purpose

at best, it'd be better to add more to the starting frames

 

[Fortress]

At least I saw what you did there.

Strong Bad is rolling in his grave. Wait...

 

[Deleted member]

"fsmash should have some ending lag tho"

but then it loses all use as a smash that's supposed to have bad startup, but be safe if whiffed. that's its major purpose

at best, it'd be better to add more to the starting frames

it's ranged, disjointed, hits above his head, can't be crouched, can't be punished OOS, and kills at 70%. there's absolutely no incentive to challenge the startup because it feels like a huge coinflip on whether you'll get him or not and you get molested if you're off the slightest bit.

just give the move some lag.

 

[Fortress]

Just give it a fifty-fifty chance of dealing ninety damage to MK himself. Like G&W's flag, but taking more balls to do.

 

[DMG]

Give MK a sword

crap

 

[trash?]

"it's ranged"

lmaooooo do you even know MK's ranges, it's tiny compared to ftilts or instant dimensional cape attacks

the fact that this is the one thing ppl complain about says wonders about how little people actually know of MK

 

[Fortress]

Wait, who's fighting who, I'm lost.

 

[DMG]

Actually, it's a pretty legit complaint if you scratch deeper than the surface. MK has a good dash and DD overall. What can that lead to? Pivot Fsmash out of dashing. Having that kind of precise control over your spacing, along with the regular mixup game of approaching or backing up, could mask or nullify a lot of the startup weakness.

 

[trash?]

so we make it an incredibly boring fsmash that functions like every other useless fsmash?

at worst, add some more startup. it SHOULD be safe on whiff, that's its ENTIRE PURPOSE, if it wasn't then there'd be no reason not to punish with dimensional cape, because then you'd at least have some god damn range

 

[CORY]

Give MK a sword

crap

give mk's sword...

A SWORD!

genius, balanced and done.

 

[Archangel]

All I'm saying is even without Practicing in PM I still managed to beat falco's pretty easily. In fact I didn't drop a game to a falco in melee or PM. Not in tournament, friendlies, or a MM. I dropped 5 games total to fox. 2 of them were to M2K in PM. the other 3 games I dropped were in Melee and I won about 17 games vs fox.

So...at least for me spacies really aren't the problem. Or it's just that I'm so use to the dumb **** that I'm numb to it. But I'm telling you I just...there is something weird with that Fsmash. It goes into invisible land and then it hits me...does anyone have the hitbox/frames in gif form for MK's fsmash? I need to get a look at it because it's like...wtf!

anyways after sleeping on it I realize I'm less salty about losing. I didn't train to win so I didn't deserve to win it's as simple as that. Even in the start of game 2 when I realized I could run around and shoot arrows down at MK and the little ******* couldn't hit me I decided to abandon it in large part do to Ego. I was like...I could cheap him out but I can beat MK in the head to head. It was a mistake that cost me in the end. Still I think it was an interesting set. I need to rewatch it. Felt like we were both playing noobish and doing noob rolls alot but JCs recorded it so I'll get to see it again.

 

[trash?]

since we're talking about mk for once in a blue moon I must mention my fav hitbox

such beauty in that janky taunt

E:

But I'm telling you I just...there is something weird with that Fsmash. It goes into invisible land and then it hits me...does anyone have the hitbox/frames in gif form for MK's fsmash? I need to get a look at it because it's like...wtf!

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-hitboxes-and-frame-data.338971/

20 frames of startup, abt 14 frames of end lag, frame data doesn't show anything special

 

[KayB]

So what I'm gathering is that F-smash is safe, has a lot of range, and kills at low percents?


I'm going to test that out and spam f-smash a lot.

 

[trash?]

for context, take a look at oak's MK dimensional cape guide

It is crucial to understand the three components of the Dimensional Cape attack:

• The distance MK moves is represented by the blue line
• The distance MK shifts is represented by the yellow line
• The attack’s range is represented by the red line
  

The shiny spark-like animation shows where MK stopped moving and began to shift!

also note: at its earliest, DC can be cancelled into an attack at frame 7, and the shift stays the same.

fsmash's range, by comparison, is terrible

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Yeah, dimensional cape is the better kill move at this point. It's a hell of a lot cooler looking too, especially as a aerial finish.

 

[dettadeus]

I thought I brought all this MK stuff up like... August?

There's literally no better kill move for MK than instant DC. On floaties and people who DI badly, it combos out of Dthrow at kill percents (70-90), and if they DI correctly they're either in a techchase situation against one of the fastest characters in the game or they're offstage against one of the best edgeguarders in the game. Without any shift, it has basically the same range as Fsmash with barely less power, and when you include the shift and space properly, it pretty much has more range than any non-projectile attack in the game. Nair is a close second to IDC and Grounded Shuttle Loop a far third (on people who die vertically, at least). Dsmash is a runnerup but is more situational and susceptible to good DI than any of the moves listed before it. Bair isn't worth the startup when you can turnaround IDC in place and get the same result, or DJ Nair if you're offstage.

And why people are complaining about MK when there are still better characters who do similar stuff better is beyond me. If you don't like him, use projectiles since he can't clank with non-transcendent projectiles with anything but Dash Attack or Glide Attack.

Also please tell me people know his Dash Attack clanks with aerials. This isn't news to anyone, right?

 

[DMG]

Some of us played Brawl, ya know. Where these properties on his moves were well known.

 

[dettadeus]

Idk, there's a lot of people who seem to know absolutely nothing about MK because PM was their first game or they skipped Brawl, so I was just making sure people knew.

 

[standardtoaster]

We know about dash attack clanking with aerials. MK's clanking is glitched in brawl as it clanks with everything including aerials. MK's dash attack in PM is the only move he has that's set to clank with anything because of this.

 

[Nausicaa]

Let's get back on topic, yeah?
You know what's REALLY a broken Smash attack?
Fox's Up-Smash.

Tier List
Fox U-Smash
MK F-Smash

Lower-End Tier
Dedede
Everyone is sleeping on everyone everywhere everything everyone everytime everyway.

Bottom Tier
Squirtle
Ganon

 

[dettadeus]

I wasn't reporting it as a bug, I was mentioning it as a method of approach/antiapproach with MK. Having a move that lurches you forward through SH Aerials is pretty useful.

 

[Oracle]

the point is not that fsmash is too good or whatever; its that the move is essentially just safe to throw out 100% of the time as long as you have enough time and space for the startup (which is not much). Some characters like lucas actually can't punish or beat it period, and have to just wait until the move is over to reset. Dimensional cape instant strike thingy is really strong, but also has a ton of cooldown and requires you to know where your opponent is before hand.

 

[trash?]

"the move is essentially just safe to throw out 100% of the time as long as you have enough time and space for the startup"

so by using the move correctly, you'll be using the move correctly

thanks for the tip

 

[Fortress]

"the move is essentially just safe to throw out 100% of the time as long as you have enough time and space for the startup"

so by using the move correctly, you'll be using the move correctly

thanks for the tip

I was going to say something along the lines of "the move is safe when you use it correctly", but, hey. Beat me to the, erm, punch as it were.

 

[Archangel]

I dont want to say that the fsmash is the reason I lost. or make it sound that way at all. I lost because I played bad. I lost because I stopped playing PM after they announced Roy...and then entered singles . I lost because I rolled to much, teched in a predictable manner, and failed to use the right tactics, and ultimately failed to adapt.

With that said, the Fsmash is just...such a surprisingly powerful move....i need to see the gif of it.

 

[Nausicaa]

Just go play MK a bit, and ENJOY!!!
Aside from Ike's D-Smash, what other move in the game sends in that Doc-D-Tilt type of trajectory? (not ZSS Side-B style, but like... reverse hit-box style naturally)

Just wait until you get hit by Oli's new F-Smash, it's gonna be all like WAT!??!

Luigi for amazing tier.

 

[JOE!]

People complain about MK's Fsmash when there are clearly dumber moves... I mean what the hell is with the hitbox on Jigg's Bair? If the BR introduced new moves like that (or other examples from melee...), people would be up in arms. But if it's on a vet it's all cool.

 

[Archangel]

People complain about MK's Fsmash when there are clearly dumber moves... I mean what the hell is with the hitbox on Jigg's Bair? If the BR introduced new moves like that (or other examples from melee...), people would be up in arms. But if it's on a vet it's all cool.

I'm not calling it dumb because it's good. I'm calling it dumb because it's unfamiliar in every level. I see it but I don't see it. The hitbox/frames/gifs for every move in melee has been out for years now. Even in brawl...but for PM some animations are notorious for not matching moves and MK's Fsmash seems to be one of them. Even in friendlies with another MK I found it near impossible to hit him before his fsmash.

It reminds me of when I thought Marth was dumb because he could dodge moves by dashing.

 

[Nguz95]

As interesting as this conversation is, I don't think it has much to do with Tier List Speculation. How about we discuss Metaknight's place on the Tier List instead of debating the safeness of one of his moves? I personally think MK is really good, but his recovery is a bit limited. That flaw, however, is not enough to keep him from being a very high tier character.

 

[DMG]

If MK grabs, he wins. Simple character 8/10 would C-stick