Tier List Speculation

[Plum]

I don't think there's any way Sonic could be that bad without intentionally making him garbage.
He's too fast to not be at least decent. Falcon's been riding the same gravy train of being super fast for years.

I feel like if people are actually saying Sonic is that bad it's largely an overreaction.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

To me, Dedede feels very much like playing a Melee character, and that's the charm I see in him. He really doesn't have some characters' guaranteed combos or setups, each sick combo pulled off makes you feel great, and feels genuinely earned. One could say some characters in PM do feel quite guided in their design. In contrast to that I think Dedede's "natural-born/Sakurai happy-accident" feel gives him a bit of a learning curve. I'm confident this is the reason why most people underestimate him. Until his metagame and best play-styles become more common knowledge, I think people will continue to mislabel him as bottom tier. Anyone who has played someone like Fly, though, knows Dedede is not a bad character in PM. Personally I think he's pretty darn balanced, and I hope he doesn't change much.

 

[Archangel]

There's a weird irony about Sonic being relegated to bottom next to low mobility characters. In a game based on Melee, it just sounds horribly wrong.

I wish it was. unfortunately Sonic has been reduced to Pichu in lightning melee.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To me, Dedede feels very much like playing a Melee character, and that's the charm I see in him. He really doesn't have some characters' guaranteed combos or setups, each sick combo pulled off makes you feel great, and feels genuinely earned. One could say some characters in PM do feel quite guided in their design. In contrast to that I think Dedede's "natural-born/Sakurai happy-accident" feel gives him a bit of a learning curve. I'm confident this is the reason why most people underestimate him. Until his metagame and best play-styles become more common knowledge, I think people will continue to mislabel him as bottom tier. Anyone who has played someone like Fly, though, knows Dedede is not a bad character in PM. Personally I think he's pretty darn balanced, and I hope he doesn't change much.

I...guess...

I was definitely under the impression that he carried the feeling of a Brawl character more than anyone else in the cast. He plays largely like he does in Brawl, minus the chaingrab (which was a non-issue against characters who couldn't be chaingrabbed in the first place. Lots of pokes and a need to control the space immediately around him. People can run circles around him, but when you get in his face, there's a lot to make you feel uncomfortable.

The lack of general mobility also lends itself to more of a Brawl feel than Melee--He struggles to move around in a game where everyone is dashdance camping and shooting crazy-good projectiles.

 

[deadjames]

Pikachu is actually quite amazing. Not top 10 by any stretch but I don't think Pikachu is bottom 5 worthy at all. Pikachu just isn't played alot because...well the character isn't any easier to play in PM then it is in Melee. You have to know how to use Pikachu in order to benefit from the buffs pika has obtained. Same could be said about luigi actually.

As someone who plays both of those characters I can say that Luigi's skill floor is not nearly as high as Pikachu's as long as you can wavedash and jab cancel proficiently it's not hard to excel with Luigi.

Edit: Oh yeah and mash the B button like a madman, any good Luigi would need to be able to that too.

 

[Plum]

I want DDD to be super grapple mode.
Dude has a gahlike grab (though not as gahlike as it was in Brawl ), and a command grab.
Give that dude nasty throws but make him work for it with DI traps, tech chases, and etc. and make inhale worth a damn outside of cheese suicides to erase a bad stock. DDD's fat ass would look weird going all combo stylee on you, but he feels like a natural fit for a character that would look to sort of vortex you (in a Smash sense).

/notlikewhatithinkmeansanythingbutyolo

 

[Phaiyte]

There aren't many notable Fox players that enter tournaments either.

Considering how many tournament players there are that play to win with money on the line, you'd think they'd jump on the Fox ball if they want to win so bad if he was actually that good. If someone goes to tournaments with those intentions and ****ing off with characters that are "obviously" inferior, then they're either really ballsy or really stupid.

I want DDD to be super grapple mode.
Dude has a gahlike grab (though not as gahlike as it was in Brawl ), and a command grab.
Give that dude nasty throws but make him work for it with DI traps, tech chases, and etc. and make inhale worth a damn outside of cheese suicides to erase a bad stock. DDD's fat *** would look weird going all combo stylee on you, but he feels like a natural fit for a character that would look to sort of vortex you (in a Smash sense).


/notlikewhatithinkmeansanythingbutyolo

Straight up grapple characters in other games perform combos just as good as anyone else, and they're usually actually more damaging than their grapples are when you're actually good enough with those characters, then those grabs mostly become round enders from reading a bad tech. But D3's grab game is really probably already one of the best in the game anyway.

 

[Ariyo]

I wish it was. unfortunately Sonic has been reduced to Pichu in lightning melee.

This is accurate.

 

[DMG]

Considering how many tournament players there are that play to win with money on the line, you'd think they'd jump on the Fox ball if they want to win so bad if he was actually that good. If someone goes to tournaments with those intentions and ****ing off with characters that are "obviously" inferior, then they're either really ballsy or really stupid

Plenty of people don't play MK or IC's in Brawl. Doesn't change that they've been killing the community since '09

 

[Nguz95]

Ok. Now that things have quieted down a little bit, I'm going to re-post this and see if I can get some feedback
S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Sheik
5. Wolf
6. Lucas
7. Mario
8. Snake

A Tier
9. Marth
10. Ivysaur
11. Peach
12. Metaknight
13. Pit
14. Jigglypuff
15. Donkey Kong
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Bowser
18. Ike
19. Charizard
20. Diddy Kong

B Tier
21. Lucario
22. Link
23. Captain Falcon
24. Ness
25. ROB
26. Mr. Game and Watch
27. Sonic
28. Toon Link
29. Zelda
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Deedeedee

C Tier is intentionally small because I think these characters lack certain abilities that make the neutral game a serious chore. I tried to order this list based off three factors: neutral game, recovery, and combo strength (ranked in order of importance). The only exception to this rule is Bowser, who I believe is very weak in the neutral game, but has the tools to effectively neutralize other character's approach options. If I were to weight the importance of each attribute, I think the ratio would be around 45% neutral game, 32% recovery, and 23% combo strength. Some characters, like Mario, lack slightly in the neutral game, but their recovery and combo strength are so strong that they bring up his composite. Very few characters (maybe even no characters) have really good neutral games but poor recoveries and combos.

 

[Plum]

Speaking of neutral game, I feel like Diddy is very underrated in that regard.
Bananas don't warp the neutral as much as they do in Brawl, but I feel like his options when bananas are present are still short of incredible (incredible being laser levels).
I've been trying to play him more often and I find myself constantly impressed at the pressure he's capable of exerting when he has bananas. Even without bananas I find Diddy to be similar to Mario in certain regards, where its at the very least manageable against some of the "better" characters.

 

[Rizner]

Ok. Now that thinks have quited down a little bit, I'm going to re-post this and see if I can get some feedback
S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Sheik
5. Wolf
6. Lucas
7. Mario
8. Snake

- A and B tier removed for easy reading

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Deedeedee

Just curious, what was it about Wario that put him at 3rd for you?

 

[Ariyo]

Ok. Now that thinks have quited down a little bit, I'm going to re-post this and see if I can get some feedback
S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Sheik
5. Wolf
6. Lucas
7. Mario
8. Snake

A Tier
9. Marth
10. Ivysaur
11. Peach
12. Metaknight
13. Pit
14. Jigglypuff
15. Donkey Kong
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Bowser
18. Ike
19. Charizard
20. Diddy Kong

B Tier
21. Lucario
22. Link
23. Captain Falcon
24. Ness
25. ROB
26. Mr. Game and Watch
27. Sonic
28. Toon Link
29. Zelda
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Deedeedee

I honestly believe Falcon wrecks everyone in your B and C tier. Cept Pikachu. I believe that's only slightly in Falcon's favor. EDIT: Just why i think Falcon's at least A tier. You're tier list and not mine though.

 

[Nguz95]

Just curious, what was it about Wario that put him at 3rd for you?

Wario is basically fat Jigglypuff. His aerial mobility lets him get in much easier than it appears. His aerials have lots of uses, which means that he can mix up his approach better than almost anyone. His neutral game is good by virtue of its depth. Even without a projectile he can safely approach from any angle and transition into his combo game.

In terms of recovery, Wario is very heavy and falls relatively quickly. This, when coupled with his aerial mobility, makes him one of the hardest to kill characters in the game. Although his side-b is not as good as it used to be in this regard, he is still very difficult to kill.

Wario's combo game is multi-faceted and deep. He has a variety of different combos for different weights, and he can finish with uair and side-b on almost anybody. Just watch Reflex and Strong Bad go in with Wario, it's deadly.

In short, I think Wario is a character that does not have very many weaknesses. He is very solid all around, and I believe he has an easier time in the neutral than Mario, his counterpart. He's like Puff without the dying at 75% thing.

I honestly believe Falcon wrecks everyone in your B and C tier. Cept Pikachu. I believe that's only slightly in Falcon's favor.

Interesting. I personally think the opposite, but I would be interested to hear your reasoning.

For me, Captain Falcon is a character that suffers from a very poor recovery and a one-dimensional neutral game. He is capable of dishing out the same justice we saw in Melee, but now his neutral game is slightly outdated. In an environment full of dangerous projectiles and disjointed hitboxes, Falcon's game, which centers on dash dancing and grabbing, is more easily countered than ever. Even characters like Lucario, who have similar strategies in the neutral game, have projectiles and other means of compensating for what is otherwise lackluster.

Please note that he is near the top of B tier, which means that most of the characters below him would indeed have a hard time against him.

 

[DMG]

I honestly believe Falcon wrecks everyone in your B and C tier. Cept Pikachu. I believe that's only slightly in Falcon's favor.

I disagree. Only characters in that grouping that I would say he "wrecks" (as in 6:4 or better MU in his favor), would be ROB/TL/D3. Most of those characters have decent MU's with Falcon: Buffed Ness, Zelda, Link, and G^W are pretty respectable choices vs Falcon now. Squirtle is harder than you probably think as well (I've played Bwett in that MU).

I'm leaning away from maining Falcon in PM, but you can take it from me. A large majority of those MU's listed in his B/C tier are not free wins for Falcon. If they were, I would be playing him every game instead of considering someone like Marth who *legit* bodies most of those characters.

For a rough idea, I'll briefly post what I roughly think the MU is for most the characters (sorry Luigi and Pika people, nobody plays dem characters or I'm too busy being Martha)

B Tier
21. Lucario - Evenish. Possibly 5 points either character's favor
22. Link - Maybe 55:45 Falcon? I predominantly go Fox cause that feels freeish
23. Captain Falcon - Knee
24. Ness - Slightly Falcon's Favor
25. ROB - Probably close to 6:4, some stages closer to even for ROB
26. Mr. Game and Watch - maybe even, Dakpo strikes fear into the hearts of men
27. Sonic - 5:5 to 55:45 for Falcon, Sethlon would probably agree with that
28. Toon Link - 55:45 to 6:4 for Falcon
29. Zelda - 5:5
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle - Teeny advantage Falcon
33. Ganondorf - 55:45ish
34. King D3 - 6:4ish, can be close to even depending on stage


Edit: the issue for Falcon doesn't tend to be the new projectiles. What makes Falcon's life harder, is the plethora of "anti Spacie" combo tools that also tend to work on him. Edgeguarding and comboing Falcon is really easy when he's stuck with the same crappy recovery, FF status, and his techroll is really punishingly bad still. Ivysaur's Leaf, Lucas's Ice Snot Ball, buffed PK fire, etc that's not really a big issue. But everyone and their grandma getting a CG or combo from Uthrow, and picking x option to edgeguard him, makes him look very sucky.


If you are patient enough, he's very hard to pin down with projectiles (Falco laser can suck a fat one though). If a Pit wants to waste his time charging and shooting arrows, I will gladly let him. He's effectively giving me free space, and slowing down his own positioning when doing that. The same goes for a lot of characters. Wolf shooting Lasers at Falcon is not very phasing. Din's Fire isn't very phasing. Etc. Projectiles at awkward angles, like some of Diddy's stuff, can be janky to deal with, but most characters aren't like that.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

[stuff] ...The lack of general mobility also lends itself to more of a Brawl feel than Melee... [more stuff]

You're right. I personally never got involved with the Brawl scene enough to ever make comparisons to that game's parts, but what you said makes a lot of sense. It could make a good case for mobility tweaks.
Really, most of what I was praising was Dedede's combo game. I'm actually pretty curious if many other people appreciate it in the same way I do.

 

[Sarix]

Edit: the issue for Falcon doesn't tend to be the new projectiles. What makes Falcon's life harder, is the plethora of "anti Spacie" combo tools that also tend to work on him. Edgeguarding and comboing Falcon is really easy when he's stuck with the same crappy recovery, FF status, and his techroll is really punishingly bad still. Ivysaur's Leaf, Lucas's Ice Snot Ball, buffed PK fire, etc that's not really a big issue. But everyone and their grandma getting a CG or combo from Uthrow, and picking x option to edgeguard him, makes him look very sucky.

If you are patient enough, he's very hard to pin down with projectiles (Falco laser can suck a fat one though). If a Pit wants to waste his time charging and shooting arrows, I will gladly let him. He's effectively giving me free space, and slowing down his own positioning when doing that. The same goes for a lot of characters. Wolf shooting Lasers at Falcon is not very phasing. Din's Fire isn't very phasing. Etc. Projectiles at awkward angles, like some of Diddy's stuff, can be janky to deal with, but most characters aren't like that.

I agree with this as well. Being a Link main currently I find it's more productive to establish space and stuff approaches with normals rather than go to projectile zoning against Falcon. Anything that can take advantage of his weight class is much more effective on Falcon then trying to zone him out since he has the mobility to get around it.

 

[SixSaw]

The unfortunate thing is Falcon will likely never see a meaningful buff, despite needing one quite badly, because "muh melee".

 

[ELI-mination]

Lol why would Falcon need a buff? He's already mad good. And his side-b and down-b from melee have been buffed already.

 

[foxygrandpa]

If anyone thinks falcon is less than super tier, theyre honestly just wrong. I feel like the brawl characters get up aired especially hard

 

[Nguz95]

Cfal was barely top tier in Melee. In an environment where everybody is better his minimally buffed toolset can't compete like it did in Melee.

 

[DMG]

It would be hard to buff Falcon, and not have him go crazy on people. If you start doing stuff like making Dair faster/true spike, buff how strong Bair hits, buff his ground game, etc you start shaping up an incredibly strong character. At this point, there's only two buffs I would seriously consider implementing, and neither of the two involve offense.

1. Less landing lag on Upb/better recovery with it in some fashion

2. Slightly better tech options (the rolls are terrible, and REALLY suck with the sticky tech roll situation)

Falcon is still solid as a character, but he now exists in an environment where there are 5-10 new characters that are starting to look better than him, and old friends from Melee with buffs. The fact that he's probably just barely short of being in the top 50% of characters in the game right now, suggests just how much better characters are in this game.

 

[Vashimus]

Would you guys say it'd be hard to buff Squirtle and not have him go crazy on people?

 

[DMG]

Not necessarily. Some buffs could be relatively insignificant for Squirtle in the big picture. Even better armor on Side B would still leave him open to getting grabbed, etc

 

[Oro?!]

Dair always being a true spike would actually make stomp->knee harder because of the different angle it sends at. Similar to how it's easier for Marth to combo off of grounded Dair in PAL than NTSC.

 

[DMG]

Well since the PMBR overlords nerds decent human beings can edit and change things, make it a 2 degree angle spike so that it's relatively the same BUT A SPIKE THIS TIME



POINT BEING, PMBR is right to be conservative on Falcon buffs, cause you're likely to get a completely overwhelming character if they actually took into consideration the buffs many people casually toss around for him, as if it would be a good idea. "I never understood why a man like Captain Falcon has such meager grab range. I demand he snatch thy ******* like Funky Kong!" "Give his Upb a hitbox and make it twice as long and make down b really slow so he can DJ out of it quick like Ganon OH AND SWORDS NYAAAAAA~~~~!~!~!~!~~`/ incomprehensible nerd-gasm in the process"


He doesn't need that kind of stuff. Having grand ideas for Falcon may be your (addressed to random guy on forums. You know who you are, all 6 of you) personal wet dream *FalconBroFoSho*, but it would be other character's nightmares

 

[Plum]

Falcon having better tech options would be SO amazing.
Although the Sheik player inside me sheds a single tear at the thought of having to predict Falcon's techs.

 

[metroid1117]

Falcon having better tech options would be SO amazing.
Although the Sheik player inside me sheds a single tear at the thought of having to predict Falcon's techs.

Falcon with a Fox/Falco/Sheik tier spot-dodge would be scary as well >.>.

 

[Vashimus]

Falcon with a laser. :]

 

[ELI-mination]

I'm afraid of falcon-from-the-future

 

[Mono.]

MK very stronk

 

[DMG]

I'm afraid of falcon-from-the-future

 

[GP&B]

Only possible offensive buff I would give to Falcon is something that improves his ground game without making his follow-up or throw game any better than it is. Something like the roundhouse FSmash from 64 would be kickass, but I don't see that happening.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Falcon should forever be the median character, neither good nor bad, just viable.

 

[Spiffykins]

We can't get rid of the People's Elbow, man. It's, like, the people's elbow and stuff. His up smash could be Smash 64-ified though, and if his down tilt was a little more poke-y and a little less "you're at super high percents and this is an easy way to setup into knee, i would never use this move otherwise", that'd be cool. Tech rolls and recovery are also options, but I kinda like the idea of Falcon simultaneously being amazing and complete poo. It's almost like it wouldn't be Falcon if that ceased to be the case, at this point.

 

[SpiderMad]

I don't think Falcon needs changes, I'm not always satisfied with some of his feeble tilts and stuff but I think all of them have served some kind of purpose in the repertoire of the pro Falcon main

 

[Strong Badam]

just passing by and saw this

The unfortunate thing is Falcon will likely never see a meaningful buff, despite needing one quite badly, because "muh melee".

why does captain falcon deserve to be better than a significant portion of the cast? he is a carbon copy of his melee playstyle and then some added flair. is that not enough? is the point instead to make sure falcon is 7th best in the game? jigglypuff is also commonly put further down on tier lists than melee. does she need a buff too? these are all serious questions the answers to which have serious implications of what "good enough" really is.

 

[Yung Mei]

why does falcon's upB give the opponent their jump back, its so stupid lmao

falcon is good, but there are so many characters that are better than him, and it makes him look mediocre as ****

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Are you people ****in' high? Falcon does not need buffs. He has buffs. He can snap to the ledge with his sideb now, did you not notice that? If people challenge that offstage, and get hit, it's completely safe. Falcon is a great character, and they've already fixed the dumbest **** with his design, which was that he died if he tried to use his sideb offstage. EVERYBODY tried it at some point, if they played Falcon, because it seemed like it should totally work. So the dumb **** is fixed, what more do you want?

Everyone wants their character to be the best in the game. STOP IT! If your character is ****in' Melee C.Falcon levels of good, you are in good shape. Have you heard of Hax? Do you remember freaking Isai? You'll be fine.

 

[Nguz95]

Tell me when Captain Falcon places top 5 in a national, ok?