Tier List Speculation

[SpiderMad]

I'm just asking as a general question.

I own a CRT but I've played Melee/Brawl/P:M on roughly 5 HDTVs over the years at friend's houses, my most recent of them being in this gaming lounge tournament which helped me beat Oro and Rat. Melee and Brawl both lag on HDTVs and I'm guessing the exact same amount, and that amount of course though can range from decent to unplayable based on the HDTV. It's said you can lower it for either game by getting Component cables and then putting the game into 480p instead of 480i, making the HDTV have to covert less and thus give out less lag. Some also have a game mode to reduce lag a bit more though none I've played on seem to have it.

I've never had lag issues on a CRT. But that's besides the point; I'm still confused about how bad image quality gives Bowser the advantage.

Some Tvs are horrible quality at tournaments, sometimes the little Tv in the corner has better resolution/quality than some of these larger Tvs. I read SW or someone say certain CRTs do have lag issues, might have been in the MeleeitonMe FB group. There's also the aspect of sound.

Playing with Component vs Composite is night and day. The visuals (and also I believe the sound) gives you much more response to the game technically in ways you can't describe. The next best if your CRT can't do composite is S-video via the $5 cable I mentioned.
$5 S-video http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Com...380764033&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=s+video+wii
$5 Component http://www.amazon.com/Component-Cable-Wii-Bulk-Packaging-Nintendo/dp/B000M4KIME
$20 Monster Component (What I use) http://www.amazon.com/Wii-Monster-GameLink-Component-Stereo-Nintendo/dp/B000NWDX6S/ref=sr_1_4?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1380770764&sr=1-4&keywords=Component wii monster

But it's not just that though regarding playing optimally allowing punish characters to be less good: it's also due to the people using an inferior air dodge making their overall DDWD/PlatformWL game slower (along with less comfortable and ergonomic) and also making their hand position and set strength level to become less responsive to other sensitive aspects of the game. Then beyond that, a buffer of 1 frame entirely completes the game into a masterpiece, unlocking the potential of near unviable techniques only seen occasionally in top level play (Squirtle's SH Bair WL and many others become 2 frame strict inputs instead of 1 frame strict). People playing awesomely with a good TV, using Component cables, and the Light press air dodge (and give or take with 1 frame of buffer) are on a higher, faster, flashier, more exciting and in control perfect level of play than people have ever seen and need to experience.

 

[Oracle]

you can always tell whos a wifi player by how high they rate zelda

zhime pls

 

[Archangel]

you can always tell whos a wifi player by how high they rate zelda

zhime pls

how high do you rate zelda? Everyone else for that matter? Where is your speculative tier list?

also everyone stop being little ******* and actually put yourself out there to be judged/cursed out. It's more fun that way.

 

[Kyu Puff]

But it's not just that though regarding playing optimally allowing punish characters to be less good: it's also due to the people using an inferior air dodge making their overall DDWD/PlatformWL game slower (along with less comfortable and ergonomic) and also making their hand position and set strength level to become less responsive to other sensitive aspects of the game. Then beyond that, a buffer of 1 frame entirely completes the game into a masterpiece, unlocking the potential of near unviable techniques only seen occasionally in top level play (Squirtle's SH Bair WL and many others become 2 frame strict inputs instead of 1 frame strict). People playing awesomely with a good TV, using Component cables, and the Light press air dodge (and give or take with 1 frame of buffer) are on a higher, faster, flashier, more exciting and in control perfect level of play than people have ever seen and need to experience.

Not 100% sure what you mean by light press airdodge. You mean like setting air dodge to the light shield input? I don't think that would make much of a difference for veteran melee players; after 7 years of wavedashing my controller is so broken in that pressing the L button down takes essentially no time at all, and relearning the inputs would be a waste of time.

I'm still not clear how any of this relates to Bowser.

 

[Oracle]

top 8
fox
falco
sheik
ivysaur
wario
peach?
dk
mk

I don't know what to do with peach. shes still really strong but i can see all the new characters with huge range giving her a lot of trouble. next two characters are mario and falcon, so i guess you could bump peach down a few and replace her with one of them. and before one of you nerds says falcon is bad, until you're at strawhat's level you aren't allowed to talk

 

[Archangel]

top 8
fox
falco
sheik
ivysaur
wario
peach?
dk
mk

I don't know what to do with peach. shes still really strong but i can see all the new characters with huge range giving her a lot of trouble. next two characters are mario and falcon, so i guess you could bump peach down a few and replace her with one of them. and before one of you nerds says falcon is bad, until you're at strawhat's level you aren't allowed to talk

Holy Ivysuar first time I've seen her in top 5 in 2.6. The character is absurd though, how absurd I'm not sure.

Also, Falcon is bad

 

[Strong Badam]

the dk salt

 

[DMG]

Lmfao "Literally oozing with cheese, nacho master" -Oracle talking about the legend of DK over stream (I have no idea if he said it, but I'll say it for him and me I guess)

Falcon is still goodish? Falcon LOVES the nerfs to Ike Lucario and Sonic: literally did not feel like he was worth playing when they were the essence of god. Feels like he could have a decent MU spread vs Brawl characters, but it's hard to judge sometimes how well he can do vs jank town/different mobility options added. It really sucks that he got shafted in the process of everyone having "that one throw"/attack meant for beasting spacies. It's easier to pick on his weaknesses, and harder to judge how effective his DD/ground mobility is against new territory like Ivy or buffed Zelda/Ness/etc


Tier list for like 16 characters:

Fox
Sheik
Falco
Wario
Marth (I think this one will probably be most surprising for people)
MK
Ivy
Wolf
Peach
Snake
DK
Pit
Ike
Falcon
Mario
ZSS


VERY BRIEF EXPLANATIONS/THOUGHTS: Bold means I start talking about that character. Next bold means next character.

Fox is obvious. Sheik is really good and may be slightly better than Falco this time around with more stages. Falco is still a SPACHIE. Wario has the butt of God.

I LIKE MARTHA and there aren't many MU's he should be hating. MK is a mini Sheik. Ivysaur can burn. Wolf is climbing up, but not as desirable as the two OG spacies.

Peach is still good but I don't value her as high for being kind of immobile/slower. Snake may go past Peach and a few others if more potential is shown on abusing defensive traits (not impressed with Snake's approaching). DK is pretty solid but does not have a strong showing vs most of the upper characters sans Marth or maybe Peach at this point (maybe SB can correct me, I'm no DK master but I can't see him much higher than these other characters)

Pit is hard to place, very hard. I would like to see more comprehensive combo "solidification", the same for Wolf where people are still learning what can link with what on varying members/%'s because of the options the character has. Nothing about Pit to me screams over the top or extreme, fairly well rounded imo. Ike is my mans and needs some love from players. Still viable and the sword is just really damn good.

Falcon is still good, and probably is suffering on lists because people assume "Oh Link Ness Zelda etc got buffed, he can't win now it's so hardddd" or some other lame excuse. Stahp. Play Falcon, become a bro. Mario is overrated as hell, can't stress that enough. You people haven't answered how his approaching is on par with what is needed for a top tier character. He lacks there, which makes it harder for you to use his GOOD traits. If Falcon is gonna struggle DD camping/getting in on someone, you'd figure Mario would be screwed. Makes sense unless you value fireballs as being worth 10,000 suns of potential. Being fast like Marth Falcon etc isn't the only thing to make you good, but it's like the gateway to heaven. Maybe God will toss you a bone elsewhere and let you in, or you could be given the "garage door" button and get in whenever you want freely. You open up the game by moving faster (if you retain good options), and Mario is just lacking there a bit. Enough that I can't put him top 8 or something high.

I have nothing to say about ZSS. At all.

 

[Archangel]

Lmfao "Literally oozing with cheese, nacho master" -Oracle talking about the legend of DK over stream (I have no idea if he said it, but I'll say it for him and me I guess)

Falcon is still goodish? Falcon LOVES the nerfs to Ike Lucario and Sonic: literally did not feel like he was worth playing when they were the essence of god. Feels like he could have a decent MU spread vs Brawl characters, but it's hard to judge sometimes how well he can do vs jank town/different mobility options added. It really sucks that he got shafted in the process of everyone having "that one throw"/attack meant for beasting spacies. It's easier to pick on his weaknesses, and harder to judge how effective his DD/ground mobility is against new territory like Ivy or buffed Zelda/Ness/etc

Captain Falcon can easily take advantage of the remaining physics flaws, non-melee shields, and his improvements. Also as you stated, the brawl characters are mostly in that perfect range for combos and/or Uthrow/Dthrow knee to the face. On the other hand. Falcon suffers from the remaining physics flaws as well. You can play a decent falcon but it's hard to play a Hax level falcon so far. HOWEVER. Should some of/all the remaining weirdness be cleaned up...Falcon's going to be his usual asshole in tights self.

nvm you covered it.

 

[Hylian]

I like both Oracles and DMGs lists a lot.

 

[Oro?!]

DMG can you talk about ZSS and move her up like 6 spaces ktnxbai

 

[DMG]

I can't talk about her. I can mail you a post card with instructions written on it, for where to find my secret diary entry that explains in great length what I think about her. It will be fun you'll enjoy it.

I follow the ethical code of not putting ZSS high enough to alert anyone. Bad things will happen to her if I do that.

BRB, Government Shutdown closed my post office. Good luck getting that post card, I'll use a carrier pigeon

 

[Plum]

I can't talk about her. I can mail you a post card with instructions written on it, for where to find my secret diary entry that explains in great length what I think about her. It will be fun you'll enjoy it.

I follow the ethical code of not putting ZSS high enough to alert anyone. Bad things will happen to her if I do that.

BRB, Government Shutdown closed my post office. Good luck getting that post card, I'll use a carrier pigeon

I know where it is, so I'll save you the pigeon np np.

There's a big hayfield up near Buxton. It's got a long rock wall with a big oak tree at the north end. At the base of that wall, you'll find a rock that has no earthly business in a hayfield. Piece of black, volcanic glass. It's buried under there.

 

[DMG]

I'll hire Shyamalan to come up with a twist to that

 

[Archangel]

Pit is pretty easy top 8. Not AS easy as he was in 2.5. where he was headed to easy top 5 The nerfing slowed him but it didn't stop him.

ZSS and Squirtle are Coming for the top half of the cast. I once had them both in bottom 5 but slowly but surely they are escaping suckage.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I never thought ZSS was that bad, but Squirtle definitely was. Squirtle still isn't that good, but he's definitely a lot better. Neither of those characters is really for me, though. So they still suck, cuz I can't use them, but I see other people use them, and they do ok.

 

[theindievisual]

OKAY dudes sounds like you need some tier lists to speculate over so here's mine
characters are UNORDERED within the tiers (isn't that the point of tiers)

plenty to criticize, mines not great (or anywhere close) but hey i like making tier lists and this is what i made
enjoy friends

not-going-anywhere tier
fox
falco
sheik

holy-damn-these-guys-are-good tier
wolf
wario
ivy

pretty-damn-good tier
mario
snake
zss
ROB
DK
peach
pit
mk
lucas
marth

i-can-still-wreck-if-you-let-me tier
ike
zelda
c falcon
charizard
luigi
ganon
diddy
gnw
jiggs
bowser

meh-uphill-battle tier
lucario
link
sonic
pika
squirtle
ness
toon link
d3

 

[Oracle]

the dk salt

Sb pls. Dk has every tool he would ever need to do well. Hes got marths dd and range with a better grab, better conversions off grab, better cc game, and an arguably less abusable recovery. Its like marth was going through the matter transporter but then right as he pressed the button an escaped gorilla ran into the other side and their dna fused

 

[Strong Badam]

i agree
DK has disjoint on his entire moveset, a body type conducive to power shield reflect, a frame 6 spike, a forward-facing aerial approach option that isn't easily shield-grabbed, can edgeguard below the ledge, and a recovery that doesn't commit over 84 frames of time

 

[SpiderMad]

His Nair could fill more potential with it as a diagonal C-stick input

 

[DMG]

If you say something like that one more god damn time

C STICKING NAIRS AIN'T GONNA FIX THEM IF THEY SUCK FOR APPROACHING

 

[SpiderMad]

If you say something like that one more god damn time

C STICKING NAIRS AIN'T GONNA FIX THEM IF THEY SUCK FOR APPROACHING

You underestimate the power it gains with the ability to control momentum like other C-stick aerials. Full control to drift the move while initiating it is important in a game where safeness is also spacing. Also I feel like Overswarm this week. Next week I'm going to fill in for missing Kink Link.

Not 100% sure what you mean by light press airdodge. You mean like setting air dodge to the light shield input? I don't think that would make much of a difference for veteran melee players; after 7 years of wavedashing my controller is so broken in that pressing the L button down takes essentially no time at all, and relearning the inputs would be a waste of time.

I'm still not clear how any of this relates to Bowser.

Yep, which is currently in the Wifi version until they make a code for it to work per tag/controller slot. I play Melee as well the offline P:M version too, but you can get use to the light press even after years of the hard press, and like me find you prefer it.

The reasons are pretty common sense to me, it's easier and then thus faster to press like you would want for any controls like a Mouse click (or imagine L-canceling with a full press, which some people do since they learned wrong, they usually don't change to use light press later on but they should and sometimes want to but it takes some effort [Eggz..or maybe it was Eggm]). Then there's other reasons but they are hard to describe, including hard press being the most demanding GCC input (outlier) and making your hand position and set hand aggression level shifted from it. Eventually (hopefully soon) I'll make more videos trying to record my hands or something to describe both this and a buffer of 1 frame.

Everything I talked about combined just makes a more technical level of play, making less demanding characters not as good. On two of the worst HDTVs I've ever played on at my friend's houses trying to own them in Melee, you were limited with certain characters. Marth doing/spamming simple stuff was now better than most things. Even on the best HDTV I played on at a gaming center, Oro went Fox thinking he'd be good in lag to just Up-smash people but he misestimated the lag which was in a range where it was playable to overcome Spam moves (Fox's Up-smash) while not giving Fox enough consistent aerial/technical control. Other things besides lag can make the game not as good though. Vision: bad CRTS, bad cables (composite). Sound. Controls (Using a light tap Gaming mouse vs some hard to press mouse you might have accustomed to). And to top that off there's a world of SH (and FH) techniques that are 1-2 frame strict leaving them often unviable, only unlocked to a consistent difficulty with 1 frame of buffer. Until settings improve to let people play their best, Bowser can take more advantage.

 

[Hylian]

i agree
DK has disjoint on his entire moveset, a body type conducive to power shield reflect, a frame 6 spike, a forward-facing aerial approach option that isn't easily shield-grabbed, can edgeguard below the ledge, and a recovery that doesn't commit over 84 frames of time

Yep instead he has invincibility on moves, is extremely tanky, an unavoidable kill combo predated by the best grab game of any character, an amazing DD game and invincibility on nair/you can just rar bair or just approach with bair, and invincibility on his recovery.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Super Leftrightleft Bros. too good.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yep instead he has invincibility on moves, is extremely tanky, an unavoidable kill combo predated by the best grab game of any character, an amazing DD game and invincibility on nair/you can just rar bair or just approach with bair, and invincibility on his recovery.

it's almost like they're different characters and comparing them in a vacuum is ******** because character viability is determined by matchups

 

[ELI-mination]

Lmao ppl actually john about freaking donkey kong are you serious

 

[Juushichi]

hey man

DK is a serious concern

for lucas and link

 

[DMG]

DK was a death threat to Lucas

In Brawl

Cstick Nairs should only make a difference when you are trying to RAR Nair. Otherwise the difference in momentum is not so huge that it shifts how well people can approach with Nair. Stuff like that does not explain why Bowser is 4th in the game: I'm half torn between you being serious and you massively trolling. Maybe both.

 

[MonkUnit]

no one will ever agree on a tier list. 1/295232799039604140847618609643520000000 chance that anyone will agree.

 

[Archangel]

Sb pls. Dk has every tool he would ever need to do well. Hes got marths dd and range with a better grab, better conversions off grab, better cc game, and an arguably less abusable recovery. Its like marth was going through the matter transporter but then right as he pressed the button an escaped gorilla ran into the other side and their dna fused

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooool. dude i love you!

Can't believe this reference.

 

[HMWii22]

i agree
DK has disjoint on his entire moveset, a body type conducive to power shield reflect, a frame 6 spike, a forward-facing aerial approach option that isn't easily shield-grabbed, can edgeguard below the ledge, and a recovery that doesn't commit over 84 frames of time

I love playing DK for those reasons but I find certain matchups really difficult. What are his biggest weaknesses? Also, what do you mean by a body type conducive to power shield? Is it easier to PS on bigger characters, and if so why?

 

[DMG]

He was talking about Marth: all those points/traits are what Marth has. Marth has a good body for Power Shielding because he is vertical. His shield sticks out in front of him by a huge amount comparatively. DK's shield doesn't stick out much further than his body because of how massive he is, so there's less leniancy to power shield.

 

[HMWii22]

He was talking about Marth: all those points/traits are what Marth has. Marth has a good body for Power Shielding because he is vertical. His shield sticks out in front of him by a huge amount comparatively. DK's shield doesn't stick out much further than his body because of how massive he is, so there's less leniancy to power shield.

I think I rolled a 1 on my Detect Sarcasm check. Thank you for explaining!

 

[DMG]

It's ok. I rolled a 20 and killed DK.

 

[Strong Badam]

rip donkey kongs everywhere

 

[trash?]

RIP in piece donkey kong

someone figured out how to use falco's shine properly

 

[Juushichi]

It's ok. I rolled a 20 and killed DK.

the secret is that wario crits on a 13-20.

 

[Urielhelix]

If wario crits on a 13-20 then ganon would crit on 8-20 lol

 

[Plum]

It's ok. I rolled a 20 and killed DK.

Yeah, but did you confirm the crit?
DID YOU CONFIRM?????

 

[Oro?!]

DMG rolled 3 20s. Coup de grace.