Tier List Speculation

[Plum]

I actually did that against the BBEG in my group's last campaign, third round into combat.
As fantastic as it was, it was also a little anticlimactic...

 

[Sarix]

I think I rolled a 1 on my Detect Sarcasm check. Thank you for explaining!

How often does sarcasm ever 100% translate over the internet anyway?

 

[Deleted member]

the dk salt

i've had more problems with your DK in the short time that we played more than any other player/character combination so far. i'm not sure how much of it is DK versus you clearly putting in the time and work to improve, but he's clearly an excellent character. not that i think he needs any changes, but yeah there's definitely salt lol

 

[KayB]

Lmao ppl actually john about freaking donkey kong are you serious

You know this is because of people like you and SB

 

[Strong Badam]

i've had more problems with your DK in the short time that we played more than any other player/character combination so far. i'm not sure how much of it is DK versus you clearly putting in the time and work to improve, but he's clearly an excellent character. not that i think he needs any changes, but yeah there's definitely salt lol

he's a good character
just not top 8 in the game

 

[Urielhelix]

he's a good character
just not top 8 in the game

Then who would be the top? if every body is realy well rounded and it depends on the player then it would be hard to say wich one is the best over all?

 

[DMG]

Top seems to obviously be Fox. Only arguments I've seen so far that could be otherwise, is Sheik #1 or Falco #1

People probably better than DK:
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Wolf
Wario
MK
Ivy

Stuff like Snake Peach etc is pretty debatable, but just with those 8 alone that would place him outside top 8

 

[KayB]

Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth are all definitely in Top 8. Wolf, Wario, MK, Ivy, Snake, Peach, Mario, and Pit (if you stretch it, Bowser and ZSS) all have a shot at being in top 8.

 

[9bit]

I actually did that against the BBEG in my group's last campaign, third round into combat.
As fantastic as it was, it was also a little anticlimactic...

I played a 4E Ranger a few years ago. Coupled with the Warlock we had on our team, I regularly ended up rolling like 20 damage dice per round. I once killed a boss so fast the DM didn't even get to use its second wind. I'm talking like 500 damage in one giant roll.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

What stops ZSS from being top 8? And what makes MK top 8?

 

[DMG]

MK has a sword. He has to be good

 

[MrBigstuff]

*Cough* Link *Cough*

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

MK has a sword. He has to be good

So ganon for secret S-tier?

 

[DMG]

Link also has baggage, too much stuff carried around weighs him down

 

[trash?]

nonono it's not just sword

it's fast man with sword

link = sword, not fast = butts
sonic = FAST, not sword = also butts
MK = fast, sword = cool guy who gets all the hot dudes + ladies

 

[Vashimus]

Then who would be the top? if every body is realy well rounded and it depends on the player then it would be hard to say wich one is the best over all?

Strong Bad's top 8 (correct me if it changed since then, SB):

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Snake
Marth
Wario
Pit

 

[Deleted member]

MK = Warrior of Dreamland with a sword
ggs

 

[DMG]

Strong Bad's top 8 (correct me if it changed since then, SB):

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Snake
Marth
Wario
Pit

His Top 8 has changed. He now follows the School of Eli:

Top Tier:
Fox

Garbage Tier:
Everyone Else

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

If you walk to the edge of your sidewalk, about to fall.
And say Fight Me! Fight Me! Fight Me! Fight Me!
The only girls your gonna get is waddle doos

 

[ELI-mination]

Get it right its the book of Eli

 

[Strong Badam]

Strong Bad's top 8 (correct me if it changed since then, SB):

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Snake
Marth
Wario
Pit

it hasn't

 

[Scythe]

MK has prolly some of the best matchups against the spacies aka like 3 of the top 8 characters along with being pretty good against most other chars

 

[Deleted member]

my top 8 in no order is fox falco sheik peach wario mario pit snake, so only one character off of SB's list.

marth is definitely not a top 10 character in Project M and you guys overrate him very badly. marth is substantially easier to beat in this game than he is in melee for numerous reasons.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Man, people have been eating up Snake lately.

I'm still not convinced that he's above-average. Weirdos.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

my top 8 in no order is fox falco sheik peach wario mario pit snake, so only one character off of SB's list.

marth is definitely not a top 10 character in Project M and you guys overrate him very badly. marth is substantially easier to beat in this game than he is in melee for numerous reasons.

Care to explain?

 

[Deleted member]

Care to explain?

less dominant air to air exchanges, weaker DD game, normalized movement speed across the cast, inability to handle newer refined recoveries with tried and proven edge guarding techniques, weaker juggles, higher risk of trades from neutral, larger and more irregular stages, larger reliance on air to ground game engagements with fair, increased cast-wide ability for combos with the same poor combo weight, less able to reposition after a conversion to cover options to keep a character in a disadvantageous position, etc. all of this adds up to marginal losses, but when you have significant marginal losses in every aspect what you really get is a worse character in a relative way, but really that's all tiers are is a "relative goodness ranking" to begin with. the tl;dr is that marth got worse via game mechanics while everyone else got better.

edit: which is fine. marth shouldn't be changed anymore. but he's definitely in the middle of the cast this time around and as soon as people find his holes he's not nearly as good.

 

[KayB]

my top 8 in no order is fox falco sheik peach wario mario pit snake, so only one character off of SB's list.

marth is definitely not a top 10 character in Project M and you guys overrate him very badly. marth is substantially easier to beat in this game than he is in melee for numerous reasons.

There could definitely be an argument on whether or not he has a guaranteed position in Top 8, but there's more evidence that he is in Top 10 (or at least very close to it) than not.

 

[Deleted member]

but then he'd have to be better than DK or wolf, and he's not better than them either.

i probably put marth at exactly 11th, but that's still pretty average all things considered.

 

[Juushichi]

11 out of 34 is pretty good, I would say.

 

[ELI-mination]

Marth is absolutely better than DK

 

[Nguz95]

Still he went form being an 85th percentile character to a 68th percentile character. That actually supports Umbreon's claim. If the other characters didn't get better you would expect him to be in the same percentile. A few newcomers would be better than him, but he would still hold about the same percentile spot. However, the other characters got better, which pushes him lower than expected.

 

[Deleted member]

competitive games are polarized such that Good things are really good and Bad things are really bad, and you get a much more expansive middle-ground in terms of viability. For instance, Good/Okay/Bad is almost never a 33/33/33 percentage split, it's almost always something like 10% is good, 10% is bad, and 80% is normalized enough that it's not worth talking about. The same thing happens in Pokemon, where OU =/= tier 1.

In project M the tier lists are more normalized and the gaps between tiers are smaller, and the game is new. This gives us a lot to talk about. But I guarantee that as characters get more refined, marth will go down in people's tier lists. i'd say the same thing about bowser, for different reasons, just for a reference. bowser will only get worse.

11 out of 34 is probably right on the line of goodness mathematically but for practical purposes not so much.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

Why do you think he has a weaker DD game? I've always felt that Marth's movement speed and spacing game was what places him at the top, and I haven't seen many people fully using things like moon walks, WD OOS, wave lands, b reverse shield breakers, etc.

Not to say your wrong or Marth is top tier, but I don't think we've seen high level PM Marth. I feel like people are still playing melee marth in a game where Marth doesn't have those auto win normals.

 

[KayB]

but then he'd have to be better than DK... and he's not better than them either.

Wait, what?

but I don't think we've seen high level PM Marth.

Honestly the only high-level PM Marth I've seen is probably Sethlon.

 

[NightShadow6]

Whats the general consensus on Ivy? After her recent buffs I would imagine quite high.

 

[Nguz95]

Whats the general consensus on Ivy? After her recent buffs I would imagine quite high.

Yah. very scary indeed. not a whole lot of commitment when she throws around razor leaf. Great dthrow. amazing bair. its like zelda on that frenzy plant.

 

[KayB]

Whats the general consensus on Ivy? After her recent buffs I would imagine quite high.

She's Top 15 at least.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

She's definitely more solid than she used to be, but I still think she's kinda gimmicky, and beatable. I keep hearing she's hella annoying, but the person I play with who uses her isn't that good, so I don't think I've got a good sample.

 

[Nguz95]

She's definitely more solid than she used to be, but I still think she's kinda gimmicky, and beatable. I keep hearing she's hella annoying, but the person I play with who uses her isn't that good, so I don't think I've got a good sample.

YOu might want to watch reflex. it's pretty impressive. He took out a good wario with it (can't remember who though).

 

[Nausicaa]

LOL Looking back at my old Tier Lists.
Both from MONTH 1 and MONTH 6 of 2.1
Awesome!

Fox + Luigi + Peach + Pika + Sheilda
DK + Falco + Lucas + Marth + Pit + Sheik + Snake + Sonic + Wolf
Falcon + Jiggs + Link + Lucario + Mario + TL + Wario + Zelda
Bowser + Char + Dedede + Ganon + GW + Ike + Ness

2 TIERS
A - Viable to win tournaments on their own. They can compete all the way to winning a tournament with few major disadvantageous hurdles along the way.
Falcon + DK + Falco + Fox + Link + Lucario + Lucas + Luigi + Mario + Marth + Peach + Pika + Pit + Sheik + Snake + Sonic + TL + Wolf + Wario + Zelda/Sheik

1 - Viable to compete in tournaments but may need character changes to back them up on their way. If things play out well on route, they won’t have to change.
Bowser + Zelda + Ness + ROB + Charizard + Ike + Jiggs + Dedede + GW + Ganon

I was going to add descriptions in some notes, but whatever. I’ll post some tweaks I’d like in the suggestion forum, as they’re more appropriate there even though they’re related to balance and viability directly.

Sweet to see.


I don't know if that's on topic, but I thought it was cool to reflect on for myself.