Tier List Speculation

[Hylian]

If you guys dislike colored posts you can always turn them off >_>.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You can turn off people's colored text, but you can't turn off the color tags they actively put in the post. (i.e. the yellow text up there)

 

[Hylian]

Well...YOU can't turn those off at least :D :D :D.


Fair enough though.

 

[Plum]

It's not colored posts, it's the poor colored posts.
Like you're green is visible, and the specific colors people choose to use is like a neat way to add flavor.
But when I can't visibly see the words without highlighting the post it kind of defeats the point.

 

[Nausicaa]

Sheik may scream top 5 to you now, but it has to be somebody, and it won't last. Don't be so stern on you IMO stuff. To say Sheik is top 5, and not Peach, with any form of bluntness in context, is silly and naive.
Just figured that was worth mentioning, as this game is too flexible to limit your expressive perspective that way when it comes to discussions, hopefully that makes sense to you. Complicated wording. haha






SUPERLATEEDIT

I think this Sheik stuff is oversimplified into 2003 meta-game talk.

Sheik is a very difficult character to play at a top level (tedious/fragile/position, precision, and decision strained). Though before this level of play (flushed meta-game included, otherwise it wouldn't be top level play and only temporary phase of development), she actually can lean a little into the dominating zone (slight freebies deep within the dynamics of her neutral game, not talking about combos and set-ups here, but the holes and pokes [methods] of working with the opponent efficiently enough to not get caught and clobbered).

No word on Sheik being 'good' should be taken with anything less than a bucket of salt (not just a grain of salt), until literally the meta-game of the entire roster is beginning to take some structural form (the kind of thing where people start throwing graphs around because of)

This is simply due to the nature of having many tools for any circumstance. These tools overlap into the 'functionality-zones' of other tools (circumstances where other tools would also be great) and this brings excessive dynamics and depth to her game-play. THIS CANNOT BE DEVELOPED UNTIL OTHERS ARE DONE.

Think of opposite to Falco. Falco is full of holes, he develops in a way to crush and choke people with hard hitboxes and spacing with means of covering these holes by smothering opponents in variations of coverage, none (literally nothing he does) of which are guaranteed (with few minor but still significant exceptions, ex: shine-grab).

He is on the extreme of this, Sheik leans in the other direction by nature. The same applies to any all all characters that imply weaving through holes (with either an abundance of tools [Fox] or a few [Falcon] regardless of style and flavor), compared to those who naturally gravitate towards covering holes (Falco, to a lesser extent, Jiggs). Always keep that in mind when it comes to tier-list discussion, which naturally includes heavy reliance on meta-game dynamic understanding. (possible reasoning with our current knowledge to conceptualize the truth of the matter)

/end detailing.

*Universal obvious captains*
Hanging out in this thread...
Going in circles and circles!
'sheik has no problems with stuff' 'sheik is easy to do well with' 'sheik can deal with anything'

If a character like Sheik (the basis of what the character's meta-game revolves around ENTIRELY) did NOT make it seem like had the potential to be a 'Top Tier' character almost immediately, and ALWAYS, then that character (this example : Sheik) wouldn't be balanced very well, and would likely be leaning on the weak side.
She better be universally good, that's kind of her thing. Not breaking anything, but on the edge of beastly in a lot.

Refer to the other post again.


This applies to Marth/Peach as well, for different reasons. Marth will STILL DD Grab, regardless of match-up, and it will work. Peach will STILL be a fortress of mixed tools, hit-boxes, and diversity, regardless of match-up, and it will work. Jiggs WILL be a spaceship, but this is something that's greatly affected by improvements in other areas, given her spaceship niche ACTUALLY REQUIRES better mobility and range on her part over the opponent.

DD Grab? Marth can do that, regardless of opponents. Fortress of diversity? Peach has the tools for it all, so she's good too.
Both of these traits aren't going to be nullified by a few specifics or general changes. OTHERS have to play in a way that will deal with THEM. Peach can adjust to do whatever she wants, and Marth will always DD Grab, other characters need to keep up with these. Jiggs is limited since she has to play to her opponents, but is LINEAR in the way she does it.
Jiggs may be hurt.
Peach, Marth, and Sheik, are not.
So stop being silly.

Dedede is more linear though...

Screw Dedede.

Ehem...
If the basic concept and application of this detailing is not fully understood, then how good characters are relative to each other (a list consisting of tiers) will not be understood, no matter how accurate or inaccurate the presented list (or true character tiers) may be in comparison to the readers perception of a tier list based on their own understanding.

Edit: Mild clarification, hope it helps. Freaking run-on sentences and stuff.

If I'm reading that list right, then I strongly disagree with Sheik not being with Peach Wario etc. At absolute worst, you'd figure Sheik is roughly equal with Peach (or Peach somehow caught up). It's more likely that Sheik is a tad better, and wholly deserves being mentioned up near the top.

Was in response to this.

 

[Archangel]

3
D3

so DDD or D3 is in 3? 3D? DSAFL;DSJFDASJF mind Blowing!

 

[Archangel]

WTF double post...like 20 minutes late lag...

 

[Professor Pro]

Nausicaa do you have vids of you playing? Ironically the majority of theory crafters never have vids of them playing or they are below average/mediocre so I just wanted to test the consistency in this statement lol.

 

[Nausicaa]

Edit: I'll PM you instead.
Too social thready for this.

 

[SpiderMad]

Edited out?

 

[SpiderMad]

Edited out?

 

[Nausicaa]

wat? 10charz + 1

Edit: Social thread much?

 

[Deleted member]

Nausicaa do you have vids of you playing? Ironically the majority of theory crafters never have vids of them playing or they are below average/mediocre so I just wanted to test the consistency in this statement lol.

you'd be surprised how many theory crafters there are. some are more prominent than others but yeah lots of people go at it. i mostly agree with your statement though.

but seriously though sheik is incredible. i love this character so much.

 

[Plum]

For a lot of players their hands just don't operate at the same level as their mind.
When games have large playerbases you see this more often, but there's for sure going to be people like this regardless of the game you play.
Just as an easy to see example, many of the best commentators in esports have a level of understanding very close to, if not at the level of the professional players, but don't have the mechanical skill. You see the opposite enough too. Very mechanical players who just make rookie mistakes.

 

[Nausicaa]

It's pretty awesome when both get working. Little gems that end up doing a lot for the collective community.

 

[mudkyp]

Why did it take ~100 pages for everyone to agree that Ivysaur is boss *****?


mfw razor leaf interrupts a Luigi side b misfire

 

[#HBC | Joker]

cuz it took a new release, and a bunch of buffs, for it to be true?

 

[Nausicaa]

Everything interrupts misfire, of course razor leaf will.
Every character for top tier, except Luigi.

 

[Viceversa96]

Do we actually have a theoretical list yet? I just want to see people's lists.

 

[Nausicaa]

Here's THE BEST ONE, and there's some a few pages ago.
Nobody does lists much, they're weird because they game is so young and so good.

New Tier List because I'm awesome...





MY TIER LIST 2.6b
Quickly thrown together (in the last 30 minutes on Notepad!) because I want to get one done before 3.0 since I missed doing any for 2.5 and this is fun and hilarious and interesting to speculate.

All characters tied within the tiers.
Bold = I have a hunch they're ever so slightly better than the others in their tier.
Italic = I have a hunch they're ever so slightly worse than the others in their tier.
() = Developing part of their game that plays a factor in my hunch.
[] = Change I would like to see the long-term results of for them in the future.

1 (barely out of 1.5, but enough that I don't suspect they'll be worse than most in that tier)
Peach - Lucas - Fox - Falco - Wario

1.5 (could be 1, could be 2, right now my best guess might as well be in a RNG)

- Char (Touch of Death efficiency, I like Up-B OOS) - Diddy (the DD, SH Aerial, and Tilt mix in Neutral) - Ivy (both sides/ends of the off-stage game) - Luigi (Neutral maneuvering precision to make his tools work) - Pit (depth and process, both in ToDing and Neutral) - MK (ToDing off offensive high-aggressive poke-based pressure)
- Everyone not mentioned is in the middle of all the characters mentioned in this tier...
- Ike (risk-vs-reward trading with highly aggressive play) - Jigg (aggressive precision play against passive-aggressive play) - Link (ToD efficiency from connected hits when dealing with aggression) - Sonic (precision and efficiency when playing passive-aggressively) - TL (coverage against aggressive play into ToDing) - ZSS (ToDing)

2
- Bowser (naturally polarizing, dealing with aggressively-passive play, overly reliant on out-matching it with his own aggressively-passive play)
[Down-B JC-able earlier in the jump > use as a counter of sorts that keeps him functionally mobile, which is crucial for him in these situations + using armor feature functionally]
- Squirt (Neutral maneuvering precision to make his tools work, ToDing off mid-% conversions without often necessary resets, or at least having efficient process afterwards when it's needed)
[allow the recovery/hop after-hit on Side-B to be slightly more controllable > can be more liberal with his best convert-to-finisher]
- Zelda (aggressively-passive play, overly reliant on spaced ground attacks + Grab mixes with low mobility/unreliable distance game overly focused on)
[Side-B Fireballs to travel further initially and slow in speed when traveling further away > more accuracy and speed in close-quarters for functionality of the distance game, without losing longer distance game]
- Ganon (same as Bowser, though instead is overly reliant on the simple SH Aerial + faked into Aerial Side-B/WL > Grab mix in Neutral for it)
[less recovery on Dash Attack/Aerial Side-B > less commitment on attempts to catch opponents in this situation/faster active hit-box or more range on Up-B > for OOS behind for more interesting dynamics in vs Ganon match-ups]
- Lucario (Overall Neutral without Aura Charge, or how effective a difference with AC is vs without to make up for it in terms of ToD and sustaining presence in Neutral once triggered)
[stats slightly altered to Crouch Cancel better > more passive-aggressive options in Neutral to transition, counter, and convert off of + STEEL TYPE DUH/every-so-slightly faster Down-B, maybe a frame or 2 start-up faster]
- ROB (effective aggressively-passive play in Neutral that can convert to a ToD or a process for it, overly reliant on precision to position tedious/risky tools with limits on what's universally rewarding)
[Somewhere from 10 to 20 degree up and down angling on Aerial Side-B > precision positioning that still takes the same commitment > requires repeated connections to gain reward, this is the core of his theme]

3
D3 (dealing with high aggression or passive-aggressive play... overly reliant on too few tools and can't be applied in a way that drastically changes functional play-style extensively enough to match/compared to all others > may not need to, but may end up far too polarizing to function if so)
[More BKB on several attacks, like F-Tilt > More presence on the stage against all forms of opposition play-style outside of directly converting hits in Neutral that lead to his fairly able ToDs and stock taking processes]


THERE

I did it!

 

[Viceversa96]

Here's THE BEST ONE, and there's some a few pages ago.
Nobody does lists much, they're weird because they game is so young and so good.

Dang Mario is so bad he's not on the list? Lol jk it's sad that not many people use Mario, he's very good. Has the tools to deal with everything. I have fun playing him.

 

[Archangel]

Dang Mario is so bad he's not on the list? Lol jk it's sad that not many people use Mario, he's very good. Has the tools to deal with everything. I have fun playing him.

I have a theory that people WANT a weakness in their character. A major one. Anyone who's seen as having the tools to handle everything is usually seen as boring after awhile and nobody plays them. Sheik, Mario, Pit?

I see a pattern emerging here.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Not one of those characters actually fits the criteria you describe. Mario does NOT have the tools to handle everything. He's got a lot of tools, but he still has the same stubby limbs he had in melee, so he still suffers from a lack of range. That's a very real weakness he has, even if it's not quite as detrimental as it used to be. Sheik probably does have all the tools to handle everything, but... Sheik is one of the most commonly used characters, so saying "nobody plays them" is horribly inaccurate. And Pit... yea he's solid and all, but I don't think "he's too good, and therefore is boring" is the reason so few people play him. PM players pick up characters cuz they just got new buffs, so now they are more awesome than they were before, and melee players play melee characters. Pit isn't either of those. Pit is played by character loyalists, and those people are spread out among the dozens of characters in the game, so there's not going to be a ton of them on any one character until the PM community blows up more.

 

[| Kailex |]

 

[Vashimus]

Mario is more overrated than natural childbirth, and we've all seen Umbreon come buckets just talking about how amazing Sheik-senpai is. I know nothing about Pit's popularity though.

 

[Archangel]

Mario does NOT have the tools to handle everything. He's got a lot of tools, but he still has the same stubby limbs he had in melee, so he still suffers from a lack of range. That's a very real weakness he has, even if it's not quite as detrimental as it used to be.

Depends on how you view range. If you consider projectiles as an extension of the character then suddenly he's got very good range.

Sheik probably does have all the tools to handle everything, but... Sheik is one of the most commonly used characters, so saying "nobody plays them" is horribly inaccurate.

allow me to rephrase what I said because apparently you are from the literal family. When I say nobody I mean comparatively. While it's true no character will ever have as many players as fox/falco Sheik has a staggeringly low player base and has been this way since like...06? For a character that's been rated S for so long it doesn't make sense why she isn't used more. Although in the past year we've seen more top level sheik's return/emerge.

And Pit... yea he's solid and all, but I don't think "he's too good, and therefore is boring" is the reason so few people play him. PM players pick up characters cuz they just got new buffs, so now they are more awesome than they were before, and melee players play melee characters. Pit isn't either of those. Pit is played by character loyalists, and those people are spread out among the dozens of characters in the game,

Pit is kinda young to have character loyalist although some do exist(myself being one of them). I also didn't say he was too good being the reason he's boring, it's the amount of tools he has and how he uses them even though they've been toned down a bit. In 2.1 it was the double glide in 2.5 it was the lagless aerial arrow that juggled people until he could get close enough to attack. Then there is the aspect of him flying back to the stage which is kinda off putting for many players who are use to puff being the best recovery they've seen at least this is what those in my melee circle speak of.

Anyway, Melee players play melee characters is not correct as a whole. Generalization perhaps but I can tell you first hand it's not the case. Armada(pit) Leffen(ZSS) Myself(Pit), Silentwolf(wolf), Hammertime(Lucas), Wobbles(Mario), Fly(DDD), Professor Pro(snake), Wizzrobe(Sonic). I can go on but I think the point is made.

so there's not going to be a ton of them on any one character until the PM community blows up more.

true enough, I don't think the PM community will grow until PM itself is out of the demo phase or at least out of the character changing phase. Many people who've lost interest have done so on a mostly temporary basis. Melee and by extension Project M requires alot of work to master a particular character and many people just aren't willing to invest in a character that could be very different in the next update. As for character popularity, My reply was originally suppose to be sarcastic and truth be told there is no way to really know. Sonic and Lucario cheeseballs in 2.1 and they were at least as good as Ike if not better than he was. However, Ike became one of the most popular character in the 2.1 scene. Remember FC? Like 4083240830423878357 Ike players. So even in a game so young there are still favorites. Who will be the favorite doesn't always depend on how top players are using either. Armada is undefeated with Pit and as you mentioned their hasn't been a boom with Pit more like Booo...lol


On Topic, after this past weekend I need to redo my list...Charizard is better than I thought. Not too good better but he's not as bottom as I thought he was.

 

[Juushichi]

Mario is more overrated than natural childbirth, and we've all seen Umbreon come buckets just talking about how amazing Sheik-senpai is. I know nothing about Pit's popularity though.

Vashimus, are you really trying to make a theme here?

Your avatar is not making things easy.

 

[ELI-mination]

Nausicaa do you have vids of you playing? Ironically the majority of theory crafters never have vids of them playing or they are below average/mediocre so I just wanted to test the consistency in this statement lol.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmm

 

[KayB]

Stuff

You should calm down. Not only are some parts of your post rude, but some things you say are either opinions being presented as facts or just plain wrong.

 

[Archangel]

You should calm down. Not only are some parts of your post rude, but some things you say are either opinions being presented as facts or just plain wrong.

what? What the hell are you talking about? I was rude??? If I did say anything that can be interpreted as rude I apologize but I don't believe I was anymore rude than the person I was replying to.

As far as Opinions being presented as facts....I'm not sure anything in that post screams this is the law. I don't present anything as a fact unless it's a fact.

For example, Melee players don't just play melee characters. That is a Fact and it can be observed in reality.

then.

I don't think the PM community will grow until PM itself is out of the demo phase or at least out of the character changing phase.

^ clearly an opinion. If people are taking them as facts then don't. Not sure you can find many post in this thread or on this site that are 100% fact.
so I am not sure what you are getting at? Or did you just feel like coming at me for some odd reason?

 

[Vashimus]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmm

 

[Nausicaa]

^Sick harmonies!

 

[Mew2King]

sheik's not as good as u think with how much buffed the other chars were

i hear from a lot of ppl ivy is ridiculous but i never played him before

 

[Archangel]

sheik's not as good as u think with how much buffed the other chars were

i hear from a lot of ppl ivy is ridiculous but i never played him before

so....that means sheik isn't easy top 5 anymore? Cuz alot of people suggest that she is easy top 5, maybe easy top .

 

[Kyu Puff]

Even though Sheik's d-throw changed, her grab game is still ridiculously good and she does really well against the majority of the new characters. Not so for Jigglypuff (imo).

 

[Oro?!]

My list hasn't changed at all since my post Nerd Rage list. Top 10 was something like
Fox, Falco, Sheik, MK, Ivy, Wario, Marth, Pit, ZSS, Mario

 

[\Apples]

My top 10 would look something like this.
Fox, Falco, Wolf, Sheik, Wario, Sonic, Diddy, Metaknight, Peach, and Zero Suit Samus.

Bottom 5
Bowser, Luigi, Toon Link, Ganondorf, and King Dedede.

Bowser cause Bowser just sucks.
Luigi cause he's JUST under par in like every way and it's unfortunate.
Tinky cause he's just kind of alright and cause 2.6 Link just sort of outdated him.
Ganondorf and King Dedede because their neutral games are complete ass even with their command grabs and range.

 

[Oro?!]

Actually I forgot about Peach. I would replace either Mario/Pit/ZSS with Peach. I also forgot wolf too lol. Whatever that's my top 12 I guess.

 

[Trinsic]

you'd be surprised how many theory crafters there are. some are more prominent than others but yeah lots of people go at it. i mostly agree with your statement though.

Character balance in competitive games, and game design in general, is just one of those things everyone seems to think they're super knowledgeable about even (or especially) when they aren't. It's kind of like writing in that sense. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, but in regards to some things people think their assholes are magical fountains of insight that must be shared with the world.

I confess to being guilty of this myself. I'm pretty darn casual. I'm sure some of the suggestions or ideas I've put forth on this or the old forum were dumb as hell, though from time to time people seem to like what I say. Mostly I just think talking about game design is a lot of fun and pretty interesting, so here I am.

You can't get rid of me.

 

[\Apples]

Mostly I just think talking about game design is a lot of fun and pretty interesting, so here I am.

All day every day, this is me and Vidjo. It's the topic of over 50% of our conversations and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Actually I forgot about Peach. I would replace either Mario/Pit/ZSS with Peach. I also forgot wolf too lol. Whatever that's my top 12 I guess.

Yeahhhh I forgot Peach too lol. I guess I'll put her over Marth? Picking 10 is 2hard.