Tier List Speculation

[SpiderMad]

ROB is near top tier

 

[trash?]

speaking of, are JCz/Bstuk going to big house 3? if there's any point where ROB's placement is going to change, it'd be there

 

[Strong Badam]

jcz is goin

 

[42_]

Though I wouldn't say ROB is top tier, he's definitely high tier or close to it, as SpiderMad mentioned.


ROB has a bunch of strengths:

- Great range on essentially everything he has​

- Very quick tilts, aerials, grab and jab​

- Great grab/throw game with uair/dair chaingrabs or follow ups into aerial juggles or tech chases​

- Very mobile from the side-B momentum boost and gyro glide tossing​

- Good, versatile recovery that is hard to contest against​

- Multi-use projectiles to aid in full stage zoning, shield pressure and gimping​

- Plenty of mix-up options and potent gimmicks (such as DACUS)​

Taking all of these positive points together, ROB has:

- Solid combo/ juggle game​

- Solid aggressive and defensive play​

- Great gimping ability​

- Full stage zone control​

- Good poke game​

- Good mind game/mix-up game​

The only real weaknesses ROB has are:

- Being susceptible to heavy combo damage from characters, such as Captain Falcon​

- Having a lack of solid OOS options to regain distance​

- Being dangerously predictable and easy to bait when not utilizing his mix-up potential​

That being said, as a ROB main since day 1, I believe ROB is a very strong contender in the current version of P:M and is very underrated among the community as it stands.

(Understandable though as he has few known players, and little representation through tournament results and videos.)

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

For a lot of players their hands just don't operate at the same level as their mind.
When games have large playerbases you see this more often, but there's for sure going to be people like this regardless of the game you play.
Just as an easy to see example, many of the best commentators in esports have a level of understanding very close to, if not at the level of the professional players, but don't have the mechanical skill. You see the opposite enough too. Very mechanical players who just make rookie mistakes.

Temp

Kid has better tech skill than me but makes dumbass mistakes, in contrast me and my brother just play smart and have good reaction time and kick ass with that

And Ivy is dumb with that ridiculous back-air

 

[Nausicaa]

^ Having the combo of all the beneficial things in the quote and post there, is ideal, and completely do-able by all and any.

he's definitely high tier or close to it

- Having a lack of solid OOS options to regain distance​

​

- Being dangerously predictable and easy to bait when not utilizing his mix-up potential​

​

WHO ISN'T?! :D

U-Smash OOS isn't terribad.

He relies extensively on tedious positioning that he has to commit to pretty greatly.
Not terribad, but that's why I think he's teetering on the edge in terms of the few that might just fall flat on their faces short.

 

[42_]

Yeah, I was kinda struggling with some good negative points there, lol.

Though he does need some solid positioning to really squeeze everything out of his combo potential, he can always play a more defensive, poke/camp game with his range and projectiles. Sure, it requires some positioning as well, but it relies more so on reading your opponent's movements and punishing accordingly.

(Playing lame, Brawl-style ROB works )

 

[Nausicaa]

Would be sweet if his WD, or DD, were actually good enough to play a passive-aggressive poking game, or his aerial Side-B could go backwards/downwards/in angles...
Defensive I don't think is much of a solid way of getting around his tediousness.
Needs a Final Smash that turns his B laser into a light-saber... and then he can Side-B on the ground with it and wreck stuff.

 

[| Big D |]

Dedede is good.

I'm serious. My fear is he gets nerfed in the next patch.

But then I come here and see people claiming he's bad.

And then my fears are laid to rest.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Yo you tryna say I need more than tech-skillz and wave shines?
#pressingbuttonsmadfast

 

[Oracle]

rob is not even close to top tier. hes gimmicky as hell and has very few solid strategies that work consistently. if you can outplay your opponent with mobility tricks with side b (which basically no rob players besides myself and bstuk do) then thats pretty good, except the rewards all the other characters get for doing that is much higher.

 

[Deleted member]

Nausicaa do you have vids of you playing? Ironically the majority of theory crafters never have vids of them playing or they are below average/mediocre so I just wanted to test the consistency in this statement lol.

Attacking someone based on their play ability not only encourages ad hominem fallacies to be reinforced, you also spread a mindset that player skill adds power to an idea. This is strictly negative for us as a group. If you want to attack my player skill it's w/e because enough people have seen me play at this point, but you really shouldn't encourage other people to put up vids or stfu because you'll just stifle conversation and/or player entry within the community. It's just bad.

Mario is more overrated than natural childbirth, and we've all seen Umbreon come buckets just talking about how amazing Sheik-senpai is. I know nothing about Pit's popularity though.

Sheik is amazing. I currently put her at 2nd after fox.

 

[trash?]

Attacking someone based on their play ability not only encourages ad hominem fallacies to be reinforced, you also spread a mindset that player skill adds power to an idea. This is strictly negative for us as a group. If you want to attack my player skill it's w/e because enough people have seen me play at this point, but you really shouldn't encourage other people to put up vids or stfu because you'll just stifle conversation and/or player entry within the community. It's just bad.

how good a player is absolutely has merit in what they say
do you think people trust M2K over a random joe with opinions because he just sounds a bit nicer?
hell, prof can definitely say this, because he's UK's best player, so when he says "snake is top tier", people actively change what they believe because of it, because people want actual experience within answers and not theorycrafting all the way down

 

[Deleted member]

how good a player is absolutely has merit in what they say
do you think people trust M2K over a random joe with opinions because he just sounds a bit nicer

I've been friends with jason for over a decade, and to trust his opinion without context is an absolutely terrible idea. you should ALWAYS question the person's perspective absolutely, but that's something that can elaborated on with further text and reasoning.

everyone knows who knows what they're talking about. even if SB or KK or UM didn't play at all we'd probably respect their understanding of the game because we can read their reasoning and get where they're coming from. i know a few people that literally don't play smash at all that obviously understand this game better than some of the regular players on this forum do. going "your idea sucks show me vids" is a horrible way to validate anything.

edit: i also think snake is top tier, without knowing any of prof's personal opinions on the character. completely independently i'd say that yes snake is top tier at this point.

 

[ELI-mination]

There's just as much theorycrafting at high level as there is at low level. The difference is that at high level there's a stronger chance of it being backed up by something tangible. However that doesn't mean its automatically correct or even reasonable, or doesn't include its own bias.

 

[trash?]

my point isn't that it's required; it's that its lacking is what makes awful opinions

do you really think that person from a few pages back got their opinion of luigi being top tier and snake being worst in game from high level play? or that melee purists have bad opinions about new characters because they only play P:M with their melee mains at tournaments? at no point did I say you should blindly follow through these people, but you're lying if you say you aren't taking reflex's opinion more seriously than theorycrafter #416

if someone makes a huge claim, they damn well better have something substantial to back that up, or that claim is as good as useless

 

[Deleted member]

i personally would take reflex and theorycrafter #416 equally under the premise that each of them explained themselves in an equally capable manner. i understand that player skill and understanding of the game are often related, but to say that understanding of the game is contingent upon player skill is, in my modest 11 years of experience, totally bogus. and when you guys bash me or w/e, it's cool, i've already earned lots of money from melee and i'm used to personal attacks at this point. but you're going to turn a lot of potential players and intellects away from your game.

 

[trash?]

i personally would take reflex and theorycrafter #416 equally under the premise that each of them explained themselves in an equally capable manner.

if someone makes a huge claim, they damn well better have something substantial to back that up, or that claim is as good as useless

glad we agree, then

 

[Deleted member]

i'm not debating that a stance needs to be valid, just that "hey wheres your videos" is not what we should be asking of our posters before taking them seriously.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

something substantial to back that up

Which is why this thread really doesn't need to exist so early in the game's lifespan.

 

[ELI-mination]

Well, Canon, you're right.
But I'm sure it wouldn't take much for us to come to the conclusion that pretty much every post on smashboards in as good as useless, lol. Just an observation, just an observation.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

how good a player is absolutely has merit in what they say
do you think people trust M2K over a random joe with opinions because he just sounds a bit nicer?
hell, prof can definitely say this, because he's UK's best player, so when he says "snake is top tier", people actively change what they believe because of it, because people want actual experience within answers and not theorycrafting all the way down

M2K has had some really crazy opinions about certain characters in the past, and he's always been a top player. So, no. I don't necessarily trust his opinion more than others. I take his opinions into account the same way I would anyone else's.

Like, M2K thinks Bowser is a beast, but when he plays as him, he gets bopped. He says it's because he doesn't really play PM, so he doesn't get the amount of practice he'd need. That's actually pretty true. If he did get that practice, he'd probably figure out why Bowser is only decent, but he doesn't. He's really good at the game, but he doesn't always know what he's talking about. Just like anyone else.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ok, so...

Attacking someone based on their play ability not only encourages ad hominem fallacies to be reinforced, you also spread a mindset that player skill adds power to an idea. This is strictly negative for us as a group. If you want to attack my player skill it's w/e because enough people have seen me play at this point, but you really shouldn't encourage other people to put up vids or stfu because you'll just stifle conversation and/or player entry within the community. It's just bad.

Sheik is amazing. I currently put her at 2nd after fox.

He couldn't have actually been attacking me in the way I think people interpreted (he could have tried but it doesn't make sense)
Technically, because I wasn't actually theory crafting in the most recent 'rant-post' I made (I'll post it again below), he could have been 'attacking me' for my tier-list, which IS theory-crafting, and that would just be silly of him.
He's talking about theory-crafters, so it would HAVE to be about my tier-list IF this was some form of 'attack' at all.

If it was about my rant-post, then it's simply ignorance. That post had no theory-crafting, it simply was bluntly what 'is' and nothing more to it. I described in some detail that people aren't paying attention to certain points that play factors in meta-game, it's not theory-craft to say the sun will rise after it sets, it just does. All I did was make a blunt statement of the situation, and explained it for those who don't get it.
If someone thinks it's theory-crafting, and attacks me for it, then that's reasonable, but no harm done.
I also don't mind for more direct reasons, as the stereotype of 'smart but not good at the game' doesn't apply to me in any form, and is quite the contrary. Hopefully those who it does apply to aren't taking it the wrong way anyway.

Nausicaa do you have vids of you playing? Ironically the majority of theory crafters never have vids of them playing or they are below average/mediocre so I just wanted to test the consistency in this statement lol.

This wasn't attacking me, he was sincerely asking a question.
The answer he stated he's looking for (whether it's true or not), is on the consistency of a stereotype.
I took it to a Private Message, (as I mentioned) and would like to keep it that way. He gets a vid, regardless of quality or relevance, whether he wants it for credentials or whatever, that's up to him, he asked so I delivered.

However, I won't post that credential/political crap to sway public opinion as it's destructive to discussion.
What I posted before his question was literally 100% something that just happens, no opinion or theory involved.
If stuff like that can't be taken at face value, and understood, then the LAST thing that will help people is having their thoughts on a comment skewed by merits.
*cough*

That's a bunch of bull****. Puff is better than Sheik overall cuz she's already slightly better than sheik in melee but she is also unchanged where as sheik has no more guaranteed down throw options making her worse. spacies are better too but lasers were nerfed now making their camping worse and shine is no longer invincible making their shinespike less deadly and 1 frame easier to Nair OOS if I decide to Nair before the shine instead of after it.

the ONLY reason I play sheik in PM is because ALL of my Melee skill transfers because she's basically the same, just worse.

I was going to say something to the contrary but jesus christ it's M2K. I'll take your word for it, and marvel from afar.

Even from a fairly intelligible poster, credentials hurt discussion.

I'd gladly discuss in depth what I posted about (it was related to EXACTLY what M2K is saying here, but in a lot more clarity and depth), because it simply makes sense and everyone would benefit from that insight. Simply having something clearly in an explainable form, so it's easier to know what they already 'know', is something that never goes to waste. NOT opinion on the matter, there was nothing about 'I think' in there, unlike M2K's comments, ever so slightly. But look at the difference in RESPONSE?!?!

One gets an 'attack' or 'back-round' check, even when it's simply an accurate statement of the situation at hand. (maybe because there's nothing to refute in the statements I made, and they contradict standard opinions of people, it hits a nerve or something in the readers... otherwise, if I ever say something and you actually think I'm being harmed by my own actions or spreading mis-information, explain it to me, I'm eager to learn just as well!) Meanwhile, statements about what a final-meta-game (or whatever) as being true are shot off, and shrugged off (Sheik is good bleh) because 'they have a back-round check'

If anyone wants my 'credentials' or see me play, they can ask, but it has never done any good to ANYONE in my many (MANY) years of coaching (yeah, coaching) Melee to top level players (world-class tournament winners) from around the world.
Hence public forums are best left anonymous, and Private Convos are where the real work gets done.

Ehem...

If the basic concept and application of this detailing is not fully understood, then how good characters are relative to each other (a list consisting of tiers) will not be understood, no matter how accurate or inaccurate the presented list (or true character tiers) may be in comparison to the readers perception of a tier list based on their own understanding.

Edit: Mild clarification, hope it helps. Freaking run-on sentences and stuff.






Was in response to this.

There's the post, follow it and read the quotes, as they're factors everyone should understand, not just concepts, but factors in conscious decision making that go even far beyond smash and meta-game analysis/prediction. Which is the only thing this thread is ever about until I step in and rant about something that's actually of value to a human being.

In other news, I posted 2 big articles/chapters (from OTHER PEOPLE) in Blogs, that I tend to repeat a lot of stuff similar to, and I'm sure everyone reading this could benefit from them.
Enjoy.

Things are just as they need to be, that is all.






EDIT: ON TOPIC
Regarding ROB
Italic = I have a hunch they're ever so slightly worse than the others in their tier.
() = Developing part of their game that plays a factor in my hunch.
[] = Change I would like to see the long-term results of for them in the future.

- ROB (effective aggressively-passive play in Neutral that can convert to a ToD or a process for it, overly reliant on precision to position tedious/risky tools with limits on what's universally rewarding)
[Somewhere from 10 to 20 degree up and down angling on Aerial Side-B > precision positioning that still takes the same commitment > requires repeated connections to gain reward, this is the core of his theme]

That's my input.
The entire thing he's pivoting on, as far as I can tell (context note > this is opinion here, my best theory-crafting woop < it's a tier list topic duh!), is how effective he can play aggressively-passive. Meaning, his ability to commit to aggression without over-committing. It's the biggest factor I ever experience or see with him in terms of where his meta-game will seemingly potentially go (context note > in all given light of it I've heard and seen, or experienced directly)

 

[Deleted member]

tbh it doesn't really have anything to do with you being the recipient, rather that it's just poor behavior for the community at large.

agree @ the coaching thing though. no shortage of private pow-wows here either.

 

[Deleted member]

edit lagged

 

[mudkyp]

Here's my rough prediction/estimate for 2.6b. I'm not an M2K/Hbox tier player, and I'm far from it, but here's what I would roughly group people into based on match-ups I've seen by the past few tournaments I've watched, as well as the input of a lot of you. None of these are in any particular order, and even the groups are approximate. Any one character I am placing into any tier could probably shift one tier up or down, but I don't think they would move any more than one tier in either direction. I feel I've got a pretty good grasp on what we're all looking at here, and I'm mostly going on general consensus and the results I've seen for tournaments and things. The game is still really young so I'm excited to see new things being discovered about certain characters. It's interesting to watch Lucas climb up the speculated tier list as well. More and more people are discussing him and his potential.

Dumpster Tier
Fox
Falco
Wario
Ivysaur

Ridiculously Good Tier
Peach
Sheik
Zamus
Wolf
Mario
Lucas
Bowser

Still Pretty Good Tier
Marth
Metaknight
Snake
Pit
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Ike
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Link
Luigi
Rob
Sonic
Zelda

Kind of Rough Around the Edges Tier
Charizard
Game and Watch
Ganondorf
Ness
Pikachu
Squirtle
Toon Link

Completely Abysmal Tier
King DeDeDe

 

[Nausicaa]

^I know it wasn't directed at me, (none of that was since it didn't apply to me from the beginning) and my comments weren't necessarily directed at any individuals either.
Though, given a comment referring to my post is what sparked the topic, and I understand the situation well enough to explain it clearly (without theory-crafting... lolz), it might as well have been my civic duty to do some detailing on it for all purposes.

I wouldn't consider it 'poor' behavior, but just simple ignorance. Once someone knows better, they know better! Simple as that, and it can happen in a blink. We're all on the same team, whether people want to be or not.


Edit: Harsh right here...

Completely Abysmal Tier
King DeDeDe

Abysmal? Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Deleted member]

real talk though sheik is pure brass in this game. she'd probably be the best if fox wasn't fox in this game.

 

[Professor Pro]

Attacking someone based on their play ability not only encourages ad hominem fallacies to be reinforced, you also spread a mindset that player skill adds power to an idea. This is strictly negative for us as a group. If you want to attack my player skill it's w/e because enough people have seen me play at this point, but you really shouldn't encourage other people to put up vids or stfu because you'll just stifle conversation and/or player entry within the community. It's just bad.

Nice try, but I didn't even say anything along the lines of 'vids or stfu', or attack him or 'if I find out your bad, your future points will be discredited'.....but yeah, take from it what you will lol.

 

[Deleted member]

specific to your example, you're right. i guess it's just something i've seen a lot of in here, at least enough to make note of it.

 

[GeZ]

Ok, so...



He couldn't have actually been attacking me in the way I think people interpreted (he could have tried but it doesn't make sense)
Technically, because I wasn't actually theory crafting in the most recent 'rant-post' I made (I'll post it again below), he could have been 'attacking me' for my tier-list, which IS theory-crafting, and that would just be silly of him.
He's talking about theory-crafters, so it would HAVE to be about my tier-list IF this was some form of 'attack' at all.

If it was about my rant-post, then it's simply ignorance. That post had no theory-crafting, it simply was bluntly what 'is' and nothing more to it. I described in some detail that people aren't paying attention to certain points that play factors in meta-game, it's not theory-craft to say the sun will rise after it sets, it just does. All I did was make a blunt statement of the situation, and explained it for those who don't get it.
If someone thinks it's theory-crafting, and attacks me for it, then that's reasonable, but no harm done.
I also don't mind for more direct reasons, as the stereotype of 'smart but not good at the game' doesn't apply to me in any form, and is quite the contrary. Hopefully those who it does apply to aren't taking it the wrong way anyway.


This wasn't attacking me, he was sincerely asking a question.
The answer he stated he's looking for (whether it's true or not), is on the consistency of a stereotype.
I took it to a Private Message, (as I mentioned) and would like to keep it that way. He gets a vid, regardless of quality or relevance, whether he wants it for credentials or whatever, that's up to him, he asked so I delivered.

However, I won't post that credential/political crap to sway public opinion as it's destructive to discussion.
What I posted before his question was literally 100% something that just happens, no opinion or theory involved.
If stuff like that can't be taken at face value, and understood, then the LAST thing that will help people is having their thoughts on a comment skewed by merits.
*cough*






Even from a fairly intelligible poster, credentials hurt discussion.

I'd gladly discuss in depth what I posted about (it was related to EXACTLY what M2K is saying here, but in a lot more clarity and depth), because it simply makes sense and everyone would benefit from that insight. Simply having something clearly in an explainable form, so it's easier to know what they already 'know', is something that never goes to waste. NOT opinion on the matter, there was nothing about 'I think' in there, unlike M2K's comments, ever so slightly. But look at the difference in RESPONSE?!?!

One gets an 'attack' or 'back-round' check, even when it's simply an accurate statement of the situation at hand. (maybe because there's nothing to refute in the statements I made, and they contradict standard opinions of people, it hits a nerve or something in the readers... otherwise, if I ever say something and you actually think I'm being harmed by my own actions or spreading mis-information, explain it to me, I'm eager to learn just as well!) Meanwhile, statements about what a final-meta-game (or whatever) as being true are shot off, and shrugged off (Sheik is good bleh) because 'they have a back-round check'

If anyone wants my 'credentials' or see me play, they can ask, but it has never done any good to ANYONE in my many (MANY) years of coaching (yeah, coaching) Melee to top level players (world-class tournament winners) from around the world.
Hence public forums are best left anonymous, and Private Convos are where the real work gets done.


There's the post, follow it and read the quotes, as they're factors everyone should understand, not just concepts, but factors in conscious decision making that go even far beyond smash and meta-game analysis/prediction. Which is the only thing this thread is ever about until I step in and rant about something that's actually of value to a human being.

In other news, I posted 2 big articles/chapters (from OTHER PEOPLE) in Blogs, that I tend to repeat a lot of stuff similar to, and I'm sure everyone reading this could benefit from them.
Enjoy.

Things are just as they need to be, that is all.






EDIT: ON TOPIC
Regarding ROB
Italic = I have a hunch they're ever so slightly worse than the others in their tier.
() = Developing part of their game that plays a factor in my hunch.
[] = Change I would like to see the long-term results of for them in the future.

- ROB (effective aggressively-passive play in Neutral that can convert to a ToD or a process for it, overly reliant on precision to position tedious/risky tools with limits on what's universally rewarding)
[Somewhere from 10 to 20 degree up and down angling on Aerial Side-B > precision positioning that still takes the same commitment > requires repeated connections to gain reward, this is the core of his theme]

That's my input.
The entire thing he's pivoting on, as far as I can tell (context note > this is opinion here, my best theory-crafting woop < it's a tier list topic duh!), is how effective he can play aggressively-passive. Meaning, his ability to commit to aggression without over-committing. It's the biggest factor I ever experience or see with him in terms of where his meta-game will seemingly potentially go (context note > in all given light of it I've heard and seen, or experienced directly)

I think that's fair. Merit doesn't necessitate validity or correctness, though I'd like to add as a point of reference that while I did ride the M2K bus AAAALLLL the way home on that post, I was also partly in agreement because what M2K said (the little brief bit that was factual and not touting) was something I had experienced and noticed from Melee Shiek to P:M Shiek, and I was interpreting his experience with Melee and the evidence I had found myself to be more so informative, as I wasn't well versed in the subject of that specific character (top tiers are toxic waste to me) and hadn't heard or seen any evidence to the contrary.

I thought M2K had more experience with P:M as I'm used to assuming top players have more grounded knowledge on the subject than the average players, what with Street Fighter 4's tier list changing drastically whenever a tourney player unlocks some "low tier" characters potential.

I suppose it was still pretty bad dickriding, so I'm glad I was at least caught and called out by the ever articulate Nausicaa.
I'll work on altering those views so that I can work through information based off the information's merit rather than it's posters.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Here's my rough prediction/estimate for 2.6b. I'm not an M2K/Hbox tier player, and I'm far from it, but here's what I would roughly group people into based on match-ups I've seen by the past few tournaments I've watched, as well as the input of a lot of you. None of these are in any particular order, and even the groups are approximate. Any one character I am placing into any tier could probably shift one tier up or down, but I don't think they would move any more than one tier in either direction. I feel I've got a pretty good grasp on what we're all looking at here, and I'm mostly going on general consensus and the results I've seen for tournaments and things. The game is still really young so I'm excited to see new things being discovered about certain characters. It's interesting to watch Lucas climb up the speculated tier list as well. More and more people are discussing him and his potential.

Dumpster Tier
Fox
Falco
Wario
Ivysaur

Ridiculously Good Tier
Peach
Sheik
Zamus
Wolf
Mario
Lucas
Bowser

Still Pretty Good Tier
Marth
Metaknight
Snake
Pit
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Ike
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Link
Luigi
Rob
Sonic
Zelda

Kind of Rough Around the Edges Tier
Charizard
Game and Watch
Ganondorf
Ness
Pikachu
Squirtle
Toon Link

Completely Abysmal Tier
King DeDeDe

Marth below ZSS, Peach, Lucas, Mario, and Boozer? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Also interesting placement for IVY. Honestly I don't think she's anywhere near the top she just has a very campy/wally style that is difficult to adapt to. The strengths she has are great but overall as a whole I think a lot of folks will change their mind about her viability. (No real response to pressure, and its grab is ass)

 

[Nausicaa]

specific to your example, you're right. i guess it's just something i've seen a lot of in here, at least enough to make note of it.

Jolteon (is my fave Pokemon) said almost your exact gtfo words once following some of Prof's comments on something similar (seems to be a common theme with many crowds that have bffs who are iconic in the mainstream meta-game), so yeah it's around, but everyone has their moments.
It was highly amusing at the time, and always is. This is an entertaining discussion.

Sounds like you could use a little more faith in people, as you just pointed out. Don't let lessons go to waste. We're all learning, M2K or scrub alike. :D

I think that's fair. Merit doesn't necessitate validity or correctness, though I'd like to add as a point of reference that while I did ride the M2K bus AAAALLLL the way home on that post, I was also partly in agreement because what M2K said (the little brief bit that was factual and not touting) was something I had experienced and noticed from Melee Shiek to P:M Shiek, and I was interpreting his experience with Melee and the evidence I had found myself to be more so informative, as I wasn't well versed in the subject of that specific character (top tiers are toxic waste to me) and hadn't heard or seen any evidence to the contrary.

I thought M2K had more experience with P:M as I'm used to assuming top players have more grounded knowledge on the subject than the average players, what with Street Fighter 4's tier list changing drastically whenever a tourney player unlocks some "low tier" characters potential.

I suppose it was still pretty bad ****riding, so I'm glad I was at least caught and called out by the ever articulate Nausicaa.
I'll work on altering those views so that I can work through information based off the information's merit rather than it's posters.

It was valuable for the context of the points I ranted about. Everything from the way I saw that post IMMEDIATELY after posting a vid of myself on here, and seeing the counter-productive results repeat in the form of a PM from someone, and then actually putting the effort in to get it edited out and return it as a PM to Prof. Seriously, I almost **** up sometimes too, and you helped bring light to a situation for myself and (hopefully/more-so) others because of over-expressiveness of the internet.
Magical world I dare say!

In fact, it's likely too late, but guaranteed, for every stupidly articulate post I make, NOTHING compares to the stupid intensity of influence a 'personal' comment about one's self can be. Because of that, and the comments about myself to make a point for others in that last rant, guaranteed again, that someone (if not MANY/all) will read what I say differently, SOMEHOW, for better or for worse.
Reputation is the greatest burden in a world of minds. This ain't no theory-crafting bull-crap either, something has to be the greatest burden, it just happens to be reputation.

Just like Dedede happens to be the worst character ever...

EDIT: ON TOPIC

This was my comment on Ivy when posting my list.

Ivy (both sides/ends of the off-stage game)

She's flexible, but in a very limited funnel, as given how much of her game ends up revolving around edges (either camping the opponent, or forcing them there), given the nature of her stage-control game out-side of ToD Solar Beam combos, this is going to increasingly become a more significant part of her game, until it makes or breaks her (I call it a girl so whatever) [context notes > in all given light of it I've heard and seen, or experienced directly]

 

[Oracle]

i theory crafted in melee for years and was total garbage at the game. theres a reason i don't do it anymore

 

[Oracle]

xenforo pls

 

[Burnsy]

I dont understand people putting Marth at mid tier. That character is so ****ing wack. Cheesiest neutral game and combos.

 

[Archangel]

wrong thread......

 

[Zwarm]

Squirtle is a lot better than you guys give him credit for.

 

[jayeldeee]

So Marth-low-tier-game still stands then, right?

 

[DMG]

super saiyan low