D
Deleted member
Guest
TL is really good guys... I swear
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
He swears he says.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Just because a character has multiple ways to close the distance, doesn't mean that they have good approach. This is generally because of how Squirtle fares against characters who play better at neutral than him. Squirtle's ground game is generally better than his air game, but he can't even take advantage of that, because:
1. His dash speed sucks.
2. He has probably the worst dash dance in the game because of how slow it is for the small distance he travels.
3. Has crappy range on any move he can do immediately do on the ground, with not much reward on hit either.
4. His 3 main ways of approaching outside of wavedashing (shell shift, moonwalk, side-B) are all lackluster or unreliable since they can lose to a lot of things.
5. All the previous problems make people more reliant wavedashing to get around or start offense, which gets really predictable really fast.
so he's a tiny, adorable shiek but not as good
pound the alarm, kink was right, we're all boned
D-tilt is quite fast (and even faster with shell shifting) and has a decent (and also deceiving) range. It also launches the opponent in the air which allows for further follow ups like fair, grab on certain opponents, shell shift, side-b, another d-tilt, and more. Jab is also a quick move that can be deceivingly fast with shell shifting, although admittedly it has poor range. It does allow for a few follow ups like jab to grab or d-tilt. SHFFL'd nairs aren't too bad either, especially since it has armor. Bubbles has a little of a slow start up, but it has a large hitbox and can be used to surprise with shell shift.
He does not having amazing options yes, but I think you're exaggerating it.
Don't forget nair.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
His wavedash speed does not suck. His shellshift speed does not suck. This point is kind of irrelevant when he can still cover the entire stage in half a second.
Slow, maybe. But if you think his dash dance is short, you're doing it wrong. Firstly because he can still cover plenty of ground if you use more of the initial dash animation (i.e. something closer to a fox trot). Secondly because he can easily incorporate shellshift into his dd game (and therefore is not bound by his initial dash range like many other characters are).
I agree about his range being crappy, and that's probably his biggest weakness (and don't get me wrong, Squirtle definitely has weaknesses--I'm not trying to argue for S tier or anything). However, his mobility helps him circumvent that weakness, and he does get some reward on hit. Grab, bubble, and withdraw all set up for tech chases; d-tilt has decent range and sets up for u-air combos.
That's a vague and bizarre assertion to make.
Tell that to melee ICs. Squirtle's movement is incredible, and I find it really weird that you're trying to spin it as some sort of Achilles' heel. Shellshift and wd back are both really good for baiting approaches. He has more trouble approaching camping opponents, but he has enough weird momentum tricks that I don't think there's any reliable way to keep him out. Imagine you shellshift backwards and jump towards them (which covers a large portion of the stage in very little time). Assume they are on the ground; now you have two potent options. You can use withdraw to launch yourself toward them, which is relatively safe on shield and beats dash dance away. Or, you can turnaround bubble (with reverse momentum), which is also relatively safe on shield and outranges a lot of moves they might try to use to intercept withdraw. I know this is a pretty specific example, but hopefully it helps highlight what I mean when I say Squirtle's approach options are not so limited or predictable. His fast, unpredictable ground movement combined with ability to quickly advance or retreat midair give him a lot of options that are not all immediately apparent.
I think he could probably do with some minor buffs (slightly decreased startup lag and slightly increased range or damage on a few particular moves), but most people are underestimating him this time around. And this is coming from someone who vehemently believed he was the worst character in the game in 2.5.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Changes to Squirtle in 2.6 helped to make the character much better at converting grounded moves into combos. What's more, I believe that drastic buffs to shellshift's momentum actually makes this a very strong movement option (that used to be arguably nonviable), but it still doesn't get as much attention as it deserves.
SpaceJello
Smash Apprentice
so what are your guys view's on ness?
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I thought for a long time that Ness was underrated but I'm beginning to rethink that position. I think he might be in the bottom 5 right now. If anyone is going to change that perception it will probably be SinisterB or Calabrel, who continue to push the technical limitations of the character.
Ness should be a low tier character.
Why?
Because it's Smash tradition.
Why?
Because it's Smash tradition.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I cannot fathom this mentality
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
Guys i dont think it's been addressed that wario can cancel ALL of his taunts. Maybe that's why he's doing so well.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Be that as that may, a lot of players seriously think this...
Well, I for one recognize the fact that no matter what we do to balance this game there will be characters who are worse than others. So relatively speaking there will be a low tier.
I would find it humorous if Ness was such a character though, even if only for the sake of that joke.
I would find it humorous if Ness was such a character though, even if only for the sake of that joke.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
I swear if you were just talking about ledge cancels. I ****ing booted up M because I was hyped.
Best footstool user
Jiggs like mobility
The man kills stuff with Fart, Side B, or ez mode edge guards
Has a passable ground game
One of the scarier characters for abusing poor DI (also has one of the hardest movesets to plan DI for in general because of his quick mixups)
Bite eats shields
Most of his moves have a use
Great Weight and Decent recovery if you can get an upwards path
Decent CC options
The stuff that Wario doesn't have, is what stops him from being borken tiered.
Wario's been considered good generally since the 2.5 buffs. Although chars like Sonic had more people watching, Reflex has been hard to ignore. People that didn't see him as good tended to only play with their core group of friends, or never watched Reflex Dair to Footstool, and vice verse, 3 times in a row lol (although there are/were also some decent Wario mains around too, just Reflex the most obvious dominant example). It's pretty evident from 2.5 onward that he's a decent little janky man... I guess people that really couldn't stand his range issues were never going to see him as that good.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
Wario's really good.
Just not even close to arguably best character in the gmae.
Just not even close to arguably best character in the gmae.
Vashimus
Smash Master
The prophecy must be fulfilled.
Bryonato
Green Hat
While Sinister has kind of drifted away from the game again Calabrel is doing some really exciting things with Ness. I want to call him the best at the character at the moment but I haven't seen him in tournament yet and friendlies can only tell you so much.
While I don't think Ness is bottom 5 he's certainly on the lower side of the list.
While I don't think Ness is bottom 5 he's certainly on the lower side of the list.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
awestin is the best ness
Bryonato
Green Hat
Agree to disagree
D
Deleted member
Guest
awestin is very obviously the best ness.
i'm not so sure i'd take ness out of contention for bottom 5 though.
i'm not so sure i'd take ness out of contention for bottom 5 though.
Leffen NEVER took a set of me in PM. Not even at my first tournament with a few hours experience compared to when he had played the game way more.
So Im not sure what you get second set from since I have never been in a second set of GF since I have never dropped a set in PM
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Now THAT'S what I called "bodied".
Here's a question though, Armada. How do you feel current Pit is in terms of strength? I guess you could compare him to other characters, but I am pretty sure you don't study the game or really play it outside of tournaments. But if you could give an estimate, what would it be?
Yeah, like you pointed out it is a bit hard since I don't play the game so much or even tried all chars in like 5 matches.
But from the information I have so far Im sure Pit will be in the top 8 at least.
Not sure if you wanted me to include more information or something. But if that's necessary make sure to tell me and I will try give more details
But from the information I have so far Im sure Pit will be in the top 8 at least.
Not sure if you wanted me to include more information or something. But if that's necessary make sure to tell me and I will try give more details
More details are always appreciated, especially from an expert player like you.
dearest armada:
keep making oro feel bad by not letting the europe ZSS player ever win
<3
keep making oro feel bad by not letting the europe ZSS player ever win
<3
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Hm... I guess you can just give an analysis of the character for us. Things you think are cool and interesting, things that you think are dumb about him. Strong attributes, weak attributes and strategies and stuff. You might have found some non-standard uses for things that maybe some of the other Pit players haven't explored yet. Just kinda... talk about him, I guess?
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
How do you feel about the Pit changes in 2.6 regarding Arrows? I can't find anymore new/recent P:M footage of you
