Tier List Speculation

[Professor Pro]

For the people who have in Snake top 8, may I ask what makes you think he is top 8 material?

 

[Strong Badam]

because he's snake

 

[Plum]

It's not even close.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm kind of surprised to hear people say Wario is top 5 material. I think he's really good and all, definitely in the top 10, but I dunno about top 5. Certainly not #1.

 

[Jolteon]

Sheik is a pretty good character.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Sheik is not only a beast of a character, but she's probably the easiest to pick up and do well with, even if you're new to the game. There's not very much tech skill involved in playing her. Getting better with Sheik doesn't really require you to play as her a lot, you just need to get better at the game.

 

[DMG]

I'm not too surprised to hear Wario top 5, with how well Reflex shows off the character. You take that, the buffs he has received, and Ike Sanic Lucuria nerfs, and it's not too hard to imagine.

Then you have men fools jackasses good guys like Strong Bad who pick Wario and make you feel *really* bad at the game. If Shrek is God, Wario must be his Disciple.

Apparently though, Mario just grabs everyone and death spreads around like a virus once he's picked.

 

[Plum]

how are stop mario approach?

 

[DMG]

Physically confirm a controller is in your hand

Visually confirm that you are playing Smash, and that there is a Mario

Then, and this is the tricky part, maneuver your character away from this renegade Mario fellow

 

[HMWii22]

Since we were discussing Zelda a page or two ago, I have a question.

How do I not get zero-to-death'd when playing spacies against Zelda? I tend to just get chaingrabbed to kill %, and then the grab sets up a fair/bair and that's curtains.

As a follow-up question, is there anyone who counters Zelda hard? I'm literally one matchup away from being unstoppable amongst my bad player friends.

 

[DMG]

Zelda has the capability to turn a grab into death on Spacies if she has the room. There's no way to avoid that, besides playing like such a poon that you're probably never gonna get grabbed very much.

What characters hard counter her? Idk about that, but the most obvious character that comes to mind is Marth easily. Marth is the most straight forward character for beating her IMO.

What you probably need is not a new character, but a new mindset for playing against her. You're gonna have to sit there and wait, a lot, and if you aren't used to that then you will probably have a really hard time. If you are playing D3 or Ganon then I feel sorry for ya and good luck beating that character.

 

[Plum]

Physically confirm a controller is in your hand

Visually confirm that you are playing Smash, and that there is a Mario

Then, and this is the tricky part, maneuver your character away from this renegade Mario fellow

Oooooooh. Yeah, that makes sense. I thought I was supposed to LET his stubby limbs hit me. Thanks DMG. Don't know what I would do without you,

 

[DMG]

Don't worry that's a common mistake. I mean it looks like FUN, he's spinning around and around, you just want to have a good time. You get drawn into the Dair, figure hey what's SDI? My head's dizzy, let me just never DJ out of the upcoming grab/utilt after he hits me. I prefer getting knocked around like a rag doll. But then you realize it's all a terrible fantasty, projected onto others by that evil terrible man.

 

[ShuFFroom]

So, is there a real solid tier list, like one made from actual tournament results? I want to see actual stats as to who really is #1 on the tier list.

 

[HMWii22]

Zelda has the capability to turn a grab into death on Spacies if she has the room. There's no way to avoid that, besides playing like such a poon that you're probably never gonna get grabbed very much.

Ah, the old "don't get grabbed". Always good advice. (No sarcasm, I used to main ICs in SSBM and that's what I would say to lesser players)

Marth

Ugh, I'd rather just lose.

What your friends probably need is not a new character, but a new mindset for playing against her. You're gonna have to sit there and wait, a lot, and if you aren't used to that then you will probably have a really hard time. If they are playing D3 or Ganon then I feel sorry for them and good luck to them beating that character.

Yeah I tend to play big fat assholes like DK and Dedede and she just ruins my **** every time. I will work on developing a better mindset.

 

[DMG]

Marth is the only EZ mode answer I can think of. Buddy of mine plays Zelda and he insists ZSS also manhandles her.

 

[Deleted member]

Literally the only new MU I see Sheik having a problems with is probably Wario. Every other MU is either even or in her favor.

as a sheik player, i think the MU is decently close but i wouldn't say that sheik has "problems" with wario. the worst MU i've had to deal with for sheik are the characters i don't understand well enough yet but i haven't seen any MU that i'd consider outright disadvantageous at this point.

 

[trash?]

For the people who have in Snake top 8, may I ask what makes you think he is top 8 material?

not implying reasons for other people, but taking a shot in the dark: he can lock down a huuuuge chunk of the cast, there's very few normals that aren't really good, + while "bad air mobility" is obviously a notable disadvantage, it's not like fast-falling where you can pinpoint a specific way to abuse that with a good amount of characters, because it mostly leads into "be floaty and mobile in the air". even moreso, the characters that can fit into that then need another requirement, where they cannot be too heavily affected by his control, and they have to be able to deal with lockdowns.

thus his problematic MUs (in my opinion, at least) end up being jigglypuff and not much else

 

[metroid1117]

So, is there a real solid tier list, like one made from actual tournament results? I want to see actual stats as to who really is #1 on the tier list.

Overswarm used to be in charge of compiling tournament data and presenting it in his Character Ranking List thread, but he lost interest in updating it. Since then, it doesn't seem like people have been collecting data and there are only select people who have seen success with particular characters (Eli and Strong Bad with DK, Reflex with Ivysaur, Strong Bad and Reflex with Wario, Sethlon with Marth, JCaesar with ROB, Professor Pro with Snake, etc.). In addition, PM hasn't many tournaments with the best players from each region in attendance. As such, it's hard to objectively tell which characters are better than others based on tournament results.

 

[DMG]

Snake trying to catch Jiggs sounds not fun. But at the same time, Jigglypuff having to approach him is not that easy. UPB! is the christ move bestowed on him. I vote we test taking out crawling for everyone, especially Sheik plz god. Crawling makes his body hard to hit unless you want to commit to an action even lower/not floaty and graceful.

That's an awkward character to pick IMO to display Snake's weaknesses. A better choice for displaying his flaws would be Marth imo (doesn't have to be as precise as Jiggs, doesn't mind his crawling, still juggles and edge guards Snake beast). Snake doesn't look like he has many MU's that you want to put the controller down for. Besides a very select few characters, it's possible to see his moveset futher utilized to deal with his issues to make things more evenish than they appear now. More optimal Upb usage, more grenade options, B reverse recovery stuff being used more, etc.

 

[trash?]

my plan with the tier list project intended to show off community opinion over time is going to be one in december (pre-apex) and one some time in early february (post-apex)

apex is going to be the first proper international P:M tournament, opinions are going to change when it happens

I have money on reflex winning and every tier list looking like hylian's by the time this blows over tbh

 

[Jolteon]

Puff is definitely free for Snake lol.

 

[DMG]

You have to play so well as Puff, there are so many frustrating aspects about him to deal with. You'll have to pray to god to get a rest opportunity too: **** won't happen.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Cause your Snake is scary

 

[Nausicaa]

*Universal obvious captains*
Hanging out in this thread...
Going in circles and circles!
'sheik has no problems with stuff' 'sheik is easy to do well with' 'sheik can deal with anything'

If a character like Sheik (the basis of what the character's meta-game revolves around ENTIRELY) did NOT make it seem like had the potential to be a 'Top Tier' character almost immediately, and ALWAYS, then that character (this example : Sheik) wouldn't be balanced very well, and would likely be leaning on the weak side.
She better be universally good, that's kind of her thing. Not breaking anything, but on the edge of beastly in a lot.

Refer to this again.

This Sheik meta-game talk is being oversimplified into 2003 details.
Read this for clarity.

This applies to Marth/Peach as well, for different reasons. Marth will STILL DD Grab, regardless of match-up, and it will work. Peach will STILL be a fortress of mixed tools, hit-boxes, and diversity, regardless of match-up, and it will work. Jiggs WILL be a spaceship, but this is something that's greatly affected by improvements in other areas, given her spaceship niche ACTUALLY REQUIRES better mobility and range on her part over the opponent.

DD Grab? Marth can do that, regardless of opponents. Fortress of diversity? Peach has the tools for it all, so she's good too.
Both of these traits aren't going to be nullified by a few specifics or general changes. OTHERS have to play in a way that will deal with THEM. Peach can adjust to do whatever she wants, and Marth will always DD Grab, other characters need to keep up with these. Jiggs is limited since she has to play to her opponents, but is LINEAR in the way she does it.
Jiggs may be hurt.
Peach, Marth, and Sheik, are not.
So stop being silly.

Dedede is more linear though...
Screw Dedede.

 

[Archangel]

Snake trying to catch Jiggs sounds not fun. But at the same time, Jigglypuff having to approach him is not that easy. UPB! is the christ move bestowed on him. I vote we test taking out crawling for everyone, especially Sheik plz god. Crawling makes his body hard to hit unless you want to commit to an action even lower/not floaty and graceful.

That's an awkward character to pick IMO to display Snake's weaknesses. A better choice for displaying his flaws would be Marth imo (doesn't have to be as precise as Jiggs, doesn't mind his crawling, still juggles and edge guards Snake beast). Snake doesn't look like he has many MU's that you want to put the controller down for. Besides a very select few characters, it's possible to see his moveset futher utilized to deal with his issues to make things more evenish than they appear now. More optimal Upb usage, more grenade options, B reverse recovery stuff being used more, etc.

As a Marth Main in melee I must say If I fought professor pro in tournament...I'd rather use Marth than Pit. Not that I don't think Pit can win the Snake Match but I feel Marth kills Snake alot easier as crazy as it sounds. Against so so snakes I can just combo-UpB and it's GG you suck snake. Against Better snakes it's a campy camp fest but my arrows stun snake. His projectiles are BOOM goodbye Pit. Ken Combo's all day on Snake. His sword actualy slices through Snake's up-b and still spikes him. You can just TRY to spike Snake most of the time when he's off stage and it works 3/4 times even on good players because Snake's limited mobility.

That aside there aren't that many spikes in the game with the kind of range of marth's swords. DMG and I have differences in other but I he's said it about as good as anyone. Without the Brawl techs (B-reverse or AGT's for example) I wouldn't rate snake top 8. His limited mobility is mostly covered by his ability to use explosives to cover his weakness as well as his Up-b's electrical wall it kind of nullifies his major stand out weakness.

I'm not too surprised to hear Wario top 5, with how well Reflex shows off the character. You take that, the buffs he has received, and Ike Sanic Lucuria nerfs, and it's not too hard to imagine.

Reflex IMPO does better these days with Ivy. In fact, I think Ivy beats Wario should they fight it out. Me, Armada, pretty much every Pit player feels like Wario does terribly vs Pits who know the MU/have a smash IQ like Armada. It took me months to figure out the Wario MU. Took Armada 5 minutes..whatever. Anyways point is Wario isn't exactly a free win on alot of the cast by any stretch of the imagination but he's very solid against everybody who doesn't outrange, out speed, or projectile spam the crap out of him. You need at least 2 of 3 to handle Wario but there aren't many in the game that have all 3...luckily.

Apparently though, Mario just grabs everyone and death spreads around like a virus once he's picked

I miss the multi-quote function...I wish it would come back.

anyway, PrivateJoker-Brown did a very good job of explaining sheik. Ironically I'll end up referring to his post with a few changes.

Mario is not only a beast of a character, but he's probably the easiest to pick up and do well with, even if you're new to the game. There's not very much tech skill involved in playing him. Getting better with Mario doesn't really require you to play as him a lot, you just need to get better at the game.

It's a the difference is this is a relatively new way of describing Mario were as she's been described this way since 2002.

Players that have enjoyed success with Mario since 2.1 are Shroomed, Green Mario, Mango, Dj Nintendo, Mew2king, Wobbles, Hungrybox, Boss, Axe, Mr.M, Archangel, GM171, Strong_Bad, Kola, JCeaser, Eagle, and *insert anyone I can't think of atm*.

Point being as of late Mario has become one of those characters you see in top 5 in many regions from many players at varying levels because he's just all around very good now.

 

[Hylian]

Reflex does fine with both Wario and Ivy. I personally have a much harder time against his Ivy than I do his Wario, but I think that is a match-up thing.

 

[Juushichi]

For the people who have in Snake top 8, may I ask what makes you think he is top 8 material?

What I remember about playing Snake (w/ GnW so my opinion is a bit biased):

+His lockdown/space control on the ground is surprisingly good.
Snake has a pretty phenomenal grab control game in terms of his positioning (tech chasing, leading into traps, general positional advantage) CGs (plus and minus stickies) and just about all of his aerials hurt.
He's got a pretty solid answer, or at least it felt like a solid answer back then in Up-B OoS and his movement is already slick enough that he's hard to pull down at times.

+His weight.
Stage depending and probably character depending of course, but even after you uproot Snake (heh) he's pretty hard to actually get a KO on when you DI towards the high blastzones (basically Brawl Survival DI). Then you couple that with B-reversed Grenades and C4s to cover him landing on the stage, it's kinda difficult. Not many characters can afford to trade damage with Snake as he comes down and it takes a fair amount of patience in dealing with that.

I think he has the tools to deal with a fair amount of characters, lives for a very long time on most stages and has one of the best ways to confirm late stocks at early %s in the game. Hell, it might be the best in the game in stickies. Whiffing a getup attack, missing a tech, platform reads... there are all kinds of sticky setups that are basically limited by the Snake player's technical ability. Even without that, he's got pretty decent ways to confirm kills and I think his Punish game is pretty great too.

His edgeguard game is pretty surperb, as is his ledge trap game with minimal setup. I think there's a lot of potential with his grenade game (I made a post on it in the Snake boards, actually in 2.5). All around, I just think he has the tools to handle himself in every matchup... and do so pretty well.

He does seem like he might have some trouble in the neutral game and landing that first hit/getting that positional advantage, but he can snowball once he gets that better than a lot of characters, I think.

@ Archangel:
Also Zinoto.

 

[Scythe]

Reflex does fine with both Wario and Ivy. I personally have a much harder time against his Ivy than I do his Wario, but I think that is a match-up thing.

nope ivy is just absurd right now lol

 

[Nausicaa]

A lot of Snake talk is arbitrary around here (weaknesses/mobility/etc)

+His lockdown/space control on the ground is surprisingly good.

Basically this sums it up.
It's difficult to whack him away. He can simply run at the opponent, and he's in a position he likes to be. Up-B, Grab, etc, attacking the opponent is where he likes his NEUTRAL game to be, and for the most part, most characters like at least some more 'neutral' action in the neutral game. Snake doesn't need (or want to) hold distance, predict and pursuit, or even close gaps. Just has to charge in, and can cover himself best when doing so. At least he's somewhat on the slow end...

Refer to this post (this is a part of the post)

Zelda can't camp with Fireballs at any decent level of play. At least, she shouldn't be able to almost ever. It's not nearly good enough to give an advantage to her, and if anything is at best a way for her to get in. Like the way a Peach/Snake/etc take up space and have to remain aggressively passive, attacking at all times without giving the opponent room, but not over-extending in close quarters. Those characters don't camp, but use their 'campy-tools' to get AT the opponent. Zelda's should really do the same. Example: Samus can't camp in Melee, but pressures aggressively by establishing a presence from a 'campy' distance.
Stay on their face.

Shield is the best approach.
I'm sure people are familiar with Snake's Shield.

 

[Archangel]

@ Archangel: Also Zinoto.

Goddamn it! Knew I was forgetting someone. I just saw a set with him recently he's pretty good. Been in Finals a few times..etc.

nope ivy is just absurd right now lol

Ivy cover's Wario's only remaining weaknesses pretty well. Projectile spam - check. Range - Bair is 1000 miles.

 

[DMG]

He's got janky enough hitboxes and angles, that you're bound to catch someone. Literally something as silly as Upb cancelled immediately into Nair/Dair takes the opponent to Jank Town 101. Might poke their shield, stop their shield grab, or land on the ground and just hit them anyways because chances are they won't understand what the **** Snake is doing.

He looks like a Tuna flopping around half the time. You guys sure created a neurotic and twitchy character when it comes to his flailing aerial assaults. I'm all in favor of changing his Grounded Upb cancel timing so that there's more risk to it: Samus would love to stop her **** with a Dair or Bomb right in your grill

DOES ANYONE have a hitbox map of Snake's Upb? Move is ridiculous

 

[Archangel]

@DMG no I don't but I think it's about time you unveiled your own tier list. As well as everyone else who's been chatting here. It's a tier list speculation threat so...lets get on with the speculation!

 

[Nausicaa]

It's a tier list speculation threat so...

Oh sheeeeeeet
I thought this was the casual social thread the whole time!

Sheik is all around good and easy to pick up and do well with at a high level of play before any meta-game even needs to develop.
Snake and Zelda are campy.
Wario sucks, better give him MORE BUFFS!

It's a tier list THREATENING speculator! Watch your charts!

 

[DMG]

I am the warrior for the "tires don exits" cause

 

[Plum]

roy is as good as marth in melee

 

[Archangel]

I am the warrior for the "tires don exits" cause

Are you serious?

 

[DMG]

Don't ask questions like that if you REALLY don't know.

 

[Archangel]

I gotta believe you are trolling. Otherwise...I have to drop you on my respect tier list.

 

[Nausicaa]

Respect List Tier
S) Those who are taking steps on the path.
A+) Those who are not taking steps on the path.

The measurement of a sage is by one thing.

Dedede is not taking any steps on the path...

Edit: Heck yeah Google.