Tier List Speculation

[PrincessAzula]

I agree with you, DMG. Playing against a Nayru-happy, Din's spammy Zelda is no fun at all. Although I think she does have some great defensive attributes, I usually play Zelda a bit more offensively in P:M. (In Brawl, it was just ridiculous. You literally HAD to wait for someone to approach)

Zelda's grab rocks. Her throws rock. I use her grab much more than Nayru's Love.

 

[Plum]

I do. The stale ones from Summer of 2004, so stale and dry that the salt sprinkled on them is the biggest source of moisture. You bite down in agony, reminded "this is the terror of Zelda"

I can only imagine what you bring to inspire the terror that is Ivy.

 

[JOE!]

A bag of bad weed

 

[CyberZixx]

I actually don't mind play versus Zelda or Ivy. Puff is one of my favorite match ups. I try to slow the pace to my level anyway so I am okay keep it slow.

 

[Archangel]

Peach at 12? Really?
Diddy Kong at 18? Link better than both of these characters?

Oy vey.

If you don't have Peach and Sheik both at least top 5, I don't know what you guys are doing.

why? it's a pretty demanding statement without a reason? Peach isn't even top 5 in melee...she's #6...On more than 1 occasion I've seen a proficient peach lose to Bowser...formally an 80-20 MU. That's just 1 example of how things have got worse for peach. Sheik has got worse for obvious reasons. Remains to be a very good character but I wouldn't exactly say she's easy top 5. Not as of 2.6b anyways.

Peach top 5 debatable, it's hard to tell what some of her MU ratios really are against the new characters. I could imagine a top 5 with all 3 spacies + Sheik and Marth

possibly especially the 3 spacies part.

Well she's a slower character in a game with buffed range and mobility

+1

 

[DMG]

Peach being top 5 is less silly than Mario top 3 though. By like, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that much of a margin.

Jiggs is clearly seen to have dropped down quite a bit, so out of the Melee characters she would be roughly #5 if stuff were the same. I think best case scenario though she's like 6th, and that would be assuming she is clearly better than Wario Snake etc threats. I feel like her MU's are progressively more even and harder to demonstrate a solid advantage with her because she's remained relatively the same in an environment that has gotten faster, jankier, and with more range than before.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

it's honestly ridiculous that you think shiek is a worse character in PM than in melee. There's barely a difference.

 

[DMG]

Yeah, I don't agree with "She's worse for obv reasons" when the 1 thing that was nerfed was Dthrow, while at the same time she got buffs in other areas and decent buffs to her throw mixup game/Bthrow lameness.

MU wise? Sheik has been the character that was viewed as still doing good vs 2.1 Ike and Lucario and prior Sonic. If you're that good of a character, chances are you aren't gonna lose to the new ROB's and Lucas' of the game. Not even Snake or Wario seem to give her the business. She's hard to handle and that hasn't changed with her nerfs. PLZ keep her in top 5, es good idea.

 

[Nausicaa]

That's janky stuff. Set up fireball in some conspicuous location, "TIME TO APPROACH HER WITH MY UAIR" said the Fox, got grabbed and GG'd to death.

That's literally what I picture nearly everytime Fireball --> Grab stuff goes on.

Zelda should probably grab less unless she has the GG ready out of it like Uthrow to combo or Bthrow edgeguard, because her other responses cover her better. Like if we replaced 60% of B moments, with grabs instead, she would be boned a lot more imo. Stuff like pivot grab is underrated but she's fairly immobile and that's kind of awkward to toss into say a DD or random neutral situation.

I wasn't really meaning to refer to Fireball as the set-up for Grab, but more like (an immobile character) a Peach mixing Dashes (into attacks), Aerials, and Grabs, makes Grabs so efficient.
Zelda has the same mix having Dash > D-Smash/U-Smash/Up-B>WL>Attacks/Jab/etc, Aerials in many forms and uses, and Grabs, which in all these situations are completely functional.
Combos into Grabs are easy too, given things like U-Tilt, F-Tilt, and easy tech-chases off almost anything she does since she has solid knock-back on everything, and her Grab is pretty easy to chase with in terms of insuring it will connect.




Zelda can't camp with Fireballs at any decent level of play. At least, she shouldn't be able to almost ever. It's not nearly good enough to give an advantage to her, and if anything is at best a way for her to get in. Like the way a Peach/Snake/etc take up space and have to remain aggressively passive, attacking at all times without giving the opponent room, but not over-extending in close quarters. Those characters don't camp, but use their 'campy-tools' to get AT the opponent. Zelda's should really do the same. Example: Samus can't camp in Melee, but pressures aggressively by establishing a presence from a 'campy' distance.
Stay on their face.
Naryu is simply a tool for that, but it's by no means (at ALL) BNB competent Zelda play, no matter how much it stands out as such.



Everyone in the public masses still thinks ROB needs help? That's good to know, I feel it too, but does anyone view it differently?
Anyone who still thinks Wario, Snake, or Lucas, were 'bad' from 2.1 to now, should ask some questions. I haven't/don't understand how ROB can be on a level with them, but they're a lot easier to see it with. :/
AKA, they're good enough, but is ROB good enough?

Dedede... ugh

 

[PrincessAzula]

Stuff about Zelda

Spot on.

Nayru's should never be used in excess. It serves as a surprise reflector and I pretty much only use it when someone is right behind me (to get them in front).

 

[DMG]

Wario got buffs to roughly 80% of his kit. He wasn't that great in 2.1.

No seriously, in the patch notes take a note of how many attacks Wario has, and how many buffs he got in the process (I think he also got buffs in areas like dashing/how well he transfers momentum from ground to air, not too sure). Side B, Down B, B, Throws, Dash Grab, Nair, Uair, Ftilt, etc. He got highly polished and was made much more effective in his mixup game (the most significant improvements were better throw angles/bite mixup angles, and Side B grounded priority buff). I don't agree at all that he was super great in 2.1 and we missed it.

 

[Nausicaa]

Wario was still good.
On topic, was that 'tourney win' that Reflex had at Apex in 2.1, or 2.5? If 2.5, makes sense that that's what people would think, if 2.1... lol at this discussion?

I'm sure Wolf having a buff in the form of 'Knock-back momentum changed' and basically NOTHING else, was enough to make him go from 'meh' in 2.1, to 'good' in 2.5.
*Sarcastic example of how people miss... a LOT (AKA, still are)

Edit: Basically I'm just referring to how far-too-often we can easily overestimate how understanding we are of something.

 

[Deleted member]

actually i think it's best for zelda to stay grounded and play a tight DD game from neutral in both melee and this game, but especially this game since her dash and grabs are so much better. if you play zelda like camp > convert with a launcher (dash attack / upthrow) > stuff > kick she plays out much better.

all in my experience going from melee to pm

 

[trash?]

I should probably be looking into criticizing the tier list but honestly you responded to a criticism with

don't call it insane. Radical/Controversial makes more sense.

and my sides left me, only to journey into the void

the most radical tier list. so rad. radical liberalism ain't got S H I T on my opinions on videogames

 

[KayB]

why? it's a pretty demanding statement without a reason? Peach isn't even top 5 in melee...she's #6...On more than 1 occasion I've seen a proficient peach lose to Bowser...formally an 80-20 MU. That's just 1 example of how things have got worse for peach. Sheik has got worse for obvious reasons. Remains to be a very good character but I wouldn't exactly say she's easy top 5. Not as of 2.6b anyways.

Since when was the MU for Peach vs Bowser 80-20? Did I miss something?

Wario was still good.
On topic, was that 'tourney win' that Reflex had at Apex in 2.1, or 2.5? If 2.5, makes sense that that's what people would think, if 2.1... lol at this discussion?

Twas 2.5.

 

[DMG]

^^^

10Wariobuffs

There are decent arguments to be had for Wolf Snake Lucas and others being underrated and basically untouched. Wario really REALLY is not one of those characters if we're going as far back as 2.1

He got buffed and caressed by the smash overlords. How much help he needed, sure maybe he didn't need 80% of his kit buffed. But 2.1 Wario was not in the same league as the beast we know today.

Also comparatively, people like Ike were getting the nerfs too. So throw them down below him, and give him buffs, and now he's suddenly catapulted really high up.

 

[Vashimus]

Since when was the MU for Peach vs Bowser 80-20? Did I miss something?

We're obviously talking non-canon, silly KayB.

 

[Nausicaa]

actually i think it's best for zelda to stay grounded and play a tight DD game from neutral in both melee and this game, but especially this game since her dash and grabs are so much better. if you play zelda like camp > convert with a launcher (dash attack / upthrow) > stuff > kick she plays out much better.

all in my experience going from melee to pm

YES

Re-phrased, I like this version even better.

"It's best for most characters to stay grounded and play a tight Dash Dance game from a neutral in both Melee and Project: M, in almost all situations, and especially for most players, both developing and experienced, since it would make those who don't abuse it SO much better."

*Math*

Edit: Back-story.
I don't know why I'm still seeing Falco/ZSS/Wolf laser-for-the-sake-of-lasering...
Ness floating around trying to land PK-Fires...
'Top level' Marth vs Wario matches with flailing aerials...
DEATH KICK FIREBALL SPAMMING ZELDA'S
People having trouble approaching Ivy because they can't approach with Shield in the air (duh)...
And not abusing those sexy DD's, WD's, Pivots, etc, that every character has (except Yoshi because moving while using your Shield as a neutral tool sucks)

Seriously, stay grounded, fortress-it-up.

Ediedit: Did anyone ever mention that Melee(PM) is a campy game?
It's the DD/Shield/WD/Pivot/GROUND GAME that makes it seem so, not the other stuff.
Unless you're playing AS Jiggs... or Falco sometimes...

 

[Archangel]

Yeah, I don't agree with "She's worse for obv reasons" when the 1 thing that was nerfed was Dthrow, while at the same time she got buffs in other areas and decent buffs to her throw mixup game/Bthrow lameness.

MU wise? Sheik has been the character that was viewed as still doing good vs 2.1 Ike and Lucario and prior Sonic. If you're that good of a character, chances are you aren't gonna lose to the new ROB's and Lucas' of the game. Not even Snake or Wario seem to give her the business. She's hard to handle and that hasn't changed with her nerfs. PLZ keep her in top 5, es good idea.

Let me be more clear, 50-50 odds will never be as good as 100% odds especially when that 100% continues into more 100% via chain grab. Imagine if you will a game where Fox's nair had a 50-50 chance of not working or Falco's Laser's had a 50-50 chance of not working. Marth's sword range had a 50-50 chance of shortening. In other words...50-50 when it comes to something that was once 100% is a step down no matter how you slice it.

Sheik was still doing well vs 2.1 characters but so were ALL the vets. Most 2.1 tier list's top 8 were nearly identical to Melee's accept some had Sonic, Lucario, or Ike in them. Sheik did well against good sonics but the best sonic went undefeated vs sheik. Sheik did legitimately well against Ike and Lucario but all 3 characters were in their infancy stage in terms of development and more often towards the end of PM 2.1's lifespan sheiks stopped dominating as much and many actually started losing more often then they won. BUT that doesn't really prove much as we've already discussed PM's community is spotty and a character doing well or bad in a region doesn't prove as much.

Sheik's very slow slip away from the top 5 range has taken time and development. 5 characters have been added since 2.1. 2.1 characters returning characters have been improved since then(minus Sonic/Lucario). The new and once confusing characters have evolved and been developed to the point where they are catching the melee vets. What I'm saying is aside from the changes to sheik, Everybody has got better. Sheik, Peach, and Marth all remain very good characters but their designs are not on the same level as Fox/Falco. Fox and Falco seemingly can keep pace with the new challenges. They may have more seemingly 50-50 MU's to deal with and potential soft counters on the rise but the other 3 characters will naturally decline as other characters are buffed. Jigglypuff was the first to see problem. Dominating the air and having one of the best recoveries in the game was what uplifted her in Melee. The fact that most characters now can recover from magnifying glass range makes her less effective. On top of that she no longer dominates the air nor can she slow down the pace enough against alot of fast, spam heavy projectile wielding cast of PM. If she thought YLink was a problem then she's clearly in trouble.

All in all I made Marth and Sheik top 10 and I do believe they are easily top 10. Their overall moveset and design lends itself alot better to the improved cast of PM and the new comers than Peach and Puff's designs. To say they are easily top 10 isn't really a stretch. because it's easy to put them in top 10. However, as of 2.6b to say that Marth or Sheik can be easily put in top 5 is something I don't really agree with. In fact, the only people who are easy to put in top 5 are fox and falco. Everything else is debatable and somethings are much more debatable than others. For example, 1 could say Wario, Wolf, Lucas, Pit, Mario, Snake...etc are EASILY top 5. I even put some of them in my top 5 but I didn't do it EASILY. Doing top 5 is extremely difficult because of how many good and increasingly improving the cast is as a whole. when 3.0 comes out...who knows, especially if they decide to hit fox/falco with the nerf bat and make them as bad as Sonic and Lucario...who knows.

@KayB: Since when was the MU for Peach vs Bowser 80-20? Did I miss something?

Perhaps an exaggeration but the point is it was bad. "Peach may be bowser's worst MU" DJNintendo

that MU is still a challenge for bowser but from what I've seen since 2.1 it's more than doable...I don't like to be one of those RESULTS! guys but so far it appears to go either way. but I think Armada's Peach in a PM setting would beat every bowser. but bowsers super duper armor makes alot of match-ups easier than they should be.

 

[Deleted member]

I just find it odd that Zelda is an admittedly unpopular character, and yet so many people claim with such certainty that she's boring and obnoxious and sucks the fun out of the game. Uh...who are these competent Zelda mains you've played against that have provided you with enough experience to formulate such an opinion? That one friend of yours who occasionally picks her and spams Din's and Nayru's?

 

[Deleted member]

ryoko

i dashdance camped him with marth and it just didn't do anything lol

 

[Nausicaa]

I HAVEN'T LEARNED TO NOT GET MINDLESSLY BAITED (BY BOTH ME AND MY OPPONENT) INTO NARYU'S LOVE YET SO SHE'S STUPID STILL

 

[KayB]

that MU is still a challenge for bowser but from what I've seen since 2.1 it's more than doable...I don't like to be one of those RESULTS! guys but so far it appears to go either way. but I think Armada's Peach in a PM setting would beat every bowser. but bowsers super duper armor makes alot of match-ups easier than they should be.

Bowser vs Peach has always been more than doable. In fact any MU that's not 80-20 is perfectly doable. Besides, I see a lot more capable Bowser's around more than I see high-level Peaches in PM. Super Armor is a huge buff for Bowser, but I don't necessarily think it makes all match ups super easy. I just feel that most people aren't used to dealing with Super Armor in high-level Smash play.

Let me be more clear, 50-50 odds will never be as good as 100% odds especially when that 100% continues into more 100% via chain grab. Imagine if you will a game where Fox's nair had a 50-50 chance of not working or Falco's Laser's had a 50-50 chance of not working. Marth's sword range had a 50-50 chance of shortening. In other words...50-50 when it comes to something that was once 100% is a step down no matter how you slice it.

Sheik was still doing well vs 2.1 characters but so were ALL the vets. Most 2.1 tier list's top 8 were nearly identical to Melee's accept some had Sonic, Lucario, or Ike in them. Sheik did well against good sonics but the best sonic went undefeated vs sheik. Sheik did legitimately well against Ike and Lucario but all 3 characters were in their infancy stage in terms of development and more often towards the end of PM 2.1's lifespan sheiks stopped dominating as much and many actually started losing more often then they won. BUT that doesn't really prove much as we've already discussed PM's community is spotty and a character doing well or bad in a region doesn't prove as much.

Sheik's very slow slip away from the top 5 range has taken time and development. 5 characters have been added since 2.1. 2.1 characters returning characters have been improved since then(minus Sonic/Lucario). The new and once confusing characters have evolved and been developed to the point where they are catching the melee vets. What I'm saying is aside from the changes to sheik, Everybody has got better. Sheik, Peach, and Marth all remain very good characters but their designs are not on the same level as Fox/Falco. Fox and Falco seemingly can keep pace with the new challenges. They may have more seemingly 50-50 MU's to deal with and potential soft counters on the rise but the other 3 characters will naturally decline as other characters are buffed. Jigglypuff was the first to see problem. Dominating the air and having one of the best recoveries in the game was what uplifted her in Melee. The fact that most characters now can recover from magnifying glass range makes her less effective. On top of that she no longer dominates the air nor can she slow down the pace enough against alot of fast, spam heavy projectile wielding cast of PM. If she thought YLink was a problem then she's clearly in trouble.

All in all I made Marth and Sheik top 10 and I do believe they are easily top 10. Their overall moveset and design lends itself alot better to the improved cast of PM and the new comers than Peach and Puff's designs. To say they are easily top 10 isn't really a stretch. because it's easy to put them in top 10. However, as of 2.6b to say that Marth or Sheik can be easily put in top 5 is something I don't really agree with. In fact, the only people who are easy to put in top 5 are fox and falco. Everything else is debatable and somethings are much more debatable than others. For example, 1 could say Wario, Wolf, Lucas, Pit, Mario, Snake...etc are EASILY top 5. I even put some of them in my top 5 but I didn't do it EASILY. Doing top 5 is extremely difficult because of how many good and increasingly improving the cast is as a whole. when 3.0 comes out...who knows, especially if they decide to hit fox/falco with the nerf bat and make them as bad as Sonic and Lucario...who knows..

I just want to say that none of these are very convincing reasons as to why Sheik is not top tier. Not only are some of these inaccurate, but simply because a character doesn't "dominate" a certain field that she used to does not mean she is no longer capable of being a very good character at that area. A good Sheik player can adapt to different MUs, even though yes, they may be worse, but many MUs are still in her favor while you make them sound like they aren't Her MU spread is by far the most balanced out of the majority of the cast, and I feel that because your using the logic that she's a little worse here and there she's somehow incapable of winning many MUs. I'm still not hearing which characters are better than Sheik and why. We're at a point where Sheik is generally considered to be better than Mario; whether or not you agree with this I can't see you saying that Mario is that much better. With that in mind, you still put Mario in a whopping third, so I don't see why you think Sheik is that much worse now. It feels your basing your logic too much on the previous placings on the Melee tier list, namely the fact that Mario was mid-tier before and Sheik was top-tier. You exaggerate the rise or drop (or both) of either of the characters

 

[DMG]

You shouldn't factor in future stuff like "Well eventually Ganon/x characters will be buffed over Sheik". We're talking about characters as is in this patch. As it stands, Sheik is balls to the wall good. Nobody contests that Jiggs is doing worse and was one of the most affected Melee vets. Some of that IMO should also apply to Peach since she's a slower character as well.

You're right that there are a lot of strong characters that are hard to place, BUT it would be a mistake to assume that she's gonna lose her luster because "well eventually Snake players will be so good/get buffed further that she'll fall behind". She's not only staying ahead, but she's keeping people DOWN from being better. She screams top 5 so damn hard right now.

 

[Nausicaa]

I just feel that most people aren't used to dealing with Super Armor in high-level Smash play.

It's like Grab is good or something...
More importantly...
It's like some characters have to develop by means of finding holes in the game-play of other characters...
So naturally the character's covering those holes will be a step ahead for a long tie/all the time/since they have to develop ways to cover the holes before others can know what those covers are...
It's like meta-game or something.
*coughFalcowillalwaysbefirstcough*

Peach since she's a slower character as well.

"well eventually Snake players will be so good/get buffed further that she'll fall behind"

Snake is slow too...

By this logic, Dedede must be the worst in the game. Glad you agree!
haha

Sheik may scream top 5 to you now, but it has to be somebody, and it won't last. Don't be so stern on you IMO stuff. To say Sheik is top 5, and not Peach, with any form of bluntness in context, is silly and naive.
Just figured that was worth mentioning, as this game is too flexible to limit your expressive perspective that way when it comes to discussions, hopefully that makes sense to you. Complicated wording. haha






SUPERLATEEDIT

I think this Sheik stuff is oversimplified into 2003 meta-game talk.

Sheik is a very difficult character to play at a top level (tedious/fragile/position, precision, and decision strained). Though before this level of play (flushed meta-game included, otherwise it wouldn't be top level play and only temporary phase of development), she actually can lean a little into the dominating zone (slight freebies deep within the dynamics of her neutral game, not talking about combos and set-ups here, but the holes and pokes [methods] of working with the opponent efficiently enough to not get caught and clobbered).

No word on Sheik being 'good' should be taken with anything less than a bucket of salt (not just a grain of salt), until literally the meta-game of the entire roster is beginning to take some structural form (the kind of thing where people start throwing graphs around because of)

This is simply due to the nature of having many tools for any circumstance. These tools overlap into the 'functionality-zones' of other tools (circumstances where other tools would also be great) and this brings excessive dynamics and depth to her game-play. THIS CANNOT BE DEVELOPED UNTIL OTHERS ARE DONE.

Think of opposite to Falco. Falco is full of holes, he develops in a way to crush and choke people with hard hitboxes and spacing with means of covering these holes by smothering opponents in variations of coverage, none (literally nothing he does) of which are guaranteed (with few minor but still significant exceptions, ex: shine-grab).

He is on the extreme of this, Sheik leans in the other direction by nature. The same applies to any all all characters that imply weaving through holes (with either an abundance of tools [Fox] or a few [Falcon] regardless of style and flavor), compared to those who naturally gravitate towards covering holes (Falco, to a lesser extent, Jiggs). Always keep that in mind when it comes to tier-list discussion, which naturally includes heavy reliance on meta-game dynamic understanding. (possible reasoning with our current knowledge to conceptualize the truth of the matter)

/end detailing.

 

[Archangel]

You shouldn't factor in future stuff like "Well eventually Ganon/x characters will be buffed over Sheik". We're talking about characters as is in this patch. As it stands, Sheik is balls to the wall good. Nobody contests that Jiggs is doing worse and was one of the most affected Melee vets. Some of that IMO should also apply to Peach since she's a slower character as well.

You're right that there are a lot of strong characters that are hard to place, BUT it would be a mistake to assume that she's gonna lose her luster because "well eventually Snake players will be so good/get buffed further that she'll fall behind". She's not only staying ahead, but she's keeping people DOWN from being better. She screams top 5 so damn hard right now.

i'm playing Path of Exile atm so I don't got time to respond to everyone but it sounds like you and KayB are saying the same thing.

omg...this laptop! it erased EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**** IT! **** YOU BOTH! I'LL RESPOND LATER

*RAGES!*

 

[DMG]

Snake is slow too...

By this logic, Dedede must be the worst in the game. Glad you agree!
haha

Sheik may scream top 5 to you now, but it has to be somebody, and it won't last. Don't be so stern on you IMO stuff. To say Sheik is top 5, and not Peach, with any form of bluntness in context, is silly and naive.
Just figured that was worth mentioning, as this game is too flexible to limit your expressive perspective that way when it comes to discussions, hopefully that makes sense to you. Complicated wording. haha
.

It makes sense that slower (or more accurately less mobile) characters would take a hit in viability as more range and mobility and tricky neutral game options are added to the game. Jigglypuff has to deal with the intricacies of Lucas, Snake, Sonic, Pit, ROB, Ike, etc for range and movement options. GANON? Took a massive blow with how much better people can camp and move around. Peach is somewhat in a similar boat and I am interested to see how deeply she is impacted for not moving around that quickly. I don't think AGT fully makes up for the increasing gap, and while I don't necessarily think she gets mowed over by new characters, it's hard to think of her MU's being easier than what Sheik or Marth have to deal with.

Like if you asked people who won between Peach vs the following characters: Snake, Lucas, Ike, Pit, Wolf, buffed Ness, ZSS, Ivy, Zelda. The spread you would probably come up with is not bad, but I think it feels a lot more evenish than she would prefer. The kind of numbers you would probably envision doesn't scream out a bunch of 6:4 smooth sailing kind of stuff. Now, if I swap Peach with Sheik or Marth, those two characters feel like they have a much easier time regardless of specific MU related things BECAUSE of that mobility. Instead of having to know how to outplay the other guy, what AGT direction you need to toss at to get past their x wall or choice, how you might need to approach, whether you can punish certain rolling, etc you swap all of that out for the ability to run around real quick and get a firmer control on the match. Now sure, that's a simple way of looking at things, but it's not like they are incapable characters on their own. Sheik and Marth are not speed demons with sucky tools in other areas: otherwise it wouldn't matter much that they moved around fluidly. The ability to hopefully dictate things in a match, being backed up by a beyond solid character underneath, leads to amazing things. Whether her kit can match up with those 2, mobility completely aside, is up for debate. But toss in that extra factor, and imo it pushes them over top of her definitely.


Now sure, it's not impossible for Peach to be a better character than Sheik or Marth, or for Mario to somehow bribe his way to the top. The game still has a lot of growth on the part of other characters before you could definitively say. But gleaning off what we know were important, strong traits in Melee, and what are strong important traits in PM, it's a little hard to imagine a world where Sheik is under Mario, and Peach is still way up there. I do feel strongly about Sheik in top 5, because I cannot logically find a way for her not to be right now. Most reasonable projections of "growth" for other characters also taken into account, nothing screams hey watch out Sheik! You're gonna lose more MU's and other characters are going to be amazing and you'll have to settle for lower and lower placings. I just can't see that. With as inflated as people talk sometimes about x character of the week, maybe that's not a crazy idea for Sheik to drop and top tier be filled with DK/Diddy/MK/Pit/Lucas/crazy Yoshimain from the future.

 

[KayB]

i'm playing Path of Exile atm so I don't got time to respond to everyone but it sounds like you and KayB are saying the same thing.

No, no we're not.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik is definitely without a doubt top 5.

marth is not top 10 imo

 

[DMG]

nuuuuu

tiara's are good

 

[Plum]

How are tiaras supposed to compete with scouters?
Clearly outclassed.

 

[Hylian]

My top 5 that I've never told anyone:

1. Wario
2. Fox
3. Snake
4. Shiek
5. Falco

Characters I think are underrated: Ness, Lucario.

I've actually put a ton of thought into it, which is why I only have 5 and not a full list heh.

 

[Strong Badam]

lmfao
wow
the wario salt

 

[Archangel]

I don't think people are calculating how many characters are in this game. To have a good MU spread is going to be extremely difficult. Even Fox/Falco are starting to sweat a little. Marth/Sheik/Puff/Peach were wrapped in a blanked of security in melee. They were and somewhat still are the gatekeepers of the good characters. Next to spacies they are the best characters in the game. If you cut off Fox/Falco, banned them for example then Sheik would become the number 1 character so she is a pretty good character overall. All the Dthrow change really did in truth was make her go from being better than marth to about on par with him but they both have different better match-ups and match-ups that are challenging. So with that in consideration Marth and Sheik being on the same par I could've put a tie but I didn't want to so I gave Marth a slight and I mean VERY slight edge.

Now, If you load NTSC Melee's Tier lists you'll see that Marth is at the very top of A-tier. If sheik just to Marth's level than technically I have them in the same spot that they occupy in melee. I think alot of people look at the number next to the character and they through a ***** fit without realizing the meaning of said placing. Placing someone like Peach at 14th and really it's kinda a soft placement. She could be higher but there aren't any Armada's in PM playing peach so...looks bleak-ish. Still, She's in A-tier which is about as good a character as anyone In S but each is lacking something overly good. Sheik's Dthrow combined with her moveset auto-disabled a good chunk of the cast and even some of the A tiers in melee. Unfortunately losing that from what I see looking around at the PM community as of late it makes her more of a mortal and less of a God. The parts of Melee that aren't fully functional in this game also play a part. Everyone techs like captain Falcon, No lightshieldings. Then there are the differences in PM; Almost everyone has good/great recovery, There are a lot more viable floaty characters in PM than there are in Melee. Sheik's doesn't have spacie things to make her able to deal with almost everything, she doesn't have Marth's range to keep away floaty characters as much. It's been no secret how very good Puffs have done against sheik. In recent years characters like Pikachu, Peach, Doc, Yoshi, and Luigi have given sheik hell in Melee at a top level. with the buffs to the general cast and the nerfs to Sheik it's very unlikely that you'll even see many sheiks anymore. In fact you already don't see many since 2.6's release. Only occasionally a player like Vanz will reteat to sheik for safety in familiarity.

Again, I'm not trying to say sheik sucks! for god sake she's next to marth at the very top of A tier. I'll remind everyone that A-tiers have been the most dominant in Melee's history. Marth as a character has probably won more melee tournaments Fox/Falco combined. His dominance expanded across 2 different generations of competitive melee thus leading people to place Marth as high as being tied for 1st at one point. Jigglypuff terrorized the Melee scene directly after that. Dominating for over 2 years. After Mango stopped trying Hbox took up the torch and continued puff's dominance until the stage changes made puff alot more beatable but even now Hbox's lone high level representation still sees the character place top 3 consistently and occasionally getting 1st even with a less favorable ruleset and stage list. From there you have Peach who rose from the shadows from 2009-2010 and came to dominate even among some of the most vicious and brutal spacie players of all time. This also occurring during a time where the stage list and ruleset doesn't favor her as a character.

Before anyone goes Peach/Puff/Marth/Sheik are currently/arguably S-tier in Melee Let me just be honest. In Melee there are only 2 true S-tiers who could very well be double S-tier and that would be Fox and Falco. Sheik is kinda A+ S-, Truth be told the guarantees from grab really helps. I don't think a PAL sheik could beat Amsa, Hax, or Axe, at least not on a consistent level. In fact I think those 3 would come to get the better of the MU with their respective characters(Hax is kinda already doing that in NTSC). Jigglypuff is also very good but it's mostly her MU's against the top 3+peach and Falcon that make her that good. Combined with everyone else below a certain level sucking to much. She's got some historical random low tier troubles, Ylink, Pikachu, Yoshi, and Mewtwo have been known to beat or damn near beat very good puffs. Still, that Down-B is hard to ignore so it lands Puff pretty high up but she's much more beatable now in with the current stage list than she was in 2009 with the genesis 1 stage list. Marth is simply seeing the end result of evolution these days. After years of being around everyone's kinda figured him out and he's got very little room to grow minus the basics of the game. You can get better at spacing, dash-dancing, Powershielding, WD-OoS...etc. However his technical ceiling doesn't seem to lend him much more room for growth. Thus his lack of general success in recent years. Of all the very good characters in Melee Marth might be the weakest but that is misleading. He still only loses to very good/pretty good characters. Against average/Bad characters he might 1 stock or 2 stock them instead of 3 and 4 stock them. doesn't make him bad it just makes him closer to reasonable at a higher level.(this statement is being made with the exception of Fox/Falco on FD)

As for Sheik. It's still possible to place her as high as 5. My arguement was never against that. My argument is that you can't do it "easily" The only time I without a doubt place Sheik in the top 5 is when I consider both the highest known PM level of Sheik combined with the highest known level of PM Zelda. Then that character has a very good chance of placing high in a tournament setting considering they become much more difficult to handle should a person master both. Not to mention trying to counterpick someone who uses both at the highest known level. Still, I wanted to make a list without considering Sheilda for once.

Someone just attacked me earlier for placing Mario in top 3. Well someone just put Wario in 1st place. I don't think this list wasn't well thought out though. I just think the Wario salt is lingering. I'm bias because I've played against wario for a Long LONG LONG time now. I've got so use to him since 2.0 that I'm no longer bothered by his basic design, Dtilt, dsmash techchases, wafts, side-b/grab mixup from side-b. His Puff impersonations his Bair and fair while weaving around in the air...etc...etc. I'm use to all of it.

With that said, As of 1 month into 2.0 I thought Wario was the best character in the game LOL. I was getting WRECKED over and OVER by this goofy character and it pissed me off!

So, I can see how Hylian can come to that conclusion.

 

[Juushichi]

I am always reminded of how many good IASA frames Wario has all over the place coupled with really good traits like weight, air mobility... which translates into being able to put hitboxes all over the place... along with 2 pretty good kill moves in specials alone: 1 that has a thing that loses to shield and 3 (crouch: +11 on shield, jump, "spiritually" dash grab.) that beat it when I play a character such a Game and Watch and I think "man... what a good character".

Do I think that Wario is the best character in the game? Ehhhh, not so much. But the amount of cheese that this character is capable of is pretty high. I think Wario and Snake are the cream of the crop in terms of Brawl additions so far, though. I have them listed both in my personal Top 8. With Pit (maaybe Diddy Kong?) maybe just behind that.

Now am I of the opinion that Wario should be toned down a tad? (Hi CC Dtilt, Jab 1)

Why yes, yes I am.

 

[Archangel]

I am always reminded of how many good IASA frames Wario has all over the place coupled with really good traits like weight, air mobility... which translates into being able to put hitboxes all over the place... along with 2 pretty good kill moves in specials alone: 1 that has a thing that loses to shield and 3 (crouch: +11 on shield, jump, "spiritually" dash grab.) that beat it when I play a character such a Game and Watch and I think "man... what a good character".

Do I think that Wario is the best character in the game? Ehhhh, not so much. But the amount of cheese that this character is capable of is pretty high. I think Wario and Snake are the cream of the crop in terms of Brawl additions so far, though. I have them listed both in my personal Top 8. With Pit (maaybe Diddy Kong?) maybe just behind that.

Now am I of the opinion that Wario should be toned down a tad? (Hi CC Dtilt, Jab 1)

Why yes, yes I am.

I'm interested....what is your completed top 8? 10? 16? 34?

 

[KayB]

Stuff about Sheik

Literally the only new MU I see Sheik having a problems with is probably Wario. Every other MU is either even or in her favor.

 

[Juushichi]

8: fox, sheik, falco, wario, wolf, snake, peach, hm... pit? ordering 3-8 is hard. so is choosing an 8.
~ no order 9-16: ike, zero suit, mario, marth, diddy kong, donkey kong or link, meta knight, bowser


hm, idk it seems weird having categories like that now. it feels like there are:
A characters ~ 5 chars.
A-/B+ characters ~ 13-16
B/B- characters ~ a lot.
C+: maybe like gerudos, current sonic,

 

[Oracle]

Hylian I think its pretty clear wario is in the top five but better than spacies? Id like to hear the reasoning behind that

 

[Hylian]

lmfao
wow
the wario salt

No salt, I don't attach emotion to how I view characters >_>. If I did you would see DK as top 5 lmao. I don't mind playing against wario nearly as much as I mind playing against DK/Ivy for example.

I gave reasoning to why I think wario is the best in my huge post in the forced design thread. In general though I don't try to convince others of my opinions in regards to things like this, the build is too young for me to be really set in my opinion enough to put effort into convincing people.