Tier List Speculation

[Oro?!]

Wolf can Nair->DSmash at higher percents because of how nair's stun scaling works. Nair-> grab starts working at mid %s and Wolf has one of the best throw games in PM. This isn't including any of his other reliable kill moves like sideB, Fair, or Bair.

Wolf definitely combos better than Spacies. He will definitely be on par in the long run with the other spacies imo.

 

[The_Guide]

Maybe it's just because I'm coming from being more experienced with Brawl Luigi, since I main Doc in Melee obviously compared to Brawl I don't feel like Luigi has that much trouble getting in, his increased fireball range and wavedash make it pretty easy for him to approach with whatever he feels like on the ground but his aerial approach does kind of suck, I can agree with his recovery problems though, projectiles in general mess with him a lot more than they do with Mario, but in terms of someone trying to edgeguard them at close range I think Luigi has the advantage, especially if he saves his double jump for as long as he can.

@Gamedominator: I don't know, his aerials have pretty good priority, he's definitely more vulnerable in the air, but I don't think it's impossible for him to regain the upper hand, especially if he lands a surprise nair or fair.

James, consider this for a second. You listed Luigi's fireball and wavedash as good approaches. I have misgivings about the first part but lets assume that they're both true, so he has two good approaches. What else does he have?

Jumping in? If you even try to go into the air, they can just run up to you and shield; since Luigi's shffl takes so long, any aerial he throws out is easily punished. Its even easier if they have a move that outright beats him in the air.
Dashing? His Dash is slow, and very easy to react to.
The Tornado? It does move very fast, but it commits you to being VERY limited in your options while its active.

Unless I'm missing something, that's two viable approach options. Only two things that can create ambiguity in your neutral game. That's all your opponent really needs to worry about. Even if those two options happen to be very good, they are not enough to create the mix-ups that you need to get in.

 

[Rat]

yeah wolf's very strong.

The only match-up I've felt at a big disadvantage so far is Metaknight. (Damn u oro lol)

 

[Archangel]

Wario is really good. I think his lack of range and projectile is going to hurt him in the long run. Too many anti-floaty characters in this game that like to bully people who are floaty an lack a projectile. I think Reflex has found a good way of dealing with this aspect by picking up and mastering Ivysuar. Between the 2 of them they can handle a large portion of the cast.

 

[KayB]

yeah wolf's very strong.

The only match-up I've felt at a big disadvantage so far is Metaknight. (Damn u oro lol)

I'd love to see Oro's Metaknight.

 

[metroid1117]

I'd love to see Oro's Metaknight.

I think the most recent videos of his MK are from the grand finals of Nerd Rage, if you're interested.

 

[zman804]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihv7Sh1VRiM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0VyMkSMGjs

What do you guys think about Squirtle? I think he's actually really good and frustrating to fight against. Really mobile character.

 

[KayB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihv7Sh1VRiM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0VyMkSMGjs

What do you guys think about Squirtle? I think he's actually really good and frustrating to fight against. Really mobile character.

I don't know. As a Squirtle main, a lot of the time when I face someone it feels more like they don't know the character or match up rather than Squirtle just being a good character.

 

[DMG]

Wario and Ivysaur... Ivysaur?

Have I been out of the loop for a while or something?

Have you not seen the buffs to Ivysaur? She's like a better Zelda. Take everything annoying, ever, make it a plant, and give it Solarbeam.

People suck at utilizing ACs and things that require near instant aerials. A buffer of 1 frame lightens up that area to people in a good way (1 frame strict inputs are still very hard, like SH Bair WL with Squirtle [which not only requires you input the Bair the frame after leaving Jump Squat, but then to time the Air dodge the single frame you have before touching the ground], but then are doable at an almost viable consistency; that said though people apparently got consistent on doing SWD with Samus which is a 1 frame input).

SWD is relatively easy to do and the setup is easy to do. Not really comparable to frame perfect AC/waveland stuff.


Edit: Squirtle vs Ganon may literally be the worst MU you could showcase for Squirtle being annoying and strong, since someone like Ganon is bound to get janked up and be forced to play super hard and weird against small annoying characters to begin with. Show someone who's not prone to that having a hard time against Squirtle. Like Sheik. That kind of stuff would be impressive.

 

[Nemiak temp]

IVYSAURS BACK AIR - Better than Puff's 2013

 

[Plum]

Ivy definitely has the title of "Most annoying character NA"
It's just mentally draining to deal with her.

 

[\Apples]

Wario is really good. I think his lack of range and projectile is going to hurt him in the long run. Too many anti-floaty characters in this game that like to bully people who are floaty an lack a projectile. I think Reflex has found a good way of dealing with this aspect by picking up and mastering Ivysuar. Between the 2 of them they can handle a large portion of the cast.

Haha I didn't know Reflex picked up Ivy. I picked up Link for the same reason, actually.

 

[Oro?!]

MK covers ZSS' only flaws, aka spacies spacies and some more spacies. Still learning a lot of things about Fox/Falco, but Wolf gets beaten far worse by MK than those 2.

 

[trash?]

...? is the MK/spacie matchup that good?

I'm assuming it's the uair. uair juggles anyone and fast-fallers deal with it even worse

 

[Oro?!]

No, I don't even bother comboing them half the time. I just play the sheik/marth style game. Tech chase them, stuff approaches, throw them off, and make them beg for mercy.

 

[DMG]

^^^

It's not juggles for MK, but tech chases and edge guarding with better than average options for stuffing their approaches that makes those MU's decent. Starting a vertical juggle on them is really hard with good DI/CC, so don't bother too much with it.

 

[Oro?!]

Upsmash seems to be the best launcher against spacies at low %s and is actually decent oos. Despite that, I would rather nair or bair them off into a bad position than try to combo into shuttle loop/nado/downB for a kill.

 

[Archangel]

Metaknight vs spacies is starting to look better and better from where I'm sitting. Btw, anyone notice how good Metaknight's dash attack is?

@ Oro I agree that trying to combo-kill spacies isn't the optimal strategy but it's fun. Gimping them is cheap and less fun but so easy after awhile. At really low %'s I've got away with gimping with Uair - Bair/Fair.

 

[ELI-mination]

In my opinion, MK is a very good pick against spacies...
Until Fox up smashes you ridiculously fast at 70% out of nowhere and you die.
But other than that, its like fighting spacies with GnW... You can do awesome stuff and destroy them, gimp them easily, etc.
But then all that stupid stuff they have is what saps all the energy you have and hard work you put in.

 

[Plum]

Let's just be thankful that there's no momentum canceling in this game so that we don't have MK tanking his way up to 200%.
I would rather have BS kill moves than that...

 

[trash?]

I play MK because his combos are stupid-fun to do

and often suicidal, if I shuttle loop incorrectly

 

[ELI-mination]

I play MK because his combos are stupid-fun to do

and often suicidal, if I shuttle loop incorrectly

Nado to recover all day err' day

 

[Archangel]

In my opinion, MK is a very good pick against spacies...
Until Fox up smashes you ridiculously fast at 70% out of nowhere and you die.
But other than that, its like fighting spacies with GnW... You can do awesome stuff and destroy them, gimp them easily, etc.
But then all that stupid stuff they have is what saps all the energy you have and hard work you put in.

Are you THAT salty about Fox? I almost never see you post about anything other than I hate fox he's stupid nerf him .

I like nado to recover. I just think the fact that you can bounce off walls is kinda silly though....

 

[Oracle]

@plum- there actually is momentum cancelling in pm. A few moves like gw and zards down bs will cancel all of your momentum. The difference is that now you cant act out of stun, so its only relevant when you asdi into the ground and slide off with a bunch of momentum

 

[Scythe]

In my opinion, MK is a very good pick against spacies...
Until Fox up smashes you ridiculously fast at 70% out of nowhere and you die.
But other than that, its like fighting spacies with GnW... You can do awesome stuff and destroy them, gimp them easily, etc.
But then all that stupid stuff they have is what saps all the energy you have and hard work you put in.

except MK is a legit character

 

[Plum]

@plum- there actually is momentum cancelling in pm. A few moves like gw and zards down bs will cancel all of your momentum. The difference is that now you cant act out of stun, so its only relevant when you asdi into the ground and slide off with a bunch of momentum

Yeah, I knew about moves that cancel your momentum like G&W's bucket (Does DK's Up B still cancel momentum? Just curious now that I'm thinking about it).
I was specifically referring to the canceling out of hitstun.
I'm pretty sure that the momentum cancel AT in Brawl refers to specifically canceling your momentum out of hitstun, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[metroid1117]

Yeah, I knew about moves that cancel your momentum like G&W's bucket (Does DK's Up B still cancel momentum? Just curious now that I'm thinking about it).
I was specifically referring to the canceling out of hitstun.
I'm pretty sure that the momentum cancel AT in Brawl refers to specifically canceling your momentum out of hitstun, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, DK's up+B cancels momentum.

As for Brawl ATs, it's kinda interesting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, specific actions (airdodges, aerial attacks, and special attacks) can be performed at specific times during or out of hitstun. Special attacks, which would most commonly be used to cancel momentum, cannot be used during hitstun (either that, or it's really late into hitstun). Because of that, it's faster for most characters with a momentum-canceling move (like G&W's down+B) to use a quick aerial to cancel hitstun and then use their momentum-canceling special after the aerial than to just use their momentum-canceling special right out of hitstun.

 

[Oro?!]

MK looks at 12 years of metagame in the face, tells spacies "victory is my destiny. come, fight me." and goes even with them at worst from my experience with literally no effort put into the character. Sign me up Eli.

 

[ELI-mination]

MK looks at 12 years of metagame in the face, tells spacies "victory is my destiny. come, fight me." and goes even with them at worst from my experience with literally no effort put into the character. Sign me up Eli.

Yea, it took 12 years of metagame to develop a lot of spacies' tactics and stuff.
Didn't take any longer than 5 seconds to discover how to do a running up smash though.

 

[Archangel]

Yea, it took 12 years of metagame to develop a lot of spacies' tactics and stuff.
Didn't take any longer than 5 seconds to discover how to do a running up smash though.

Do you really lose to running Usmash?

 

[Kink-Link5]

No, I don't even bother comboing them half the time. I just play the sheik/marth style game. Tech chase them, stuff approaches, throw them off, and make them beg for mercy.

In other words, who needs combos when MK has range AND one of the best short hop fast falls in the game? MK basically plays like Sheik and Fox infused with a sword. And that's just great.

 

[Archangel]

In other words, who needs combos when MK has range AND one of the best short hop fast falls in the game? MK basically plays like Sheik and Fox infused with a sword. And that's just great.

Metaknight plays like fox and sheik and puff and marth(in tiny melee) is what you are saying

 

[Kink-Link5]

MK hardly plays anything like Jigglypuff. Much faster, much lower to the ground, and with a much better empty SHFF.

 

[Hylian]

Yea, it took 12 years of metagame to develop a lot of spacies' tactics and stuff.
Didn't take any longer than 5 seconds to discover how to do a running up smash though.

Only took 5 seconds to learn how to recognize/counter something like that as well .

 

[ELI-mination]

Only took 5 seconds to learn how to recognize/counter something like that as well .

Okay.
If we ever play, I will use Fox.
And we will count the number of running up smashes you get hit by.
You're not allowed to get hit by any by the way.

 

[Hylian]

Only matters if I lose .

(Anecdotal evidence the best amirite?)

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Okay.
If we ever play, I will use Fox.
And we will count the number of running up smashes you get hit by.
You're not allowed to get hit by any by the way.

Record it. Eli plz

 

[Oro?!]

Ok Eli, I get hit by upsmash I lose a stock, if you get thrown offstage lose your stock. Let's see who wins lol.

 

[Archangel]

MK hardly plays anything like Jigglypuff. Much faster, much lower to the ground, and with a much better empty SHFF.

i just meant the fat, short, roundness of them. Also the multiple jumps too. Everything else is no.

@ Eli, The Usmash spam is not to different from the Fsmash spam from Marth or the Dsmash spam from Peach. They can still hit, even at high levels of play you'll see bad stuff like this workout for good players. Still, you should be able to figure it out a way around it at some point. In other words it should be the single thing that decides the outcome of the set. Unless you are high/drunk in which case spamming **** is broken. I lost some games last night vs squirtle who only side-b'd.

 

[Giygacoal]

Ivysaur seems to be the Morridoom of this game. Downb + Sideb.

Heh, she should have a foot dive... and since she's quadrupedal, it'd be a Superman dive.