Tier List Speculation

[deadjames]

Not to discourage activity in this thread but it may help in making a tier list if you see some of the better people with certain characters and have a reasonably good understanding of them before making a tier list.

I completely agree, the thing is such resources are lacking for a great deal of the cast, especially in 2.6.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I don't really see why not? A person who goes back and forward with Hax but plays an overall better character could tie with silent wolf. I don't think that's too big of a stretch considering Hax tied with Silent Wolf. Leffen(another fox) also tied with Silent wolf. If given the right bracket I see no reason why he couldn't have.

Different styles of play do better vs different styles of play.

Examples: Mango's Puff goes life and death with Armada's peach. Hbox's Puff easily handles Armada's Peach. Hax usually beats Axe when they play(close). S2J has to my knowledge never taken a set vs Axe. Zhu Styles on SS and beats Darkrain pretty comfortably. lost his first set vs Falcon in years against S2J.


Basically my point is you've gotta take a closer look before deciding who's on what level. Everything is relative. If brackets are good/bad for someone lots of things could've changed. Imagine if Wobbles had to play vs Armada early in winners for example. I don't see him making top 2 if that happened. but again, Speculation is just that...and this is a speculation thread after supposedly about tier lists. Anyway....now that the break is over. Anyone got any new tier list?

playing people in your own region is much different than playing people around the world. learning one persons style and being able to adapt to whatever comes at you from at a national (different characters/styles) are two very different things. just saying

more on topic: wolf is as good as fox and falco. people have no idea lol

 

[DMG]

Idk about exactly as good. People are still really far from being perfect with Side B finish kills or utilizing other traits that would potentially keep him on par with the other two. Most Wolf videos, specifically in Neutral, give off the impression that he's basically an inferior Spacie.

 

[Archangel]

Also I'd tend to disagree with your argument about tournament settings, even in casual play Falcon is clearly a better character than Link, and I've always felt that tournaments have way too many variables involved to base tier lists on their results the biggest one being human error, that's not to say that I don't think they should be considered, but I feel like MUs are much more important to take into account than tournament results, I mean sometimes characters drop on tier lists simply because they aren't being used, and just because a character places well doesn't make them good it makes the player good, Ganon's place well in Brawl tourneys sometimes, but he still has no good MUs, the people who play him are just extremely talented at tech chasing and making reads.

You appear to have missed the point of the pointless comparison of character's individual attributes I find that remarkable considering the bold font &size made it easy but...whatever it's cool. I think you also misread what I said about Link and Falcon or at least misunderstood what I wrote. You've also implied that you have no idea what a tier list is or how they are made. A tier list doesn't reflect tournament results.

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It is an indicator of how each character is expected to perform, under tournament settings, in relation to the rest of the cast. Thus, tiers measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. Tier lists are common in fighting games as well as many other competitive games involving a large selection of characters.

The tier list does not say anything about any single match-up. For example, if two players are equally matched in skill, and one uses Mario and the other uses Luigi, the tier list alone can not be used to predict the outcome of the match accurately. This is because the tier list looks at a character's overall potential and effectiveness, and individual match-ups can be soft or hard counters that affect but do not entirely determine a character's ranking. For instance, in the aforementioned example, if the Mario vs Luigi match-up was tipped in Luigi's favor, but Luigi has overall worse match-ups compared to Mario's match-ups against every other character in the game, it would mean that Luigi beats Mario, but Luigi is still worse than Mario.

Even if you still feel deep down that Luigi's design should be better the fact is it's not. Even during the "Year of Luigi" a single Doc player outplaced 4 of the top Luigi's in the world in Melee. It's happened actually on a number of occasions. Mario is better in Project M than Doc, He's got all his strengths and all of Mario's strengths. The only downgrade would be that the fireballs do less damage than the pills. Still, Fireball's endlag has been cut in half. Combined with B-reverse Mario can use his fireballs to camp a lot safer. I'm not trying to imply that luigi is bad by any means. I just think it's hard to place him in S-tier, or even A-tier. B-tier is possible, Likely even and there isn't anything wrong with B-tier. The reason why I compare characters like Luigi, Falcon, Ganon,and Pikachu is because they were all buffed but the overall changes to the game and addition/altering of other characters keeps them relatively close together. essentially the world has moved around them. How they all do as a whole is still being investigated but for now none of these characters can be justifiably placed higher than they have been in melee in terms of tiers.

@Silent Wolf: You are right in that respect I do agree. In fact, when you throw that in the comparison between You, DJN, Oracle, and Hammer time becomes more...appropriate.

Hammertime - Silentwolf comparison = Both extremely flashy and technical, beat very good players(you don't accidentally put Mango in losers, you don't accidentally get to grand finals and take sets from Weon-X and do good against players like M2K it's just...it doesn't happen by accident. Silent Wolf as we all know how well he's done lately in some of the biggest tournaments ever.)

Oracle - DJ Nintendo = Amazing players in their own right, Both have shown the ability to adapt, adjust and go toe to toe with the best players in their region. They both also show the same mental understanding of the game, allowing them to play multiple characters at a high level. They don't dominate matches with their technical ability but their style seems to be more laid back, Studying the player and trying to find a way to out smart them and out play them without pressing 2039483092839048 buttons per minute. Neither have shared an international level of success just yet.

Only difference is Project M is new and Hammertime/Oracle might not be as established as the melee vets but in a few years should both continue their succes and assuming PM grows as a whole I can't wait to see how things turn out.

On the subject of Wolf I've began placing him in S-tier myself but I'm not convinced he's on even terms with Fox/Falco just yet. His Nair isn't as good, his Bair isn't as good, His gun doesn't dominate the stage the same way but everything else is as good(in some ways better). He is a spacie though, Even if he's not on the same level as Fox/Falco overall...being 1 level lower would make you overall as good as melee sheik.

 

[deadjames]

You appear to have missed the point of the pointless comparison of character's individual attributes I find that remarkable considering the bold font &size made it easy but...whatever it's cool. I think you also misread what I said about Link and Falcon or at least misunderstood what I wrote. You've also implied that you have no idea what a tier list is or how they are made. A tier list doesn't reflect tournament results.

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It is an indicator of how each character is expected to perform, under tournament settings, in relation to the rest of the cast. Thus, tiers measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. Tier lists are common in fighting games as well as many other competitive games involving a large selection of characters.

The tier list does not say anything about any single match-up. For example, if two players are equally matched in skill, and one uses Mario and the other uses Luigi, the tier list alone can not be used to predict the outcome of the match accurately. This is because the tier list looks at a character's overall potential and effectiveness, and individual match-ups can be soft or hard counters that affect but do not entirely determine a character's ranking. For instance, in the aforementioned example, if the Mario vs Luigi match-up was tipped in Luigi's favor, but Luigi has overall worse match-ups compared to Mario's match-ups against every other character in the game, it would mean that Luigi beats Mario, but Luigi is still worse than Mario.

Even if you still feel deep down that Luigi's design should be better the fact is it's not. Even during the "Year of Luigi" a single Doc player outplaced 4 of the top Luigi's in the world in Melee. It's happened actually on a number of occasions. Mario is better in Project M than Doc, He's got all his strengths and all of Mario's strengths. The only downgrade would be that the fireballs do less damage than the pills. Still, Fireball's endlag has been cut in half. Combined with B-reverse Mario can use his fireballs to camp a lot safer. I'm not trying to imply that luigi is bad by any means. I just think it's hard to place him in S-tier, or even A-tier. B-tier is possible, Likely even and there isn't anything wrong with B-tier. The reason why I compare characters like Luigi, Falcon, Ganon,and Pikachu is because they were all buffed but the overall changes to the game and addition/altering of other characters keeps them relatively close together. essentially the world has moved around them. How they all do as a whole is still being investigated but for now none of these characters can be justifiably placed higher than they have been in melee in terms of tiers.

Ok, well I still disagree, none of your arguments have been compelling enough for me to change my opinion that Luigi is top tier, I think he's better than Mario. Doc is definitely better in Melee, but based on the changes in P:M, I still think Luigi comes out on top, especially because they kept a lot of Brawl things in for both characters too and in Brawl Luigi is far superior to Mario.

 

[Archangel]

Ok, well I still disagree, none of your arguments have been compelling enough for me to change my opinion that Luigi is top tier, I think he's better than Mario. Doc is definitely better in Melee, but based on the changes in P:M, I still think Luigi comes out on top, especially because they kept a lot of Brawl things in for both characters too and in Brawl Luigi is far superior to Mario.

This game is so unlike brawl it's astounding. Perhaps if Mario tripped on the ground Luigi would be better but, you are entitled to your opinion. I won't say you are wrong I'll just say get back to me in a year or 2 and assuming neither character has really changed we'll see.

@Oracle do you really name search?

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

What does everyone feel about puff? I feel like all the stuff she had from melee just doesn't work with the PM changes to characters.

 

[GMaster171]

I think the general consensus on Puff is that she does exactly what she does in Melee, but with the new characters, changes to older characters and new stages available, she doesn't do as well overall.

 

[deadjames]

This game is so unlike brawl it's astounding. Perhaps if Mario tripped on the ground Luigi would be better but, you are entitled to your opinion. I won't say you are wrong I'll just say get back to me in a year or 2 and assuming neither character has really changed we'll see.

@Oracle do you really name search?

Oh well yeah definitely, I'm not saying it's going to be set in stone, I'm sure a lot of characters will have changed by the time the final release comes out.

 

[B.W.]

This Luigi being better than Mario talk is hilarious.

It's not all about damage and knockback you know.

 

[Scythe]

wolf is pretty much like 3 or 4 spots below fox and falco. his lack of a sex kick gives him a couple bad matchups.

 

[GP&B]

I really find comparing moves is an incredibly poor way of analyzing who is better, especially when the subject is talking about which character performs better within the metagame against the rest of the cast. A trait like being able to live to 150% easily is not very relevant if your character is easily pressured and juggled. Overall, Mario's combination of moves and traits serves him better than Luigi's do even if you feel Luigi's moveset alone is better than Mario's; you're failing to acknowledge how Luigi combats other character types of which Mario has been shown to be quite capable against.

EDIT: To take one example, Mario's UTilt may not combo into itself as well as Luigi's does but that's because it's not supposed to. Ideally, you want to link into UThrows, USmash, or UAirs, which will throw the opponent diagonal of Mario, encouraging him to use his faster air speed to give chase and lead into a finisher. Mario is not meant to juggle above him but in front of him not unlike Falcon. The behavior of his moves are designed to compliment his traits.

 

[deadjames]

This Luigi being better than Mario talk is hilarious.

It's not all about damage and knockback you know.

I know it's not all about damage and knockback and I never implied that, I don't think Luigi is better by a huge margin or anything, but all things considered I think he's still better, he has slightly better approach options, he can apply more pressure, continue combos for longer, and he has more kill options than Mario, all of which can kill a lot earlier, and most of which are just as reliable as Mario's, but Mario definitely excels more at edgeguarding and has an easier time gaining stage control since he's not as slippery.

 

[Strong Badam]

Sooo $50 money match Mario vs. Luigi tomorrow, james?

 

[deadjames]

Sooo $50 money match Mario vs. Luigi tomorrow, james?

I would if I had $50 lol.

Edit: Also, if I didn't know that you're a way better player than me, plus despite the fact that I think Luigi is better overall, I think Mario wins the matchup, onstage it's pretty even, but offstage, Mario can just cape all of Luigi's recovery attempts.

 

[Deleted member]

mario is goddam ridiculous in this game. mario and luigi aren't even in the same league.

 

[trash?]

comboability + dmg is all fine and dandy, but that's not really the difference you should be paying attention to here

it's basically as simple as this: mario has ways to get in. luigi does not. yes, when you DO get in, luigi's getting more out of it, but mario is getting in a hundred times better, because he has great spacing tools, whereas a good majority of the moves mario uses to poke, luigi uses as combo extension once he's already in. because of this, mario's getting 5-5 matchups across the board, whereas anyone who can set up an even reasonable defense is going to ruin luigi's day. it's even worse when you get into his air mobility, because even something as simple as snake's side-b can make luigi's recovery hell

I used to main luigi. can you tell I am bitter about that

 

[JayMan-X]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned how horribly easy it is to edgeguard Luigi? As soon as he gets below the stage, he's done.

 

[GP&B]

That was the main thing I wanted to bring up. Luigi is almost strictly limited to ground game just because his air mobility is dreadful. Where he excels, he does great, but if your character can force Luigi into the air it's GGs.

Samus has a similar issue in Melee but with way more options to combat that (huge Nair, dB, Missiles, better fastfall).

 

[deadjames]

comboability + dmg is all fine and dandy, but that's not really the difference you should be paying attention to here

it's basically as simple as this: mario has ways to get in. luigi does not. yes, when you DO get in, luigi's getting more out of it, but mario is getting in a hundred times better, because he has great spacing tools, whereas a good majority of the moves mario uses to poke, luigi uses as combo extension once he's already in. because of this, mario's getting 5-5 matchups across the board, whereas anyone who can set up an even reasonable defense is going to ruin luigi's day. it's even worse when you get into his air mobility, because even something as simple as snake's side-b can make luigi's recovery hell

I used to main luigi. can you tell I am bitter about that

Maybe it's just because I'm coming from being more experienced with Brawl Luigi, since I main Doc in Melee obviously compared to Brawl I don't feel like Luigi has that much trouble getting in, his increased fireball range and wavedash make it pretty easy for him to approach with whatever he feels like on the ground but his aerial approach does kind of suck, I can agree with his recovery problems though, projectiles in general mess with him a lot more than they do with Mario, but in terms of someone trying to edgeguard them at close range I think Luigi has the advantage, especially if he saves his double jump for as long as he can.

@Gamedominator: I don't know, his aerials have pretty good priority, he's definitely more vulnerable in the air, but I don't think it's impossible for him to regain the upper hand, especially if he lands a surprise nair or fair.

 

[EpixAura]

There's one important difference between Mario and Luigi that hasn't been mention nearly enough: out of shield options.
Luigi's OoS options are practically non-existent in a lot of matchups. Just hit his shield and watch him slide away. Mario's OoS game isn't necessarily amazing, but it's several times better than Luigi's.

Then there are other things like recovery (Luigi is much easier to edgeguard), approaching potential (Luigi's wavedash is fantastic, but he doesn't have much beyond that. He's pretty much just limited to his grounded moveset for approaches, because once he jumps, he stays up there for a while, giving up any pressure he had on the opponent.), ability to force approaches (Largely determined by projectile dominance, and Mario has better fireballs. The cape is also a small but important factor in the projectile war), and various other things I'm too lazy to point out.

That said, I think Luigi actually is pretty underrated, it's just that Mario is really, really strong. Luigi kind of reminds me of P:M Bowser in the fact that the character is decent on his own, but benefits a lot more from the opponent not knowing the matchup than most other characters do because of the amount of ridiculous things said characters can pull off, although Luigi is a lot less reliant on surprise factor than Bowser is.

 

[KayB]

I know it's not all about damage and knockback and I never implied that,

That was exactly what you were implying. You were literally listing out how each move was stronger and better than Mario's. If you didn't mean that, you need to work on getting to your point.

I don't think Luigi is better by a huge margin or anything,

You stated that Luigi was far superior to Mario on several different posts on this single thread. Don't go back on your words.

he has slightly better approach options,

Like?

continue combos for longer,

Which doesn't matter at all. If anything, that's a bad thing. Ideally, you want a character to do as much damage with as little hits as possible for easier execution.

and he has more kill options than Mario, all of which can kill a lot earlier, and most of which are just as reliable as Mario's, but Mario definitely excels more at edgeguarding and has an easier time gaining stage control since he's not as slippery.

Edgeguarding is just as vital as kill moves. You don't want to resort to kill moves since the aim of the game is to kill the opponent as fast as possible, which is accomplished via edgeguarding and gimping. More kill moves does not equal a better character.


You also mention attack, attack, attack, but playing defensively is just as important and even absolutely vital in many match ups. Mario is far more superior than Luigi when playing defensively.

 

[Rat]

wolf is pretty much like 3 or 4 spots below fox and falco. his lack of a sex kick gives him a couple bad matchups.

Where do you put fox and falco?

 

[Plum]

Luigi's kit is totally void of vacuums and flashlights.
I don't know how we expect him to compete without them.

 

[Scythe]

Where do you put fox and falco?

they are 2 of the top 3

 

[trash?]

the third character of the top 3, of course, being whoever gets a surprise win at the next major so everyone can complain for nerfs

 

[DMG]

Will probably be Wario with the rate Reflex is chuggin along at

 

[trash?]

wario's always S tier but nobody believes me

he's fat jigglypuff. in the current metagame, fat jigglypuff is a VERY GOOD THING TO BE

 

[Juushichi]

He's air Sonic with Falcon damage/combos/momentum.

I have said this forever.

 

[DMG]

No that's not what he is or why he's good (Fat Jiggs part). Sure, the obvious is that he is Fat Jiggs in the air. But having a decent ground game and a monstrous mixup game is why he's good. You have to consistently DI and defend correctly from even minor hits.

 

[Oro?!]

On the topic of Mario vs luigi... Mario wins by a landslide.

There is character loyalty James, and then there is also ignorance.

 

[trash?]

but him being fat jiggs has an importance imo

he has a lot of the aerial spacing tools that makes jiggs so scary, but he has none of the weightlessness, which is a huge deal

 

[Archangel]

On the topic of Mario vs luigi... Mario wins by a landslide.

There is character loyalty James, and then there is also ignorance.

I did everything I could to avoid saying something that is mean and personal....but maybe I'm getting nicer with age....scary thought.


On another note Wario is like a heavy Puff but with less jumps. As far as his relationship with Mario and the MU's in this game....idk I can see them as the PM version of Puff/Sheik. I think Wario's are gonna have to work for some MU's the same way puff has too but Mario'.s only real problems are the other insanely good characters.

As for who's top 3 it's impossible to say 100% for sure at this point. I'm sure Falco/Fox are in the top 10 along with wolf. Where Wolf is they are above him. As someone else already stated. "lack of sex kick" hurts his Match-ups. If Wolf got a sex kick and a fox/falco-like bair he'd probably go from being worse to even. Possibly better who knows. As he is now though he's close to them but still not on the exact same playing field yet.

 

[Oro?!]

Ignorance has no place in debates, sorry. If you are unable to be moved from your position regardless if it's opinionated or based in mountains of facts, then it isn't a debate. I could be the best player in the world but if I said Luigi is better than Mario, it wouldn't make it true.

 

[Nguz95]

I did everything I could to avoid saying something that is mean and personal....but maybe I'm getting nicer with age....scary thought.


On another note Wario is like a heavy Puff but with less jumps. As far as his relationship with Mario and the MU's in this game....idk I can see them as the PM version of Puff/Sheik. I think Wario's are gonna have to work for some MU's the same way puff has too but Mario'.s only real problems are the other insanely good characters.

As for who's top 3 it's impossible to say 100% for sure at this point. I'm sure Falco/Fox are in the top 10 along with wolf. Where Wolf is they are above him. As someone else already stated. "lack of sex kick" hurts his Match-ups. If Wolf got a sex kick and a fox/falco-like bair he'd probably go from being worse to even. Possibly better who knows. As he is now though he's close to them but still not on the exact same playing field yet.

Wario is strong. I'm calling it now, he is the new noob cannon. Him and Ivy are going to shake up the metagame pretty hard for 2.6. Wolf has better recovery than both spacies, but his neutral game is not as incredible as Fox's or Falco's. He's essentially a balanced spacie. He doesn't have all of the traits that make Fox and Falco transcendent, which I definitely support. I personally think this character is, for the most part, a finished product.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Idk about exactly as good. People are still really far from being perfect with Side B finish kills or utilizing other traits that would potentially keep him on par with the other two. Most Wolf videos, specifically in Neutral, give off the impression that he's basically an inferior Spacie.

Everyones wolf is ****ing terrible lol. I'm not saying mines that great, but I have a pretty good idea of how good he is. His neutral game is amazing. Great defense/offense with lasers (as long as you're not a noob), really good dash dance, grabs couldn't be more viable. His mobility in the air is amazing. His nair is really amazing on or off shield and for catching people in the air and brining them down into a combo. No one takes advantage of sh auto canceled fair either. Very good and unpunishable if you do it thru them; if it hits you can react and combo.

I could go on about how great wolf is in the neutral game or wherever but eventually people will get good and you'll see. I think one of the best things about him is that he has a pretty easy time killing every character. His fair is amazing

 

[The_NZA]

Doesn't wolf's current nair allow him to do certain chains and combos with ease that a regular sexkick couldn't do reliably?

 

[\Apples]

^ Wolf's combo game might even be better than both Fox/Falco's.

wario's always S tier but nobody believes me


he's fat jigglypuff. in the current metagame, fat jigglypuff is a VERY GOOD THING TO BE

Wario isn't S tier. I've been saying he's been underestimated since 2.1 but nobody listens to anyone around here so... yeah.

Anyways, he has a lot of trouble with characters that outrange him but he's got **** he can pull on every cast member. As far as my experience goes, his matchup chart isn't terribly skewed but there are definitely some matchups he really has to work hard for (all 3 spacies in particular) Speaking of Wolf, both SW's and Meta's Wolves have convinced me that Wolf takes that matchup but it's not by much. My skill as a player is mostly what holds the Wario back vs SW and Meta and I are pretty close but I think his character can punish harder than mine can and he ends up taking the better portion of our matches.

A little insight into that matchup for y'all.

 

[B.W.]

Wario and Ivysaur... Ivysaur?

Have I been out of the loop for a while or something?

 

[SpiderMad]

No one takes advantage of sh auto canceled fair either. Very good and unpunishable if you do it thru them; if it hits you can react and combo.

People suck at utilizing ACs and things that require near instant aerials. A buffer of 1 frame lightens up that area to people in a good way (1 frame strict inputs are still very hard, like SH Bair WL with Squirtle [which not only requires you input the Bair the frame after leaving Jump Squat, but then to time the Air dodge the single frame you have before touching the ground], but then are doable at an almost viable consistency; that said though people apparently got consistent on doing SWD with Samus which is a 1 frame input).