Ganon has purple fire. Ganon is Hyrule Tier. Purple fire is Hyrule Tier. Mewtwo is Hyrule Tier.
Facts people. Facts.
Facts people. Facts.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Nguz95
Smash Lord
No sir. Purple Fire is an effect that is not exclusive to Ganon. It is found in Graphic Effects 52 and 61. It also comes from the flag named "darkness," whose ID # is 13. Purple Fire is it's own entity, and is top of the tier list for graphics effects. Mewtwo is top tier sir!
Fixed.
deadjames
Smash Lord
Well this is based on pretty limited MU experience because I main the Mario Bros. and the only people I play with on a regular basis main Ganon, Marth, and Squirtle, and I've only played in a crew battle at a local tourney in which I absolutely destroyed Lucas, and Link with Bowser, but then got four stocked by my friend that plays Ganon.
Top Tier: Spacies, Falcon, Shiek, Mario Bros., Marth, Sonic (yes 2.6 Sonic is still amazing, I just think no one has taken the time to learn him yet)
High Tier: Zelda, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Peach, R.O.B., Jiggs
Borderline: Pit ( I can't decide if he should be high or mid, he's a really solid character, but playing him, almost feels like playing Sonic in Brawl, it requires so much effort just to do a combo, the difference being Pit's combos are much more rewarding, and he actually has decent kill power, which makes me inclined to believe he could possibly be high tier, not to mention he doesn't seem to have too many bad MUs)
Mid Tier: Wario, DK, Diddy, Ganon, Link, Tink, Charizard, Lucario, Pika, MK, Ike
Borderline: D3, Ness, Lucas, G&W
Low Tier: Bowser (yes, contrary to popular belief, I think he still sucks, people just don't know the MU, he does surprisingly well against fast-fallers, but gets destroyed by characters that can apply relentless pressure like Weegee and Shiek, characters with multihit moves like Lucas, Ivy, and Diddy, or small, fast characters like Pika and Squirtle, and he gets totally outspaced by anyone with swords especially Marth, and Ike can kill him at like 40% with an fsmash so his weight just hinders him in that MU)
Bottom Tier: ZSS, Snake (maybe it's just that I suck with them, but these two seem like they're absolute garbage compared to their Brawl iterations)
Top Tier: Spacies, Falcon, Shiek, Mario Bros., Marth, Sonic (yes 2.6 Sonic is still amazing, I just think no one has taken the time to learn him yet)
High Tier: Zelda, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Peach, R.O.B., Jiggs
Borderline: Pit ( I can't decide if he should be high or mid, he's a really solid character, but playing him, almost feels like playing Sonic in Brawl, it requires so much effort just to do a combo, the difference being Pit's combos are much more rewarding, and he actually has decent kill power, which makes me inclined to believe he could possibly be high tier, not to mention he doesn't seem to have too many bad MUs)
Mid Tier: Wario, DK, Diddy, Ganon, Link, Tink, Charizard, Lucario, Pika, MK, Ike
Borderline: D3, Ness, Lucas, G&W
Low Tier: Bowser (yes, contrary to popular belief, I think he still sucks, people just don't know the MU, he does surprisingly well against fast-fallers, but gets destroyed by characters that can apply relentless pressure like Weegee and Shiek, characters with multihit moves like Lucas, Ivy, and Diddy, or small, fast characters like Pika and Squirtle, and he gets totally outspaced by anyone with swords especially Marth, and Ike can kill him at like 40% with an fsmash so his weight just hinders him in that MU)
Bottom Tier: ZSS, Snake (maybe it's just that I suck with them, but these two seem like they're absolute garbage compared to their Brawl iterations)
War Anvil
Smash Lord
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I don't have much of a say on 2.6 because I'm busy with Brawl- MAX. However, I do think Sonic seems more borderline than anything. From what I've heard, he must have become the token skill gate, if you will.
Oracle
Smash Master
that relentless luigi pressure
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Where Me and Oro belong.
Professor Pro is garbage.
He basically said it himself.
You all saw it.
He basically said it himself.
You all saw it.
Might sound a bit mean, but...
Falcon in top tier? Are you crazy?! He wasn't even top tier in Melee and now that the whole cast has significantly improved to beat characters like him, you still think he's top tier? I'd like to hear the reasoning behind this. Mario is good, but he's not that good. I admit that he's easy to use, but that doesn't make him top tier. Plus, he has no trump card to pull out. I could see him being in top tier, but he still has approach problems even with his dair. Luigi is definitely not top tier. Mid-tier and High-tier I can stand for, but he's not significantly better than the rest of the cast. Sonic is definitely not top tier anymore. I'm not denying he's good, but I think you're exaggerating how good he is to counter the butthurt guys.
Zelda should not be there. She is not better than the majority of the cast. You can theorycraft all you want on pen and paper, it just hasn't worked out like that yet. DK overall has a better MU spread than ROB, so I don't know why he's higher than him. Jiggs is debatable honestly, I haven't seen enough Puffs to make an accurate statement.
I agree with this except with Tink. I do NOT think he's better than D3 and G&W. He's probably even worse than Ness and Lucas. DEFINITELY lower than Bowser.
I refuse to believe a character with a disjointed hitbox, an excellent grab game, an amazing combo game, and a ridiculous gimping/edgeguarding game should be considered low tier. I'm talking about D3 here.
You exaggerate. He doesn't get "destroyed," he just has a tougher time. I rest my case saying that Bowser is the most tourney successful PM character to date. In this circumstance, popular belief is more trustworthy than a personal one.
Clearly you have never seen Professor Pro play Snake. Many including some PMBR members think Snake is high tier.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I agree with half this list. I disagree with the other half. Sounds like the speculation thread is right back to where it should be.
on another note. I find it difficult to believe that you have trouble combo'ing with pit. Pit's combo game especially vs the characters you play on a regular basis...I don't see it. Maybe I've played him long enough to the point where I understand how to combo with him. It's possible that I've got a bias and I'm replacing my experience with a character with natural ease. Most cases if I get a character that falls mid speed or faster into the air I can pick any aerial I want to continue combo'ing. I need second opinions though but from my experience combo'ing with pit is among the easiest things to do.
deadjames
Smash Lord
Falcon actually is top tier in Melee according to the current tier list, but like I said I have limited MU experience, so I'm definitely open to changing my opinion on many of these based on a compelling argument. However, the ones that you disagree with that I'm going to firmly stand by are the Mario Bros. and Bowser, just because he's been successful in tourney doesn't make him a good character, every character I mentioned has the potential to solidly beat Bowser provided the player is familiar with the MU, as for Mario, how is his approach bad? He can approach with fireballs, and every aerial except for fair, even dash attack, also his trump cards are cape to edgeguard, it works one everyone who doesn't have a tether recovery, and dthrow (uthrow for fastfallers) to fair kills at around the 80-100% range it works on nearly the entire cast, as for Luigi, I've always felt that he was an underrated character, in every game except for Melee, in which he was high tier, in P:M he's far superior to his Melee iteration, thus my logic for considering him top tier, plus I've yet to have trouble in any MUs with him other than Falco and even then it doesn't feel like he has that much of a disadvantage. Sonic is debatable, I honestly don't feel like his nerfs were significant enough for him to fall lower than a few spots.
Edit: @Archangel: I don't know maybe I'm just bad with Pit, but it's not so much that I think it's hard for him to combo characters, it's more that I think executing the combos requires a lot of effort, especially when you're chasing them offstage, I definitely agree that he wins against Ganon, and Squirtle though, Marth feels pretty even, but Pit might have a slight advantage.
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as an fyi, the recently released melee tier list is absolute bull**** and no one trusts it. just use the 2010 MBR tier list as a reference if you need one.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Mario is probably top. Falcon is not Top, He's Falcon therefore he's worse than somebody it's just...a rule. Bowser's success from 2.1-2.6 can be described as receding, fading even. He was along with the spacies and sheik among the highest consistant top 5 placing characters around the US at least. Then as the games updated and new characters were changed Fox,Falco,Sheik and bowser are unchanged but Bowser's overall success has dropped significantly. In the end of the day he's slow and his armor just means you can't go for trades but most of the cast is too fast or too rangy for him to force trades anyhow. Not to mention Bowser's armor is counterpicked by grabs. With that said I don't think bowser is low. He's somewhere in the middle. Luigi has always had the potential to be good but his recovery held him back in melee. Now his recovery is much better but so is most of the cast's recovery He's got new threats and some of his previous rivals got significantly better where as for the most part all he got was a better down-b. As for sonic, If you don't realize how big of a change the nerfs had then perhaps you didn't understand him as well in the previous version. That or you get annoyed by noob slaying tactics like Homing spam. Understandable, I was annoyed by it but that wasn't the reason why he was rated S-tier. It was his ability to be a spinball constantly until you were dead that made him SS-tier. He's a shell of his former self, which isn't to say that he's bad. Honestly he's still capable of fighting but he didn't drop a few spaces. There isn't much of a solid space for anyone there is just a range. If he ranged between 1-5th best before and he currently seems to range between 17-23rd I'd say that's a pretty big drop.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Sonic still has potential, people must return to his basics or maybe even learn from a cpu, being honest
deadjames
Smash Lord
I guess I can agree with that for Bowser, I guess I was just salty over losing so terribly with him, but I still think Luigi is top tier, I mean if Mario is than Luigi has to be because he's better imo, and it will take a lot of convincing to change my mind about that, but no I do understand what made Sonic good and the thing is he can still spin dash you to death, it's just a lot harder now, since you can't just spin dash camp, you actually have to find creative ways to use it as a tech chase, plus his uair is a lot better now, so he can kill off the top reliably. Basically, I don't feel like Sonic got much worse, I just think he got more of a learning curve.
As much as I love Luigi, I don't know man. That traction is horrible. And when I mean horrible, I mean HORRIBLE. Try getting hit and then literally just sliding off the stage at high speed. I guess I shouldn't base it on one thing, but quite some deaths were done with that surprising movement and ruined my game.
ily<3
deadjames
Smash Lord
I'd actually tend to agree with Boss on this one, he made this statement in regards to Brawl Luigi, but I think it applies to Melee and P:M as well, these aren't his exact words, but basically Luigi's horrible traction is actually more of an advantage than a disadvantage, perhaps even more so in Melee in P:M because it's the reason he has the best wavedash in the game, and even if you slide offstage, it's not like it's hard to get back on, especially because cyclone, nair, bair, fireballs and fair can shut down a lot of edgeguard attempts, plus his slide makes for an interesting defensive game because he can do retreating jabs, grabs, tilts, and smashes.
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
You guys are forgetting it's the YEAR OF LUIGI
deadjames
Smash Lord
Watch after this year, PMBR will come out with an update that changes nothing except makes Luigi complete garbage.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Saying Luigi is Top tier is like saying Ganon is top tier. It's just not the truth.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
I do not think zamus should be low, her up-special wrecks ****. Took me a while to get used to her nerf from vBrawl, but damn is she one of my favorites, up there with lucario.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Oi, ganon is top tier, its just that not enough good players use him; same goes for luigi
Archangel
Smash Hero
The thing about ZSS is her MU's. Her match-up spread reminds me of Toon links in Melee.
As for me handling the truth. I can handle it but the BS I just can't take. Granted it's speculation and everything but there is nothing about Ganon/Luigi that says S-tier level as of 2.6b. Not even in terms of theorycrafting perfect play do they get to S-tier. It's just not going to happen. Mario, has the strengths of Mario/Doc without the weaknesses. He's got enough tools and a generally great looking Match-up spread that you can argue he's among the best Pound for Pound for sure. Luigi is still a sad little bro at this point. Not bad. I think Luigi and Ganon are good but they are too good and not enough very good or ****ing great.
As for me handling the truth. I can handle it but the BS I just can't take. Granted it's speculation and everything but there is nothing about Ganon/Luigi that says S-tier level as of 2.6b. Not even in terms of theorycrafting perfect play do they get to S-tier. It's just not going to happen. Mario, has the strengths of Mario/Doc without the weaknesses. He's got enough tools and a generally great looking Match-up spread that you can argue he's among the best Pound for Pound for sure. Luigi is still a sad little bro at this point. Not bad. I think Luigi and Ganon are good but they are too good and not enough very good or ****ing great.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
deadjames
Smash Lord
I'd still disagree, Luigi is better than Mario in almost every way, stronger, faster (mostly because of his wavedash), better recovery, more kill options (and less predictable ones at that) 0-death combos, chain grabs, more range, jab>shoryuken, jab>misfire. Mario's only advantages over Luigi are the cape, better fireballs (in most situations), and better lateral air speed. Ganon is definitely not S-tier though, he's got mobility and kill power, but his combo game sucks, he's a big target, and a lot of his moves are still really punishable.
Edit: Oh yeah and Luigi's cyclone is better than Mario's tornado, not only can he recover more effectively with it, he can also use it to start combos and kill off the top, and Luigi can pressure a lot harder than Mario, especially when his opponent is above him on platforms, it takes like a few nairs/dairs/fairs to break a shield.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
ZSS clearly top tier broken bcuz I win da tournament moniez. PMBR pls nerf.
deadjames
Smash Lord
I can see the potential in Lucario, it just feels like a lot of his moves don't have enough priority, as for ZSS, I really want someone to try to change my opinion on her if someone can explain to me why she's good because she seems pretty terrible to me.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
From what I see zss has a ****load of potential, enough time is required for people to actually make up good tactics and stuff like that
Archangel
Smash Hero
in a lot of these cases "better" is circumstantial. You can't just go down a list and name moves you think are better and then say this character is better because there is a lot more to a tier list than that......but lets do it anyway!!!!!
Now, The Greatest part about all of this is it means....NOTHING!!!!
You can compare any 2 characters weaknesses and strength in the game and it still won't accurately reflect which one will perform better in a tournament setting. In fact, it's deceptive in most cases. You can compare the tools that Link has to Falcon and decide Link is better than him but in Melee Link is a low tier and Falcon is somewhere in the top 8. So what you see on paper and statistically isn't always an indicator of how well a character will do(unless it's fox with a 1frame invincible attack).
Best bet as of right now is looking at how well each character functions in respect to every other character in the game with tournament stages/rules in mind. In other words, a Match-up chart. Granted it's been too short for most characters to be placed accurately on a MU chart. Some MU's to me are completely unknown. I dare say a few haven't even happened on anything close to the highest level yet. However, From what I have seen and what I do know luigi still has mostly even or difficult match-ups. I won't say losing just yet. Mario on the other hand has mostly winning or even-ish MU's.
Lucario is blue tier with Sonic.
Sonic in lucario remind me of eachother actually. Both were amazing at one point, Now both are relatively bad compared to how they once were and there are a brave few in denial of this fact.
??? Do people not like the placements or the groupings? The groupings are massive lol.
Falcon was not top tier. He was high tier. Fox, Falco, and Puff were Top tier if we are using the 2010 tier list as a reference. Luigi is also mid-tier, he is not high tier. I don't know where you got that from. Mario is always borderline between top and high tier. His fireballs are his most guaranteed way of approach. Approaching with aerials other than dair works, but in many cases is also risky. Approaching with bair generally isn't an amazing option, and its better for defensive spacing and edgeguarding. Nair is a great approach move, but its difficult to properly time it to avoid getting shield grabbed or with a fast move like shine. So long as the fireballs can be shut down (for example, Bowser's super armor, Falco's lasers since its a better projectile, a sword to shut down follow ups after the fireballs, etc,) than Mario's approach game suddenly becomes rather lackluster. Cape is exaggerated, itsnothing that would be considered a trump card in many MUs, though he does gain him an advantage in others. And d-throw can be DI'd sometimes making it difficult to land his fair.
Actually, tournament successes are the most reliable way of gaining information on how the character fairs against the rest of the cast. It does in fact mean he's a good character.
This applies to every character in every fighting game ever.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
If you think Wario is mid tier, you are crazy.
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Falcon's best tool is the need to outplay his opponent and/or hope they just run into your stuff.
I think that alone warrants a top tier placement.
I think that alone warrants a top tier placement.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Not to discourage activity in this thread but it may help in making a tier list if you see some of the better people with certain characters and have a reasonably good understanding of them before making a tier list.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Agreed. Professor Pro would be a good place to start with snake. Not sure where his most recent stuff is but there are other good Snake's out there.
Rolex for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRSHSmBPQLY
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
-Roy Tier-
Roy
Roy Kelly
LeRoy
Roy
Roy Kelly
LeRoy
deadjames
Smash Lord
@Archangel: Mario and Luigi's strength is not even close to even, have you seen how much more damage literally all of Luigi attacks do? Even his fireballs are more powerful, if only by 1%, hell a jab to two dtilts will already have your opponent at like 40ish%, and a cyclone to air combo can get them from like 0-70%, Mario has nothing that can accomplish that in as few hits as Luigi, most of his attacks seem to have more knockback too. I can agree with speed, recovery I'd say is slightly in favor of Luigi because the argument about his down b is heavily player dependent, if you can get from the bottom of a stage to at least well above the ledge then you shouldn't be playing Luigi, it's that simple.
Here's some things about the moveset I disagree with:
Neutral b: Even, Luigi's does more damage and is better with platforms, Mario's goes farther and is better without platforms and on slopes, both can be used to gimp.
Up-b: I say it's even Mario's is better for recovery, Luigi's is better for everything else, provided you know how to combo into it and do it oos, it's really not hard to consistently kill with it.
Side-b: I also say it's even Mario's is better for edgeguarding, but Luigi's only requires luck to get the misfire, once you have it you can combo into it from jab, so it's a pretty reliable kill move, I'll need to look into what, if any characters it's guaranteed or not against.
Utilt: Mario's may be faster, but Luigi's is more powerful, has a bigger hitbox and is better for combos.
Dtilt: Even, Mario's is better for combos, Luigi's can gimp at edge, and does a ******** amount of damage.
Ftilt: Luigi's is better is has significantly more range and knockback than Mario's, his best approach option on the ground is wavedash to ftilt, you can edgegaurd with it and it kills at high percents
Usmash: Even, but not the same, Luigi's is better for kills because it sends his opponent up, Mario's is better for combos because it stage spikes when grounded, when his opponent is above him is works like Luigi's but doesn't have nearly as much kill potential.
Dsmash: Also even, but also not the same they have completely different properties, Luigi's again has more range and knockback, and it sends his opponent straight up setting them up for aerials, (or another dsmash if they're a fastfaller). Mario's since his opponent up and diagonally, both can KO, but both are best used as gtfo moves and both can be comboed into from jab.
Fsmash: Luigi's is better it has more range and knockback, it can kill at like 70%, not sure if angling it up still makes it more powerful, but either way it's still significantly more powerful than Mario's.
Fair: Luigi's is better, it's faster and almost as powerful, and easier to land, but has much different knockback trajectory.
Dair: I agree that it's even, but you forgot the mention that Luigi's can meteor
Uair: I'd actually say Luigi's is better for combos, you can pop your opponent up with the first hit of cyclone, then follow them up and hit with the second hit and uair like 2-3 times, it can also kill off the top at high percents, or if your opponent is close to the blast zone.
Bair: Luigi's is better, more range, more knockback, easier to combo into.
Grabs: Luigi's kill throw has more knockback, I can't really argue with Mario's dthrow/uthrow to fair, but Luigi has some dthrow tricks of his own, at low percents he can combo it into 2 bairs or a dash attack, and at high percents into any of his smashes for KOs.
Also I'd tend to disagree with your argument about tournament settings, even in casual play Falcon is clearly a better character than Link, and I've always felt that tournaments have way too many variables involved to base tier lists on their results the biggest one being human error, that's not to say that I don't think they should be considered, but I feel like MUs are much more important to take into account than tournament results, I mean sometimes characters drop on tier lists simply because they aren't being used, and just because a character places well doesn't make them good it makes the player good, Ganon's place well in Brawl tourneys sometimes, but he still has no good MUs, the people who play him are just extremely talented at tech chasing and making reads.
Here's some things about the moveset I disagree with:
Neutral b: Even, Luigi's does more damage and is better with platforms, Mario's goes farther and is better without platforms and on slopes, both can be used to gimp.
Up-b: I say it's even Mario's is better for recovery, Luigi's is better for everything else, provided you know how to combo into it and do it oos, it's really not hard to consistently kill with it.
Side-b: I also say it's even Mario's is better for edgeguarding, but Luigi's only requires luck to get the misfire, once you have it you can combo into it from jab, so it's a pretty reliable kill move, I'll need to look into what, if any characters it's guaranteed or not against.
Utilt: Mario's may be faster, but Luigi's is more powerful, has a bigger hitbox and is better for combos.
Dtilt: Even, Mario's is better for combos, Luigi's can gimp at edge, and does a ******** amount of damage.
Ftilt: Luigi's is better is has significantly more range and knockback than Mario's, his best approach option on the ground is wavedash to ftilt, you can edgegaurd with it and it kills at high percents
Usmash: Even, but not the same, Luigi's is better for kills because it sends his opponent up, Mario's is better for combos because it stage spikes when grounded, when his opponent is above him is works like Luigi's but doesn't have nearly as much kill potential.
Dsmash: Also even, but also not the same they have completely different properties, Luigi's again has more range and knockback, and it sends his opponent straight up setting them up for aerials, (or another dsmash if they're a fastfaller). Mario's since his opponent up and diagonally, both can KO, but both are best used as gtfo moves and both can be comboed into from jab.
Fsmash: Luigi's is better it has more range and knockback, it can kill at like 70%, not sure if angling it up still makes it more powerful, but either way it's still significantly more powerful than Mario's.
Fair: Luigi's is better, it's faster and almost as powerful, and easier to land, but has much different knockback trajectory.
Dair: I agree that it's even, but you forgot the mention that Luigi's can meteor
Uair: I'd actually say Luigi's is better for combos, you can pop your opponent up with the first hit of cyclone, then follow them up and hit with the second hit and uair like 2-3 times, it can also kill off the top at high percents, or if your opponent is close to the blast zone.
Bair: Luigi's is better, more range, more knockback, easier to combo into.
Grabs: Luigi's kill throw has more knockback, I can't really argue with Mario's dthrow/uthrow to fair, but Luigi has some dthrow tricks of his own, at low percents he can combo it into 2 bairs or a dash attack, and at high percents into any of his smashes for KOs.
Also I'd tend to disagree with your argument about tournament settings, even in casual play Falcon is clearly a better character than Link, and I've always felt that tournaments have way too many variables involved to base tier lists on their results the biggest one being human error, that's not to say that I don't think they should be considered, but I feel like MUs are much more important to take into account than tournament results, I mean sometimes characters drop on tier lists simply because they aren't being used, and just because a character places well doesn't make them good it makes the player good, Ganon's place well in Brawl tourneys sometimes, but he still has no good MUs, the people who play him are just extremely talented at tech chasing and making reads.