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Thoughts on APEX2012 GFs: Melee, Brawl, The Metagame, and Playing to Win

Acryte

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
986
I feel like the op is blowing it way out of proportion. Brawl was more defensive from the beginning, and its slow pace and lack of decent offensive approach options made defense, zoning and projectile spam generally favorable. This is 1 matchup that sucks. Honestly hbox mango puff dittos was awesome I love spacing battles. YL vs Puff is just one of the most unentertaining matchups in the game. Hungrybox just needs to double blind game 1 and actually use the cp system armada has been using against him.

Also a lot of melee players are waiting to give smash 4 a chance but have already expressed that they don't care about its release. If its just brawl 2.0 then we really would just have to wait and see if its competetive and fun, otherwise we still have melee.
:phone:
 

HomeStylePie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
40
If we look at "the metagame" as "what happened in GFs at the last big tournament" then gameplay does seem to be getting campier. Of course, before this weekend our last point of reference was a Falco ditto, and before that we had Fox/Peach. I think we're taking these results a little too seriously.

Personally, I'm glad I get to follow the ongoing war between Armada and HBox, and I'm honestly looking forward to the next installment. I like seeing two top spacies going at it, but this is still exciting in it's own way. Like Twinkles said, every hit felt like a death-blow. It's better than watching Wolverine pull the exact same combo on Iron Man eight times in a row.
 

Acryte

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
986
There is nothing new about crouching powershield with marth. Its been known for years just like yoshis abuse crouching backwards powershield. These is obvious to anyone that looks at the powershield hurtbox frame data pictures. Many people have known about and used this. Also, when applied, it still doesn't make ps that much easier. PS is largly a timing either way and crouching facing away doesn't make too significant an impact on midgame psing. Maybe if you were donkey kong LOL. Speaking of which that would be great for donks.

:phone:
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
this type of campy play is by no means a recent development in the metagame, on the contrary it only seems that way because methods of playing against it have improved. therefore, two players that are forced to play in this way in order to have the best chance of winning rarely meet in tournaments because other players, who embrace the very developed technical game, take them out.

captain jack vs hax should be enough evidence to show that spacing/push and pull tactics are quite old; he beat hax pretty soundly using 5 year old tactics that, for the most part, this community hasnt needed to know as well in the past few years

dont get me wrong, i think that the best players in the world currently are playing the highest level smash thats been played, but in terms of the general gameplay, spacing/zoning has lost emphasis

ducking lasers to make powershielding easier is also like 6 years old, watch any old sheik vs falco video

anyway, the issue with these matches is not simply that theyre boring to watch. nobody thinks they should have played differently, because everybody understands they were doing their best to win. they both played the best they were capable of given the skills they had crafted up to this point. if you want to be mad at somebody for the quality of the grand finals, be mad at other players for losing to them earlier on (in quite exciting and non-campy sets, i might add)

but anyway, the reason people really dont like these sets is because if, like you say we should, people study these tactics and learn to play this way in general, im not going to go to tournaments anymore. i think i would do just as well, as you are correct in saying that these tactics are not mindless but actually quite difficult. people trying to just pick up campy tactics will lose, and good players that are good at playing that way will do well. so while my results wont change, it wont be fun. i dont go to brawl tournaments for a reason, and if melee tournaments were the same, i wouldnt go to them either.

thats why people dont want to see finals like that. if thats what the general tournament matches come to resemble (which i dont think will happen) melee players wont like melee anymore

i dont know why everybody is still crazy about uniting the brawl and melee communities. there are hardly any players who play both games, probably no more than crossover between melee/brawl and 2d fighters. while this tournament managed to draw sponsorship, and thats a good thing, most dont, at least not on this level. by combining communities, you have 600 people instead of 300 people, with the same amount of staff, less than twice as many setups, less than twice as much space, the same amount of time, and m2k happy because he gets to play both games.

i keep making posts that end up too long today
 

xianglongfa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
79
...and m2k happy because he gets to play both games.
I don't think that M2K is too happy about playing both games. On good days he seems happy to play melee. He only wants to play brawl for money. At least this is what he's said before. Round 2 Brawl pools probably ultimately shifted his decision to focusing on brawl(when yeah it looks like now melee could've been the better choice) after losing to wobbles. Shame we didn't get to see god-mode m2k v. armada. It's always a treat.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
right, but hes the only player who excels at both games, and actually benefits at all from having them both at the same tournament
 

Smashjin

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
617
Location
Centerville, Massachusetts
I understand they were playing to win but Hungrybox trying to time out Armada, and planning to from the start on a couple matches, just seemed unnecessary.

Against Young Link of all characters too. He could have picked and trained up a simple counterpick for YL in the past year or so. I also feel that Puff can beat YL without having to try and time him out, though it would be an annoying fight.
 

mesa23

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
248
Location
Miami, FL
i'm starting to think that i saw a different match than what people are saying they saw for grandfinals

it's like dogysamich said, trying to approach against yl as puff is like trying to drive a whale through a minefield

go watch his set vs armada from pound 5(i think) and see what happens when he tries approaching and winning from stocks.
 

Smashjin

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
617
Location
Centerville, Massachusetts
At Pound5 Hbox probably didn't have much of an idea as how to fight a really good Young Link.

Hbox picking the larger stages for counterpicks probably didn't help him approach much any did it?
 

Jonas

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
2,400
Location
Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
Picking large stages only helps YLink in running away. His gameplay at APEX12 didn't seem to have much to do with approaching, but giving YLink more space doesn't help.
No one ever reads my posts :c
I read it but didn't comment because I pretty much agreed. I didn't have much to add lol.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
Most people seem to agree that we shouldn't change anything about the rules. My personal two cents:

Brawl is bad because it's boring to play and to watch. The OP doesn't subscribe to this view, but he's in the minority among melee players. He also says that since smash 4 will be a campfest as well, we should "prepare" by playing like HBox/Armada. I don't think too many of us are on the edge of our seats.

That said, melee is not a bad game, because only a few matchups are jank. Some people enjoyed the boxmada GF's; I haven't watched them yet, but I get the feeling that I will not enjoy them. I certainly don't enjoy playing that matchup. But this IS NOT the be-all and end-all of melee, and commentators should be more professional (that's obvious as well, I think).

So: keep the boxmada sets as long as they go on. We don't have to enjoy them, but they're a part of the game.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2006
Messages
2,833
Location
Kansas City, MO
BigD! said:
but anyway, the reason people really dont like these sets is because if, like you say we should, people study these tactics and learn to play this way in general, im not going to go to tournaments anymore. i think i would do just as well, as you are correct in saying that these tactics are not mindless but actually quite difficult. people trying to just pick up campy tactics will lose, and good players that are good at playing that way will do well. so while my results wont change, it wont be fun. i dont go to brawl tournaments for a reason, and if melee tournaments were the same, i wouldnt go to them either.
This is exactly the sentiment I'm worried that such a high profile display of these types of tactics would encourage. People emulating Armada will very likely not do it with even a remotely comparative level of skill, but it could easily be enough to cause tournament attendance to become annoying and unpleasant.

I wouldn't want to play smash in a world where timing out your opponent is in vogue.
 

Twinkles

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
1,022
Location
SoCal
I wouldn't want to play smash in a world where timing out your opponent is in vogue.
I wouldn't want this to happen either. The good news is that I doubt this will EVER happen, unless there is UNDENIABLE PROOF that timing out your opponent is the most effective, the most efficient, and the most tried-and-true way to win.

As long as some player(s) can show that offensive, fast-paced play-style can still compete, this defensive gameplay is never going dominate Melee because players are just going to be downright unwilling to resort to it (you and many other posters are proof of that :))
 

Ojanya

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
593
Location
Ohio
Massive;13907621 They both played to win said:
none[/I] of that.

That is my opinion, it is not set in stone and you are free to disagree. **** you if you think insulting me is going to prove your point.
I think that's what's so incredible about it. When the name of the game changes like that, both players were able to adapt and play it at a top level again.

Melee is the same game. May be a boring matchup, but you're not going to see every single person picking up Jiggs and Young link just because of that stream.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I wish people could realize this whole issue of "OMG APPROACHING IS NOW BAD IN MELEE" is ridiculous. Look at the parameters within which top level Melee games are timed out:

1. Hbox is playing. He is quite infamous for his patient play, so this is not surprising.
2. Hbox uses Jiggs. Jiggs is a character well adapted to patient play due to her ability to space aerials without worrying about landing lag and her great recovery. She is, at the same time, susceptible to being timed out due to her lack of projectiles and slow ground and vertical movement speed.
3. Armada is playing. Armada is going into each game vs. Hbox with the mentality that he will time him out. It has become his GOAL, rather than a result of him trying to play patiently.
4. Armada uses YL. He SPECIFICALLY chose YL as a character best suited to time out Jiggs. He is faster than her, and he has powerful projectiles that consistently lead into KOs.

Competitive Melee has been shown to only result in time outs under these circumstances. It is a completely pointless issue in every other matchup or with any other combination of players (I don't recall Armada reverting to YL for Mango's Puff, nor do I think it would have done him any good due to Mango's style). Armada's YL vs. Hbox's Puff is the absolute brink of campiness that Melee can be pushed to, and I think most talented players are able to watch GFs and be fairly entertained with the effort and skill being displayed by each competitor. Is it ideal for entertainment? No, but considering that it is probably the least entertaining matchup possible, it's actually pretty promising.


This notion that Melee is somehow drifting towards Brawl-like game play is laughable. I mean that quite literally. The discussion between Hax with other top players on the State of the Game stream literally resulted in laughter at the possibility that someone could feasibly run away all game and win. Hbox is showing it is difficult enough to do in the best possible matchup for that style, so the idea that YL, let alone any other characters could reproduce similar results against Jiggs, let alone any other opposing characters, is ridiculous.

Even if Melee somehow became a game of entirely push-and-pull, that game will still be vastly more deep than Brawl. Cactuar even specified in that quote that the true source of the camping in Brawl isn't so much the lack of punish as it is the lack of precise and delicate mobility. Top level Melee players are so good at spacing they frequently rely on tactics such as fade away aerials that land just pixels outside of their opponent's grab, or a Marth landing a tipper fsmash on their opponent's shield leaving them completely incapable of punishing the relatively large amount of lag. They frequently avoid attacks by pixels as they dash dance and wave dash in an eternal struggle to maximize their opportunities while limiting their opponents. Don't tell me Melee will become like Brawl because in Brawl, you CAN'T space like THIS.
 

Abate

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
217
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Jesus christ everyone. It's ONE matchup... the bracket was FILLED with exciting matches with a diverse appearance of characters for APEX 2012

It was only GF (which I personally thought was exciting and watched the whole thing).

It's not like the top 32 consisted of YL vs. Puff. The game is fine. People will adapt. Wait for it.

(also nice post, Sliraobe God)
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,974
I don't understand sentiments like

I wouldn't want to play smash in a world where timing out your opponent is in vogue.
If I were to express a similar sentiment, like "I don't want to play Smash in a world where approaching with Falco's laser is in vogue," I would have exactly as much justification for my stance, but I would receive universal backlash. The difference here is really only in the proportion of players that shares the sentiment. We're entitled to our preferences as far as what qualifies as "valuable" gameplay, but it's crazy to act as though these preferences are righteous and to condemn people who don't share them.
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
I didn't stay for the entire GF, but only because I had to leave once and realized it was going to take an hour LOOL. But during like the first set, me and the bros were like "THAT was so smart from Armada!". I play falco and hate anything that isn't falco dittos or fox vs falco, but I appreciated the mind games and spacing at least. Javi vs PP still had me plenty pumped as well. It wasn't great, but I wouldn't say it was bad either. Very bearable matches to watch. I think it would have been epic if it hadn't already happened at 2 other tournaments.
 

The Tycon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
87
Location
MN, land of Aarosmashguy
Post of the year (so far)?

The push-pull thing is something that stuck out to me. I realize that, in Melee, the push-pull system states that if you play defensively or pressure the other guy into doing something and "mindgame" him/her out, there will be a reward that could swing the momentum and win you the match. It doesn't solely mean one hit or two hits, taking that opening can result in combos, stocks, and make them play your game for a period of time.

I really liked the whole post, because it obviously was well thought out, and thanks for putting the time into it.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
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combat22386
I enjoyed MvC and SF4 Finals more than I enjoyed Melee Grandfinals personally. It is good for those 2 considering they got money and all that...but that has been said. Still as for entertainment it was a dud. It's like ordering a PPV fight and getting complete crap boring no action. Technically....everyone who entered or payed spectators fees payed money. I think that downplaying the people who paid for the top placing players and paid for alot of good players via good players fund is much more disrespectful. The people have spoken and overall they hated what they saw and have a right to express it. So it can be ignored or dealt with it somehow.

On the bright side things haven't got too rude just yet but in the next Major international tournament if Hbox and Armada ended up in another set like that I wouldn't be shocked if Boo's started raining in. I mean the first time it happens people cheered. Second time cheered less. third time...cheers turned to silence/walk outs. So before it gets to boooooooooooooo status maybe something can be done.....Ban B05 Sets between Hbox and Armada???? :D


BTW, I think in my anger/disappointing/disgust with what I saw....I forgot to congratulate Armada/Hbox and everyone else who did so well.

Fun fact. Juan is possibly the nicest smasher who's considered a top player in the world. I mean it kind of goes unsaid but he from time to time will even act as a staff member just to help out. I saw him personally working a concession stand at a tournament. I asked and he replied "nah I'm not staff I am just helping out". That's the kind of guy Hungry-box is. He really does care about the community alot and I think that should also be stated along with the pages of hate lol.

<3
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,919
Location
NY (LI)
i want to comment on the part of the op which mentioned how athletes train themselves. I know this is also kinda off the subject a little bit but i was talking to a friend of mine today and asked him " do you think there is a way to train to get better at melee like people do for sports". My belief is that there is a way but we dont know it. the problem is for sports people have spen tons of time and money to study and find the best ways to improve the player, and this is not feasible for something but melee. but i would really like it if we were able to figure out a method of improving our bodies to play at a higher level. atm i feel like we r athletes from the 1800 were yes we are good compared to the avg person, but we could be so much better. (sorry this kinda became a rant and i am not sure how much sense it makes)
 

Jonas

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
2,400
Location
Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
How can you possibly be more entertained by MvC3? It was just two guys performing the combos they've been practicing in training mode for the last year. Melee GFs lasted more than half an our, but every second was filled with incredibly smart decisions and extremely careful and precise spacing. It was absolutely nervewrecking because it was so close and down to the wire. Every second Hbox could get hit by a bomb and comboed to death by a Dair, which to me is more exciting than every second being part of an overly long combo that you've seen everyone do a million times before.
 

anti_dan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
115
I wish people could realize this whole issue of "OMG APPROACHING IS NOW BAD IN MELEE" is ridiculous. Look at the parameters within which top level Melee games are timed out:

1. Hbox is playing. He is quite infamous for his patient play, so this is not surprising.
2. Hbox uses Jiggs. Jiggs is a character well adapted to patient play due to her ability to space aerials without worrying about landing lag and her great recovery. She is, at the same time, susceptible to being timed out due to her lack of projectiles and slow ground and vertical movement speed.
3. Armada is playing. Armada is going into each game vs. Hbox with the mentality that he will time him out. It has become his GOAL, rather than a result of him trying to play patiently.
4. Armada uses YL. He SPECIFICALLY chose YL as a character best suited to time out Jiggs. He is faster than her, and he has powerful projectiles that consistently lead into KOs.

Competitive Melee has been shown to only result in time outs under these circumstances. It is a completely pointless issue in every other matchup or with any other combination of players (I don't recall Armada reverting to YL for Mango's Puff, nor do I think it would have done him any good due to Mango's style). Armada's YL vs. Hbox's Puff is the absolute brink of campiness that Melee can be pushed to, and I think most talented players are able to watch GFs and be fairly entertained with the effort and skill being displayed by each competitor. Is it ideal for entertainment? No, but considering that it is probably the least entertaining matchup possible, it's actually pretty promising.


This notion that Melee is somehow drifting towards Brawl-like game play is laughable. I mean that quite literally. The discussion between Hax with other top players on the State of the Game stream literally resulted in laughter at the possibility that someone could feasibly run away all game and win. Hbox is showing it is difficult enough to do in the best possible matchup for that style, so the idea that YL, let alone any other characters could reproduce similar results against Jiggs, let alone any other opposing characters, is ridiculous.

Even if Melee somehow became a game of entirely push-and-pull, that game will still be vastly more deep than Brawl. Cactuar even specified in that quote that the true source of the camping in Brawl isn't so much the lack of punish as it is the lack of precise and delicate mobility. Top level Melee players are so good at spacing they frequently rely on tactics such as fade away aerials that land just pixels outside of their opponent's grab, or a Marth landing a tipper fsmash on their opponent's shield leaving them completely incapable of punishing the relatively large amount of lag. They frequently avoid attacks by pixels as they dash dance and wave dash in an eternal struggle to maximize their opportunities while limiting their opponents. Don't tell me Melee will become like Brawl because in Brawl, you CAN'T space like THIS.
I concur that the brawl comparisons are unwarranted. The games are so different that it is hard to compare them.

Is there a nearly universal restriction on the number of ledges you can grab in Melle games? Was the finals boring, in my opinion, yes. Was it because of the matchup? Sort of. I'm not active enough to say this for sure, but I really agree with the sentiment that Hbox kinda plays like a camper to begin with, so he can't complain when he gets a dose. I also think that is one is going to play as Jiggs, he should be ready for something like this. Its like playing a space animal and not being prepared for Uthrow.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
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Philadephia, PA
Man, even I love rereading that old wall of text about push and pull vs punishment once in a while. I wish I still wrote about player vs player game mechanics...
 

gghhh3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
78
Location
Killeen, TX
At first I was bored by GFs, but after actually watching the match I grew to enjoy it. Each and every movement, no matter how little, became important.

To the people who are like "I am sad people had to see our GFs like this" did you not watch AE? Dieminion, one of the LAMEST playstyles(Lameminion) was in the GFs for AE. Did they complain? A little, because visually the match is boring. But when you break down the matches there is much more going on and that is the joy of the match.
 

Fregadero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2011
Messages
389
Man, even I love rereading that old wall of text about push and pull vs punishment once in a while. I wish I still wrote about player vs player game mechanics...
So do it. I love reading your old posts when you actually try you're really smart.

Didn't have none of these problems back when marth was prez.

:phone:
 

Fågelholken

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
101
Anyone know how Mango feels after Apex? About his status as a player right now, and everything that happened, what happens next, etc.? He must've mentioned it to someone, would be really interesting to hear!
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
Bobby Phoenix Bieth When I pay good money to go to a tournament I expect to see full matches, not some pansy *** 3 minute matches full of combos and gimps. That'd be like buying a taco box from Taco Bell and only getting 5-6 tacos in it instead of what I fully paid for, ya know?
 

kevo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
241
Location
Minneapolis, MN
I enjoyed MvC and SF4 Finals more than I enjoyed Melee Grandfinals personally. It is good for those 2 considering they got money and all that...but that has been said. Still as for entertainment it was a dud. It's like ordering a PPV fight and getting complete crap boring no action. Technically....everyone who entered or payed spectators fees payed money. I think that downplaying the people who paid for the top placing players and paid for alot of good players via good players fund is much more disrespectful. The people have spoken and overall they hated what they saw and have a right to express it. So it can be ignored or dealt with it somehow.
Speak for yourself. I think Melee GF were awesome and epic, and if you look in Hbox's thread you know that I'm not alone. Sorry that there was no "action" in the set, even though it was an amazing defensive and strategic struggle that pushed both players to the brink. I find it interesting that Melee isn't shine shine knee laser shine dair 100% of the time. Would I have preferred another matchup? Maybe, but you can't watch GF and not feel appreciation for how amazing it was.
 

JesusSmashesPuffs

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
28
Location
Maryland
I don't understand sentiments like



If I were to express a similar sentiment, like "I don't want to play Smash in a world where approaching with Falco's laser is in vogue," I would have exactly as much justification for my stance, but I would receive universal backlash. The difference here is really only in the proportion of players that shares the sentiment. We're entitled to our preferences as far as what qualifies as "valuable" gameplay, but it's crazy to act as though these preferences are righteous and to condemn people who don't share them.
What part of his statement made you think he say his preference was righteous? I feel the exact same way: I wouldn't want to play melee if it became like that. It doesn't make me any more right than you, it just makes it a thing I said.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
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Dec 4, 2008
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Wilmington, Delaware
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Speak for yourself. I think Melee GF were awesome and epic, and if you look in Hbox's thread you know that I'm not alone. Sorry that there was no "action" in the set, even though it was an amazing defensive and strategic struggle that pushed both players to the brink. I find it interesting that Melee isn't shine shine knee laser shine dair 100% of the time. Would I have preferred another matchup? Maybe, but you can't watch GF and not feel appreciation for how amazing it was.
"Speak for yourself" ~Kevo

I won't go into the brawlish debate about how you are not smart if you don't appreciate brilliant defensive play and tactics....etc. It is exactly was it was...No nice way of putting it. If you look in this thread, other apex threads, watched the stream you would know I'm far from alone as well.
 

Black Mantis

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Jun 5, 2008
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Writing my own road...................

Archangel

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Keblerelf

Smash Ace
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Feb 3, 2008
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770
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Ogallala Aquifer
Why are people hating on hungrybox when armada camped just as hard?

Was armada trying to rush in and approach? Please show me when vids come out because all I saw was him throwing bombs and boomerangs and running away.

It seems like people are just using this as an excuse to hate on hbox more.
 

Archangel

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I love Hungrybox. Even if I say **** you hungrybox I still think he's an amazing player. He's on the level of Prime M2K where nobody can do what he does the way he does it. The problem is the way it's done is just not visually pleasing. It's like the difference between ****ing a hot chick and ****ing a 400 pound 50 year old woman. It's just....visually not great even if the results and physics...etc are the same. The only way to beat Hungrybox is to be technically perfect with one of the S tiers or to play the out hungrybox...hungrybox and just be defensive and extremely low risk. Armada did out Camp him so technically it is his fault but there is no other way for him to beat Hungrybox. If Hbox picked up a different character I think Armada would gladly engage in a battle with him. I am shocked he didn't pick up sheik for the YLink. Sheik vs YLink is super free.
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
Why are people hating on hungrybox when armada camped just as hard?
Because this whole campy gameplay issue we are having is hungry box's fault to begin with, good player? yes very. Gayest player? Yes definitely. Hbox took jigg's gayness to the absolute extreme even before armada used young link,

Hbox plays gay with puff and beats armada> Aramada says **** this, picks up young link>
Armada outcamps hbox and wins> Hbox says **** this, outcamps aramada and w...loses> the future? We realize that out gaying a gay playstyle is not the answer.


If I were hbox I would have counter picked ness and went at it with armada's young link instead of playing the danger game and seeing who could win by a single percent/rest/bomb>dair.

But what I would really like to see is more low tiers getting played because of hbox and armada.
 
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