This goes out to everyone learning Underused Characters

[ozg82889]

i guess TL is underused as with the most updated tournament results list he is near the bottom of the neverused catagory which sucks because he has so much potential an so many match ups in his favor.

>.>

 

[old king coal]

Realistically yes there is. You can avoid them.

no, i think you will find that there will rarely be a match with two similar skilled players where a grab does not occur. even at pro level. in fact, especially at pro level.

 

[tyrone]

Nice post!
I main Bowser,Ganon,and DK. I recently entered a 2v2 tourney, and came in 3rd out of 12 teams,my team(bowser & ganon) ended up losing to snake & D3 it was frustrating but me and my teamate knew we could beat them in a mirror match. So next time we'll just have to show them how big of a skill gap there is between us since we know what characters are most abused right now.

 

[Taymond]

You're cool.

...

Really, though, what's your target here? Intelligent competitive smashers who understand what the tier list really is and know that it doesn't have to be self-promoting? Because... I'd guess they already know. And your apparent target demographic, headstrong, stubborn scrubs who glorify the tierlist, aren't going to care. There's really no reason this had to be said.

And there's nothing glorious about playing a lower tiered character. Nothing. When you choose a character, you accept its limitations. Those limitations are now your faults and no one else's. No snake player you come across is responsible for your character's limitations; you are. Character choice is as much a part of the game as ability.

 

[LuigiKing]

Does Luigi count as underused? Either way though, I totally agree with everything you said. It is so much more rewarding to have 'your own character', that not many people use. People think good ole Luigi is lame, and I am glad to show them wrong :D Being an underdog is so much more rewarding. Then again, this is all bias, considering every game all my characters are considered mid tier... Melee was Luigi and Ness, Brawl is Luigi and Sheik =/

 

[MusicalMike]

I state who my message goes out to in my original post. This message goes out to those who are trying to learn an underused character in this world of Snakes, Wolfs, and Warios. I made it because from what I have seen a lot of people who are trying to do so get discouraged and end up switching to the current winning characters. A few points, if you will.

1. I believe in Tier Lists. I do believe in superior characters. However I also believe that although we have found Good Characters, we haven’t found all of them. And how could we? The game has only been out a few months! Is it so wrong to believe that there are other tournament viable characters out there that could be dug up as long as one simply gave them the time to grow? This isn’t melee, our Tournament cast isn’t set in stone.

2. When I choose a character, I accept his limitations, of course. But it’s not like I didn’t also accept his advantages either. I mean even Metaknight and Snake have limitations. And that’s how you beat them and every other character in this game, by using your advantages against one’s limitations.

3. I gather from your post that you are one who prefers to use what is working right now to win. Although I do respect your view point as it is very logical just as I said in my Original Post, I’m saying that in the long run, in the future, that working on these more underused characters could be beneficial to our metagame, because it is very possible one could uncover tournament tactics for a current not so popular character such as say…Peach, or Luigi. And I know that what’s working now will probably work in the future as well…but as I said I still think tournament viable characters are out there, and we need to search for them instead of dropping potential metagame characteres everytime we get discouraged by a beating from a much more developed character at this point, such as Metaknight or Wario.

 

[DKKountry]

Kidd haz well-spokenness.

 

[Dark Sonic]

no, i think you will find that there will rarely be a match with two similar skilled players where a grab does not occur. even at pro level. in fact, especially at pro level.

Then Ice Climbers must be the most broken character ever, since they can infinite everybody right?

How about, you learn to space attacks instead, or have a secondary that I dunno, counters your hard matchups? Heck, a lot of Marths had Fox secondaries in melee, because they didn't like fighting Shiek (even though it really wasn't that bad). Now, you secondary doesn't nessecarrily have to be top tier, but they do have to have a suitible matchup against your main's worst enemy (which means, more likely high or top tier, but hey, play to win).

 

[Snowstalker]

Makes me happier to main Yoshi. I main characters because I enjoy them in their games, not because they're top tier. I do play Toon Link quite a bit, though...

 

[Deleted member]

I completely agree whole heartedly with the OP. I mainly play as Falco and Snake, but not because they are good, it's because I enjoy playing as them. For a while I thought about getting good with GaW, but then realized I didn't enjoy playing him. Notice how Wolf has been dropping in the supposed tier lists lately? And yet that has not deterred any Wolf mains from staying with him(and I respect them for that). My point is this: the meta game would not function without entrepreneurs. If you enjoy a char and want to get good with them, I say go for it.

 

[BentoBox]

I find it funny how people are suddenly labeled as entrepreneurs for choosing to main a character they judged viable before any tier lists were even being in the works. I'm sticking by Peach simply because its the character I feel the most comfortable playing, not because GimpyFish is my idol.

 

[Yuna]

Or it just doesn't matter. I pick my characters based on how much I like their style and how they play. I just happen to vehemently dislike having to work ten times as hard as my opponent to win. Peach is no longer fun for me to play. I used Zelda as a Low Tier in Melee and Brawl Zelda is hilariously powerful, so she's one of my mains.

Judge however you want, but I'm not any less "honourable" than you for not sticking with Peach and you're not any less commendable for going with a Low Tier character, even if you're making a conscious choice to play a Low Tier character.

I play whoever I like playing as and as I've already mentioned, I dislike having to work ten times harder than my opponent to win. I also like to Play to Win. I often gravitate towards characters who aren't low tier by default because of my instincts and the way I pick mains and to a lesser extent secondaries. Tertiaries and quarternaries are mostly "for fun" and I could care less if I had to work really hard as them.

Then again, Zelda was my secondary in Melee.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I find it funny how people are suddenly labeled as entrepreneurs for choosing to main a character they judged viable before any tier lists were even being in the works. I'm sticking by Peach simply because its the character I feel the most comfortable playing, not because GimpyFish is my idol.

I don't think that's what's going on at all. I chose to main Link from day one because he is who I mained in SSB64 and Melee; premature choosing of my main doesn't make me an 'Entrepreneur'. The fact that I continue to main Link, even though current Tier lists tell me not to, for the sake of exploring the metagame, however, does.

According to the OP, those people who main underused characters, even in the face of discouragement from a community whose mantra amounts to basically 'Just main the top tier characters, because that's how you win', are the people who eventually flesh out the metagame by providing vital gameplay data that would never have been acquired if everyone only played the top tier characters.

 

[Yuna]

I don't think that's what's going on at all. I chose to main Link from day one because he is who I mained in SSB64 and Melee; premature choosing of my main doesn't make me an 'Entrepreneur'. The fact that I continue to main Link, even though current Tier lists tell me not to, for the sake of exploring the metagame, however, does.

The tier list doesn't tell you to do anything. It's merely providing you with information with which you can do whatever you wish to.

According to the OP, those people who main underused characters, even in the face of discouragement from a community whose mantra amounts to basically 'Just main the top tier characters, because that's how you win', are the people who eventually flesh out the metagame by providing vital gameplay data that would never have been acquired if everyone only played the top tier characters.

As opposed to those who main characters who are not Low Tier, who couldn't possibly ever flesh out their characters' metagames?

The difference between ten people maining Ganondorf and ten people maining Snake is that the Snakes will most probably flesh out their metagame faster because they have one jillion other Snakes to help them do just that. I can flesh out Zelda's metagame as well as you can flesh out Link's. Even 7 years in Melee's lifespan, we were still fleshing out the Top Tiers' metagame.

People should not be commended or berated for who they main as. Someone who makes a conscious choice to main a Low Tier is doing what, really? Consciously maining someone with a lower chance of winning? This says one of the following:
* I like a challenge (Um, yeah. I can go play in chess tournaments and not go for the obvious check mates, too!)
* I like to be the underdog (I can go to go tournaments and self-atari frequently and then try for a comeback, too!)
* I like to play as a Low Tier for the bragging rights (Go away!)

No, I'm not berating you for maining a Low Tier. I'm just not commending you either. It's a simple choice. If you're consciously maining a Low Tier because he/she's a Low Tier, then, whatever. But you deserve no praise, not anymore than I do for maining Zeruda, Pito and Shota-Rinku. Sure, your chances of discovering something entirely new with Link are much higher than my chances of doing the same for my mains... meanwhile, I'll be winning or at least placing really well in tournaments.

Some of us Play to Win. I don't automatically go for the Top Tiers, but a part of my playing style is to not main characters that have to work ten times as hard as my opponent to win, so I naturally gravitate towards characters who do not end up being Low Tier. That said, I love the way Zeruda, Pito and Shota-Rinku play, which is why I main them. Ike is a tertiary for me, a character I play for fun. But I would never use him a tournament as he's so easily gimped.

No one's an entrepeneur for choosing a main based on the Tierlist, be it a Low Tier or a High Tier. They're an entrepeneur if they actually discover/introduce a new way of playing their characters. Chu Dat was an entrepeneur, Ken was an entrepeneur, Mike G. was an entrepeneur.

You, you, you and you over there who are merely maining Low Tiers for the glory, bragging rights or lulz? Not so much.

 

[MusicalMike]

Or it just doesn't matter. I pick my characters based on how much I like their style and how they play. I just happen to vehemently dislike having to work ten times as hard as my opponent to win. Peach is no longer fun for me to play. I used Zelda as a Low Tier in Melee and Brawl Zelda is hilariously powerful, so she's one of my mains.

Judge however you want, but I'm not any less "honourable" than you for not sticking with Peach and you're not any less commendable for going with a Low Tier character, even if you're making a conscious choice to play a Low Tier character.

I play whoever I like playing as and as I've already mentioned, I dislike having to work ten times harder than my opponent to win. I also like to Play to Win. I often gravitate towards characters who aren't low tier by default because of my instincts and the way I pick mains and to a lesser extent secondaries. Tertiaries and quarternaries are mostly "for fun" and I could care less if I had to work really hard as them.

Then again, Zelda was my secondary in Melee.

I never said it was any more honourable for me to use underused characters.
That's totally fine that you play to win, I'm not criticizing your preference. My message is going out to those who are trying to learn new ways to play to win by using the more underused characters. We entrepreneurs need people like you (and I mean that in a positive sense) who play to win, otherwise we have no metagame to try and alter.

Edit-Your Peach avy is an inverted white costumed melee Peach. kewl.

 

[BentoBox]

@Jack: But then again, while most agree upon the standings of the current top/high tiers, the rest is still pretty much open for discussion and only you, at this point, can decide whether you choose to be affected by these speculations or simply disregard them until concrete evidence is put on the table. Nobody should get brownie points for blindingly believing what others have to say and then react accordingly, in a way they see fit or entrepreneur-ish.

But anyways, it it makes you sleep at night... sure...

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yuna, I think what a lot of people miss is that maining an underused character is quite important as far as the metagame is concerned. Let's take a step back and view this objectively.

We have the current Top Tier right now, which is for all intents and purposes Snake and Metaknight. Because they are Top Tier, and because of the well-established 'Playing to Win' mantra, people will be maining these characters left and right. Their metagame will be fleshed out regardless because so many people are maining them. If I am a player choosing a main to win, then it would be beneficial to pick these two characters: not only are they (seemingly) inherently better, but with so many people playing them there is a wealth of info surrounding them.

As MookieRah has posted a thread about already, though, there is also playing to learn, and that's what is being discussed here. I can't speak for anyone else here, but as a player who has a vested interest in expanding the metagame as a whole (as opposed to just the metagame of two good characters), I have a great deal of respect for those players who main underused characters, even though a whole message board of people tell them, 'Hey, you're dumb for not playing to win and maining Snake or Metaknight.' And there is plenty of that going around. Go into any of the 'Who should I main?' threads popping up all over the place and you'll see a mountain of people who just say, 'Snake and Meta are the high tier right now, so ignore the rest of the cast and focus on them.'

Imagine if every single tournament player only played to win. No one would ever play anyone other than Snake or Metaknight. They would have a ton of in-depth information about every facet of their gameplay... but the rest of the cast wouldn't have anything. Imagine the opposite. If everyone only mained the most underused character at the time, we wouldn't have a solid metagame at all! It takes a balance of the two to have a well-rounded competitive scene, and that is (as tourney results have proved) part of what Brawl is lacking right now because everyone is ignoring the majority of the cast to only play Snake or Metaknight.

So, yeah, I totally respect players who have the balls to say, 'You know what? I'm not going to play to win all the time. Now, it's time for me to play to learn.' I think that is very important for the future of the game.

 

[Yuna]

I never said it was any more honourable for me to use underused characters.
That's totally fine that you play to win, I'm not criticizing your preference. My message is going out to those who are trying to learn new ways to play to win by using the more underused characters. We entrepreneurs need people like you (and I mean that in a positive sense) who play to win, otherwise we have no metagame to try and alter.

Edit-Your Peach avy is an inverted white costumed melee Peach. kewl.

Only, you're saying that people who make a conscious choice of maining Low Tiers are entrepeneurs and should be commended for doing so. This implies maining someone who's not a Low Tier isn't being entrepeneural and many believe this, that maining a Low Tier is somehow "more honourable" than maining a non-Low Tier.

That someone who's sticking to Link in tournaments should receive ample praise despite not placing well at all when a Zelda shouldn't because she's High. In fact, I've played people who've said "Well, so what if I lost? My character is a Low Tier and yours is not!".

 

[MusicalMike]

Show me the tier list you're talking about.

Edit- I do see the points you make about how I excluded the fact that people who use Top Tiers can be entrepreneurs, and that I may have been a bit biased towards the underused community in my post, and I apologize for my misleadment. People who use the current top tiers as of now can also be entrepreneurs, reinventing the way Top tier characters are being played right now.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, I think what a lot of people miss is that maining an underused character is quite important as far as the metagame is concerned. Let's take a step back and view this objectively.

So? You still shouldn't be referring to yourselves as "entrepeneurs" just for maining Low Tiers. So what if you do? So what if you might stumble upon entirely new ways to play your character? Until you actually do, you're just another Competitive (if even that) Smasher.

We have the current Top Tier right now, which is for all intents and purposes Snake and Metaknight. Because they are Top Tier, and because of the well-established 'Playing to Win' mantra, people will be maining these characters left and right. Their metagame will be fleshed out regardless because so many people are maining them. If I am a player choosing a main to win, then it would be beneficial to pick these two characters: not only are they (seemingly) inherently better, but with so many people playing them there is a wealth of info surrounding them.

Who one mains should be entirely up to oneself according to how one likes to play. Some people like to win so much they'll ***** the very best of the best. Some of us just like characters who do not suck and with styles fitting for us.

As MookieRah has posted a thread about already, though, there is also playing to learn, and that's what is being discussed here.

Only you're calling yourselves "entrepeneurs" and regarding yourselves as "greater than thou'" by definition.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but as a player who has a vested interest in expanding the metagame as a whole (as opposed to just the metagame of two good characters), I have a great deal of respect for those players who main underused characters, even though a whole message board of people tell them, 'Hey, you're dumb for not playing to win and maining Snake or Metaknight.' And there is plenty of that going around. Go into any of the 'Who should I main?' threads popping up all over the place and you'll see a mountain of people who just say, 'Snake and Meta are the high tier right now, so ignore the rest of the cast and focus on them.'

1) Pay respect to where it's due. Only those who actually do important discoveries for Brawl's metagame should be deemed entrepeneurs. As far as I know, you're just another Link-mainer.
2) People telling others to main Snake or Meta-Knight just because are idiots. Stop bringing up what idiots do on Smashboards just because you can point at them and go "Hey, I can use this in my arguments!". That's not good debating.
3) No one's (credible) saying "ignore the rest of the cast". For one thing, I have 3 mains, 4 secondaries, 2 tertiaries and at least 2 quarternaries.

So, yeah, I totally respect players who have the balls to say, 'You know what? I'm not going to play to win all the time. Now, it's time for me to play to learn.' I think that is very important for the future of the game.

Everyone's playing to learn (unless they're actively refusing to, even Casual players or players who only play once or twice a year). Some people learn faster than others because their characters' metagames might already be more fleshed out.

Maining a Low Tier/underused character is not by definition any better than maining a non-Low Tier. It's what you do with your character that's important.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I think you're mistaken, Kidd 01. Yuna's avatar is totally a blue-beaked bird.

EDIT @ Yuna: I wasn't aware anyone was claiming to be better than anyone else in this thread. *looks around* Nope, no one is saying they are better for maining an underused character. That's what I thought. The OP defined 'Entrepreneur', and I think you are giving it an ultra-positive connotation that wasn't implied. The OP (and certainly I) had never implied that 'Tier Titans' were any worse than 'Entrepreneurs'. We only said that those people who main underused characters and who are surrounded the the largest Sirlin-quotation community on the Internet (hyperbole) shouldn't be discouraged by a few tournament losses and should 'keep on keeping on'. No one is inherently better than anyone else for their main, and no one ever implied that.

 

[MusicalMike]

So? You still shouldn't be referring to yourselves as "entrepeneurs" just for maining Low Tiers. So what if you do? So what if you might stumble upon entirely new ways to play your character? Until you actually do, you're just another Competitive (if even that) Smasher.


Who one mains should be entirely up to oneself according to how one likes to play. Some people like to win so much they'll ***** the very best of the best. Some of us just like characters who do not suck and with styles fitting for us.


Only you're calling yourselves "entrepeneurs" and regarding yourselves as "greater than thou'" by definition.


1) Pay respect to where it's due. Only those who actually do important discoveries for Brawl's metagame should be deemed entrepeneurs. As far as I know, you're just another Link-mainer.
2) People telling others to main Snake or Meta-Knight just because are idiots. Stop bringing up what idiots do on Smashboards just because you can point at them and go "Hey, I can use this in my arguments!". That's not good debating.
3) No one's (credible) saying "ignore the rest of the cast". For one thing, I have 3 mains, 4 secondaries, 2 tertiaries and at least 2 quarternaries.


Everyone's playing to learn (unless they're actively refusing to, even Casual players or players who only play once or twice a year). Some people learn faster than others because their characters' metagames might already be more fleshed out.

Maining a Low Tier/underused character is not by definition any better than maining a non-Low Tier. It's what you do with your character that's important.

I actually agree with your post, but if you would please I believe I caused some misunderstandings with you so please let me clarify. Your definition of Entrepreneur fits in with mine. However I believe what you mean to say is that people such as Mike.G, Ken and what-have-you are SUCCESSFUL Entrepreneurs. The definition in my Original Post...the literal definition of the word applies to ALL Entrepreneurs, struggling, successful, the lot of them. In my OP I was simply attempting to motivate struggling underused char mains by saying " keep at it, and who knows? Maybe you'll be the next Mike.G of your day".

I do not mean to claim that entrepreneurs are anymore "glorious" than "Tier Titans" (which is honestly misleading in it's own sense because there actually isn't a tier list, lol my bad).

 

[GoldenGlove]

Maining a Low Tier/underused character is not by definition any better than maining a non-Low Tier. It's what you do with your character that's important.

Exactly. Kidd, I think your essay should stipulate that you have to win with an underused character to be considered an entrepreneur. Sure, it's important to the metagame that people play these characters, but Random Low-Placing Sonic Player #29 isn't going to have any bearing on the metagame whatsoever.

 

[MusicalMike]

Right...I meant to imply that message, but if people aren't getting it...then that is my fault, and I shouldn't have been so indirect with my message. I will modify my essay to be more centered around that idea, and hopefully will give out the message in a more constructed manner. Thanks for helping me out with this guys, I appreciate it.

 

[otg]

You will always find someone who mains even the most obscure characters. Even if 50% of the community is maining the top tiers, you will still have people developing the low tier metagame. I stand by this, people main Snake and MK for a reason, they are clearly better than a majority of the cast and stand out because of their inherit broken characteristics.

The problem lies more in Brawl itself than the characters. The game is very limiting in terms of options, and getting around the brokenness is hard. You really can't "out-tech" someone like you could in Melee, which of course doesn't make Brawl a bad game (or a Melee > Brawl mentality). It just makes character strengths and tiers even more relevant than before.

 

[Geist]

This is actually a good thread, one of the few in the brawl boards. It's a good argument, I have to admit, when I clicked on the thread I was expecting someone to say "stop playing ur lowtire and paly snake"
or something like that...

Personally, I don't think I fall directly into either of your catagories. I make it a priority to be able to play with virtually every character to make up for cases that require high tier characters. Just to be prepared, I'll practice with Snake in case of metaknights, and I'll practice with ROB in case of Snakes. Stuff like that.

But what I wanted to say has kind of been touched by the post above. When snake players picked up snake, before any metagame was developed, Snake seemed just as evenly matched as the other characters. But after a short time, it became common knowledge that his hitboxes were broken, his priority was insane (look at his uptilt and tell me someone wasn't drinking in development) and he has overall advantages that make him superior to other characters.
But what you said is very true. Other characters undoubtably have some untouched potential, and have not been fully exploited because people rush over to the higher tiers. The Metagame is far from complete, and I think alot of people should try and focus more on the other 35 characters -_-

A big problem with the Brawl tier list at the moment though, is that since the metagame is so unexplored, top tiers quickly dominate the tourney scene. I don't even think I need an example to prove this. At least in the prior Smash games, a mid-low tier or so could place well high in tourneys without being completely destroyed. A good example is Skler's Link, Mango's Jiggs, Kage's Ganon or Hugs's Samus in previous tournaments. In Brawl, it seems that there are two tiers. God Tier, and Joke/Trash tier.
Alot of people I know refer it as the Pit line. Anyone below pit is practically unplayable because of the tier balances.

I really hope to see some progress in tiers. As it is now, the tier list is more specific and dominant in brawl than melee.

 

[Sosuke]

This is one of the many many reasons i play TL. =)

 

[SlashTalon]

You're cool.

...

Really, though, what's your target here? Intelligent competitive smashers who understand what the tier list really is and know that it doesn't have to be self-promoting? Because... I'd guess they already know. And your apparent target demographic, headstrong, stubborn scrubs who glorify the tierlist, aren't going to care. There's really no reason this had to be said.

And there's nothing glorious about playing a lower tiered character. Nothing. When you choose a character, you accept its limitations. Those limitations are now your faults and no one else's. No snake player you come across is responsible for your character's limitations; you are. Character choice is as much a part of the game as ability.

The thing that you clearly missed, and he even says is that this game is young (true) and that people should use the underused characters in hopes of unlocking future tourney potential.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

I have been playing with Sonic since the game game out, and I've pretty much given up all hope of winning consistently 1v1.

 

[m@gicman]

I'm an entrepreneur and a tier-titan.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

*applauds, but laughs too*

I enjoyed the post, but it was way too... "I had a dream, that one day..." You get the point? It was almost a bit too serious. It's just a game, so don't get all preachy.

All in all, however, I agree wholeheartedly. My dream character, to play as, was Link. He really was, and I would love to play him, but Wolf fit my play style better (and Link's recovery... just disgusting). I would like people to start using disadvantaged characters, because I'm sure that people can win with them.

I've always thought Snake and Metaknight didn't matter. Why? They have an advantage, they have a set potential, but us, the smashers? lol Link and Bowser will lose to Snake and Metaknight, fine, but sorry, not our Links and our Bowsers. The smasher makes all the difference. With hard work and smart play, the advantage Snake and Metaknight have over the rest: no longer applies.

...I use this loosely of course. Don't go thinking, anyone who reads this, your god and Snake and Metaknight don't matter. They do matter. One barely has lag and the other slides around incessantly to the point of insanity.

Developing the metagame is important. If Metaknight and Snake are so paid attention to, no one will realized there may be a better character there.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You main Wolf and you're whining about LINK'S recovery? XD

 

[Dark.Pch]

Or it just doesn't matter. I pick my characters based on how much I like their style and how they play. I just happen to vehemently dislike having to work ten times as hard as my opponent to win. Peach is no longer fun for me to play. I used Zelda as a Low Tier in Melee and Brawl Zelda is hilariously powerful, so she's one of my mains.

Judge however you want, but I'm not any less "honourable" than you for not sticking with Peach and you're not any less commendable for going with a Low Tier character, even if you're making a conscious choice to play a Low Tier character.

I play whoever I like playing as and as I've already mentioned, I dislike having to work ten times harder than my opponent to win. I also like to Play to Win. I often gravitate towards characters who aren't low tier by default because of my instincts and the way I pick mains and to a lesser extent secondaries. Tertiaries and quarternaries are mostly "for fun" and I could care less if I had to work really hard as them.

Then again, Zelda was my secondary in Melee.

This post right here kills your other post Yuna. You play to win, thus you care about tiers and all that more than anything. Thats why you dropped Peach. You dont wanna work so hard to get a win when you can take the easy road.

And once again, there is nothing wrong with it. But face facts. People get tired of seeing the same characters over and over winning. Top/high tier players may not care, all they wanna do is win and make money. But doing that with someone so called as.......idk.......Peach, it trully shows how much work they but into it and all that paid off. beating characters that are so called the best/cheap/ w/e.

And yes people do get more praise for getting far with so called characters that people say cant do Jack in competitive smash. But once again we dont care. All we care about is too have fun and if we get far with under used characters, thats more win for us then if high/top tiers players was to win a tournament.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

You main Wolf and you're whining about LINK'S recovery? XD

Wolf's recovery isn't bad. It's just the people that can't get used to it that make it bad. I main Wolf, and his recovery works out PERFECTLY fine for me (that's if I'm paying attention). When you play him long enough, it doesn't become a problem. Link, on the other hand, has an Up B that takes him absolutely nowhere. In this situation, I'm talking about length. Wolf's is farther than Link's. Plus, it's hilarious to kick people in the face with Wolf's recovery. Then there's that beautiful...beautiful sweetspot on the > B. *is in love with it* When some chases me to gimp me, they're automatically dead if I'm in the right spot, which I usually am because I place myself there.

Recovery wise, Wolf is fine with me. The only reason I ever die in that game is because Snake has AAA and utilt.

 

[sonic 12111]

well is g&w one of those entrupuhooha things and why is it so easy for me to kill metaknight but i can never kill snakes, zss and ikes? but also ddd and kirby are easy to kill for g&w too

 

[Yuna]

This post right here kills your other post Yuna. You play to win, thus you care about tiers and all that more than anything. Thats why you dropped Peach. You dont wanna work so hard to get a win when you can take the easy road.

Gah, it's so annoying to have to quote people who colour their text. Anyway, surprise, surprise, once again, you don't get one of my posts.

I never said I did not care about tiers at all. Just because you Play to Win does not mean you automatically care about tiers, either. It depends on how much you Play to Win. Are you saying Azen doesn't Play to Win when he picks characters using Random Select for tournaments or when he consciously goes Low Tier all the way? Are you saying Taj isn't Playing to Win when he goes Mewtwo for most of a tournament, resorting only to Fox when facing really hard opponents?

You can Play to Win and still play as Mewtwo or Pichu. People have done so, I know people who've done so, I've seen people doing so, I've played people doing so. Of course, if they stick to their Low Tiers all the way, they usually don't end up in the Top 5 (unless they're Azen) because eventually, their Low Tiers won't keep up.

I do not look up tier lists and pick a character high up on that list when choosing mains. I actually play the game (shocker, I know!) and decide who my main should be based on how much I like the way the character(s) play. One thing I'm quite fond of is to not have to work ten times as hard as the best characters in the game to win. That, coupled with my ability to recognize strength and how I like my characters usually lead me to characters that end up pretty high in the tiers.

But it's not a conscious choice to go with a Top or High Tier, it's just a conscious choice to not go with someone I feel sucks Competitively or just has to work way too hard.

It's not about "Taking the easy road", it's about not taking the really hard road. The one is not exactly the same as the other.

And once again, there is nothing wrong with it. But face facts. People get tired of seeing the same characters over and over winning. Top/high tier players may not care, all they wanna do is win and make money. But doing that with someone so called as.......idk.......Peach, it trully shows how much work they but into it and all that paid off. beating characters that are so called the best/cheap/ w/e.

Competitive Fighting games are not about diversity or maximized "fun" or what have you. People can get tired of as much as they want to. I don't care. A lot of people don't care. It's not about the most exciting gameplay to watch, in fact, if you want that, what are you doing watching or playing Brawl?

Peach will never win a major Brawl tournament... or even place Top 3. She just won't. Stop dreaming.

And yes people do get more praise for getting far with so called characters that people say cant do Jack in competitive smash. But once again we dont care. All we care about is too have fun and if we get far with under used characters, thats more win for us then if high/top tiers players was to win a tournament.

They can do Jack. They just can't do nearly as much as many others. Being a Low Tier doesn't necessarily mean you suck in Competitive play. Sucking means you suck. And if you suck too much, you usually end up Low Tier.

But sometimes, you do not universally suck. Melee Zelda didn't really suck that much against the Top and High Tiers. She sucked against the Low Tiers, which is why she ended up so low. But pit her up against Peach and it ain't that huge a wall for her to climb.

"All we care about is to have fun" - I care about having fun, too. I'm just able to recognize that maximized fun is not what Competitive play is all about. You can have fun while playing Competitively. But sometimes, it's not the right time and place for it

"If we get far with underused characters [...] more win for us than high/top tier players." - Why? Because you just did well with an underused (ergo often Low Tier) character? Whoopidity doo, you managed to play a character really well. How... unusual.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ha ha ha. I expected something like this from you dude. And you dont get it once again. didnt people get on you about stuff like this in the Peach area?

People also dont care that you or anyone else would pick a character thats so called top tier cause they just wanna win. Did I not say in my post people can play how they want or just dont care? Just like you got your opinions I got mines. People can play just as competitive and to win with a low tier..........and you would care because?...Thats right, you dont and have no need too. you play to win and thats that. people can play to win and still have fun.

Not everyone is the same. winning with a low tier or w/e means jack to you. but it means something to other people who use them. And thanks for admitting they can do something even for a lot tier. But it will be much more work. some people dont wanna do that. others dont care and it will be much more rewarding when yon they pull it off. You have to see this from both sides. Not just one. And if you do, then this talk is over.

And woopie a high tier character won another tournament. Thats sure is something to get all excited about and throw a party for.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Even Falcon has a top 8 doesn't he?

 

[Yuna]

Ha ha ha. I expected something like this from you dude. And you dont get it once again. didnt people get on you about stuff like this in the Peach area?

Your failure at reading comprehension is still the same I see.

People also dont care that you or anyone else would pick a character thats so called top tier cause they just wanna win. Did I not say in my post people can play how they want or just dont care? Just like you got your opinions I got mines. People can play just as competitive and to win with a low tier..........and you would care because?...Thats right, you dont and have no need too. you play to win and thats that. people can play to win and still have fun.

What part of "I do not pick characters by looking at the tier list" was too Mushroomy Kingdomish for you to understand?

In fact, Peach wasn't ever a Top Tier and neither are Zelda, Pit or Shota Link just because at this current moment, Meta-Knight and Snake just overshadow them by so much they cannot be placed in the same tier together.

People can play to win as a Low Tier. I would not care more about that than I would care about someone doing the same with a non-Low Tier. I still see a lot of people (you, for instance), giving praise to those people and scorn to those who are not a part of "those people". This is blatantly wrong.

Not everyone is the same. winning with a low tier or w/e means jack to you. but it means something to other people who use them. And thanks for admitting they can do something even for a lot tier. But it will be much more work. some people dont wanna do that. others dont care and it will be much more rewarding when yon they pull it off. You have to see this from both sides. Not just one. And if you do, then this talk is over.

It means a lot if you win at all... because you just won. Now it might mean a lot personally to you if you managed to do it against a character against whom you have a really bad matchup and that would be impressive (if the opponent knew what he was doing).

But that's not all that's happening. What's happening are people having the attitude that it's not at all impressive if I place Top 10 with Zelda because she's so good, anyway. But it is really impressive when, say, you place Top 20 as Peach. You should get tons of praise while I get scorned for being a "tier *****".

In fact, you're showing that kind of snobby attitude right now. I do not judge people based on who they main (only their attitudes). Can you honestly say you do not?

And woopie a high tier character won another tournament. Thats sure is something to get all excited about and throw a party for.

Why must everything be all about fun and excitement? This is Competitive play. At certain points, "fun" cannot be maximized. Yes, so another High Tier just won a tournament. Um... that's life? Peach will never win a major tournament no matter how much you try, she just won't (unless her metagame drastically changes). Waiting for that to happen is futile. Clapping yourselves on the back, regarding yourselves as holier than others who do not play Low Tiers, that's arrogance and quite frankly, stupidity.

I've mained Low Tiers in my days, by the way, because I still liked the way they play. I just dislike the way Peach plays in Brawl.

 

[Dark.Pch]

People can still play to win and have fun. The hell you think the true nature of a video game is for? People for get that, so they just wanna win and when they dont they get really anrgy and........*looks at halo 3 players* That crap runis it for people who just wanna play and have a good time. You think we wanna see and deal with people like that? thats no run at all.

Let this go, this is pointless. Just thought I state my opinion with this. Im not about to battle with you again. Its a waste of time. See, play and like brawl as you want.

Also this was not about Peach and her winning tournaments. But I'll make sure I'll be the one to make you eat those words. And I dont wanna hear "if her metagames changes" People judge so soon, but its your opinon so oh well.

And Kidd awsome job on this thread. I see you have inspired lots of people to work hard.