The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Supreme Dirt]

We're not banning the players. We're banning the character.

Top MK mains can feel free to learn another character.

Then again I play like half the cast, so I suppose it seems like second nature to me to simply play another character.

 

[Mekos]

M2k is going to quit. And I garuntee u half of the non-smashers who ever watch smash know a smasher named M2k and tune in to see the top player play.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

maybe just for the -small- chance of him losing

 

[Supreme Dirt]

M2k is going to quit. And I garuntee u half of the non-smashers who ever watch smash know a smasher named M2k and tune in to see the top player play.

I couldn't care less whether or not people actually watch this game or not. I don't play because other people are watching.

Also you're heavily implying that M2K is the top player, which I'd disagree with.

 

[Mekos]

ugh then you are proving that all u care about is your selfish goals and what is not best for the community. Which is what this argument is about. WHAT IS BEST FOR THE COMMUNITY not yourself individually.

 

[Kewkky]

Funny, I can guarantee that most of the smashers tune in to livestreams of nationals to see who's gonna be the next one to knock off M2K.

Thing is, M2K doesn't make the community. Players make the community. If he leaves, someone else will take his place as "the face of smash". Plenty of damage he's done to the community already. I will never say 'good riddance!", but I WILL say it'll give the community one less headache.

Also, what's wrong with playing for oneself? Isn't that what you should do to even begin to strive for the best? I play for myself, I have fun when I play. My fun shouldn't revolve around others, I'm no seal in a circus playing horns to entertain others.

 

[Mekos]

That was just one example. I'm not saying he is the community. Please understand what I am saying instead of trying to make it something different.

But I understand your opinion.

 

[Kewkky]

That IS what I understood you were saying. Else I would've written a different post on what I understood then. :|

Also:

ugh then you are proving that all u care about is your selfish goals and what is not best for the community. Which is what this argument is about. WHAT IS BEST FOR THE COMMUNITY not yourself individually.

Are you sure banning MK isn't for the best? I mean, the poll was ~75% in favor of a ban. Would you cater to that 25% or the 75%?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Y'know, Mekos, I seem to get the feeling you just really, really, really, really don't want M2K to quit. Which is pretty selfish.

After all, I know a couple of people I really, really, really, really don't want to quit, and they will if MK remains legal. Selfish? Maybe. But probably no more selfish than you are.

And if 75% of the community wants MK banned, well then I guess we should be catering to the majority of players, not the small 25% that thinks he should be legal.

 

[Mekos]

To talk about percents that doesn't seem big enuff to go through with the ban. It would need to be more like 90% in my opinion. We are not the biggest community you know.
Kewkky the only reason I am arguing my points is because mk is NOT broken. People just want an easy way out in my opinion. People to me are mainly mad because of this scene. They **** someone and they bring out a pocket mk and get beat. I understand, this has even happened to me. But I didn't get mad and I went to the training field. Now, with my new style I will be disapointed in myself to lose to a pocket mk. They all do the same basic stuff. Focus on reading them. They all up b when nervous or pressured hard. They all tornado at certain distances. Of course I'm speaking generally but they have the same basic habits. For example, almost ALL Robs gyro and shoot the laser right after. In playing smash you have to learn your opponents habits and learn what is the best option for you to do. It's not always to counter attack after your shield has been pressured.

Sorry if that sounds like an elitist statement. I am trying to sound like someone who has figured something out and is anxious to share it with my fellow smashers!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Just because people vote for or against something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If that were the case, then they would make polls for stages to get legalized or banned and all we would end up with would be three neutral stages

 

[Supreme Dirt]

To talk about percents that doesn't seem big enuff to go through with the ban. It would need to be more like 90% in my opinion. We are not the biggest community you know.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wow, just wow.

Obviously no laws should ever be passed in any government without 90% support, since after all, there's far less people in any senate/parliament then there are people in the smash community.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

good thing the community doesnt go by mekos standards

 

[Player-1]

Many people have quit because of MK and many people will continue to quit if MK remains legal while a handful of people will quit if mk gets banned and handful will come back if he gets banned. It's pretty clear what's best for the community.

 

[Kewkky]

Just because people vote for or against something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If that were the case, then they would make polls for stages to get legalized or banned and all we would end up with would be three neutral stages

Because obviously the entire community hates every stage except 3 neutrals, and they would jump in to vote for BAN every stage in a heartbeat.

Stop strawmanning.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

But if Jebus doesn't strawman then he'd have to stop arguing.

WAIT I SEE WHERE YOU'RE GOING.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because obviously the entire community hates every stage except 3 neutrals, and they would jump in to vote for BAN every stage in a heartbeat.

Stop strawmanning.

If we just did everything by votes, this game would lose a lot of competitive depth.

I wasn't quoting anyone when I said that so I wasn't arguing with anyone which means I wasn't strawmanning. I was simply pointing out that we can't make decisions like this based off of a poll

 

[Mekos]

lol taking that statement and saying that's what I meant for everything. This is my last point and I'm out.

This is proof that people lack the drive to just do what it takes. At EVERY tourney I have been to including Nationals, regionals, and locals. People do not take the opportunity to practice and get better. The only way they will take the opportunity seriously is if it is a money match. And it is obviously linked to a pride issue. Who cares if you lose. Learn from the loss.

This can even be seen online in AIB lolol. People will not go their main or play foreal unless it is a ladder match. This baffles me. No other community have I been to where people don't just play even if money is not on the line. This is crucial because you grow from serious experience. Speaking generally again. Of course in a non-tourney match you might not go 100% mental power but cmon yall know what I am talking about. We are not SF4 where there are thousands and mm's is the only way to make it fair to play someone who other wise wouldn't care.

 

[Life]

[Get better scrubz]

(snipped, obviously)
Tell ADHD that. For that matter, tell Ally that. (A bit hypocritical of me, as part of SRC, but meh, hypocrisy doesn't mean incorrectness)

 

[WindMajor]

Excuse me Mekos, but why are you speaking on behalf of a large portion of the community like if what you are saying is 100% true?

"People want MK banned because they want the easy way out."

From what source did you excavate all this data from, that helped you reach this poor conclusion, and why haven't you cited it to us yet? Also, why wasn't I informed that there was a survey or study of some sort, or stumbled upon the results while modding these forums? I voted in the poll, I should've been asked something. Also, I read every post in this forum, I should have come across it already.

Unless....

Nothing has ever been asked, and you're just putting blanket statements like "You guys just want the easy way out" over the entire pro-ban from your back pocket because it helps support your argument.

To Mekos and everyone who uses this argument, stop assuming things. Either get your facts straight, or don't argue the point at all. It's foolish and sickening.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

(snipped, obviously)
Tell ADHD that. For that matter, tell Ally that.

Ally beat M2K with his Snake in some recent tournament. M2K already said that ADHD doesn't change his play style. Also, it's not like you see ADHD lose to random MKs. He only loses to top level MKs

 

[Kewkky]

Mekos you're assuming that we really don't care about getting better. That is far from the truth. EVERYONE wants to get better. Thing is, you still haven't experienced an MK who's learned your character's MU. It gets too hard to win once that happens, MK knows what your attacks can do, what are Lucas's options, how to remain safe, blablabla... If MK was never to be banned, you'd eventually learn that by experiencing it yourself. We're not lazy, just tired of going through the same thing over and over again. As we get better at the MU, the MK mainer gets better too, and guess who's the one with the advantage? It just so happens that you got better faster than your MK opponents did, but it'll catch up to you eventually, it always does.

MK is just like Jin Kazama of Tekken 4, not good enough to be banned, but bad enough that the community hated him and the game's scene slowly disintegrated thanks to no one wanting to ban him.

If we just did everything by votes, this game would lose a lot of competitive depth.

I wasn't quoting anyone when I said that so I wasn't arguing with anyone which means I wasn't strawmanning. I was simply pointing out that we can't make decisions like this based off of a poll

Yes you were, you changed the topic from "reasons why we should or shouldn't ban MK" to how the majority can't be trusted or else the competitive depth of the game would crumble. You probably didn't notice, but that was an attempt at changing the topic and/or beating my argument in the process.

 

[Steam]

M2k is going to quit. And I garuntee u half of the non-smashers who ever watch smash know a smasher named M2k and tune in to see the top player play.

I'm pretty sure most people just turn off the stream once it's to the end of the tourney and only MK dittos.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Mekos you're assuming that we really don't care about getting better. That is far from the truth. EVERYONE wants to get better. Thing is, you still haven't experienced an MK who's learned your character's MU. It gets too hard to win once that happens, MK knows what your attacks can do, what are Lucas's options, how to remain safe, blablabla... If MK was never to be banned, you'd eventually learn that by experiencing it yourself. We're not lazy, just tired of going through the same thing over and over again. As we get better at the MU, the MK mainer gets better too, and guess who's the one with the advantage? It just so happens that you got better faster than your MK opponents did, but it'll catch up to you eventually, it always does.

MK is just like Jin Kazama of Tekken 4, not good enough to be banned, but bad enough that the community hated him and the game's scene slowly disintegrated thanks to no one wanting to ban him.

But you also have to remember that you are playing against a human who makes mistakes and has patterns. If you main a character that doesn't do that well against MK, you are just going to have to play that much better than your opponent or pick up a character that does good against MK (Fox, Diddy, Snake, Falco etc.)

 

[Kewkky]

But you also have to remember that you are playing against a human who makes mistakes and has patterns. If you main a character that doesn't do that well against MK, you are just going to have to play that much better than your opponent.

How much is "that much better than your opponent"? Because from what I'm aware, both ADHD and Ally are pro-ban and they're "that much better than the opponent" when playing against none of the tip-top MK mainers. Both the MK and Ally/ADHD are human and make mistakes, and ADHD/Ally are notorious for being good against MKs, so why are they pro-ban? Surely there must be something behind it all, right?

 

[-Ran]

The converse is true for the MK player. You're a human, and you will make mistakes that he can punish. Humanity Cancel, the new Smash AT.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How much is "that much better than your opponent"? Because from what I'm aware, both ADHD and Ally are pro-ban and they're "that much better than the opponent" when playing against none of the tip-top MK mainers. Both the MK and Ally/ADHD are human and make mistakes, and ADHD/Ally are notorious for being good against MKs, so why are they pro-ban? Surely there must be something behind it all, right?

Ally said he was pro ban because he thinks the game is more fun that way. Not a good reason. ADHD just needs to adapt better and not continue to do the same things and expect them to work. It makes sense that it was only when he started consistently losing for doing the same thing over and over that he became pro ban http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262491

 

[Toronto Joe]

^^^ exposed

 

[Kewkky]

Nice going, linking me to a '10 post he made as soon as he won Pound 4. Why not link me to this thread instead? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307450&highlight=banned

Also... Who doesn't like tapping to MK's song?

 

[Doc King]

Ally said he was pro ban because he thinks the game is more fun that way. Not a good reason. ADHD just needs to adapt better and not continue to do the same things and expect them to work. It makes sense that it was only when he started consistently losing for doing the same thing over and over that he became pro ban http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262491

First of all, that link is old. Second of all, we DID try to adapt, but it didn't work. Mk just kept getting stronger and stronger. Why do you guys think that we didn't adapt for all of these years?

Also 75% of the community imo is a good amount for a ban.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Nice going, linking me to a '10 post he made as soon as he won Pound 4. Why not link me to this thread instead? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307450&highlight=banned

Also... Who doesn't like tapping to MK's song?

Exactly!!! You had player like M2K who actually took the time to learn what he was doing wrong in the match up and try to fix it. Then you have ADHD who didn't fix it and instead, is trying to take the easy way out.

 

[WindMajor]

If you want to accept that as truth, then fine by me.

That's one player. Do that same thing for the other 686 players who voted in favor of a ban in this poll. Don't assume that ADHD's intentions are also my intentions or any other players' intentions as well.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If you want to accept that as truth, then fine by me.

That's one player. Do that same thing for the other 686 players who voted in favor of a ban in this poll. Don't assume that ADHD's intentions are also my intentions or any other players' intentions as well.

I could, but it wouldn't matter since half of those players lose to other characters that aren't MK and even more of those players would still not have a chance to make it in the money if MK was gone

 

[Steam]

I could, but it wouldn't matter since half of those players lose to other characters that aren't MK and even more of those players would still not have a chance to make it in the money if MK was gone

maybe that isn't the point of people wanting him gone?

 

[WindMajor]

Jebus, I'm referring to this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13409354&postcount=7740

If you don't want to check the intentions for the rest of the 686 players who voted pro-ban, then you shouldn't use the argument I put under quotation marks at all, unless you're replacing "people" with "ADHD", or any other specific names.


And again:

I could, but it wouldn't matter since half of those players lose to other characters that aren't MK and even more of those players would still not have a chance to make it in the money if MK was gone

What source can you cite to support this claim, or did you just assume it was true and roll with that?

 

[popsofctown]

If you want to accept that as truth, then fine by me.

That's one player. Do that same thing for the other 686 players who voted in favor of a ban in this poll. Don't assume that ADHD's intentions are also my intentions or any other players' intentions as well.

This is very true... at this point I don't think MK needs to be banned due to metagame dominance, breaking the CP system, or most of the other standard arguments. I only think he needs to be banned because LGL is a flawed rule, and banning the characters with degenerate stalling (at the very most, 3. Probably, 1.) is cleaner and more appropriate.

Everyone has different reasons. Anti-ban repeatedly brings up the crappiest ones for a tired strawmanning routine.

 

[Mekos]

(snipped, obviously)
Tell ADHD that. For that matter, tell Ally that. (A bit hypocritical of me, as part of SRC, but meh, hypocrisy doesn't mean incorrectness)

yo yo yo I never said that. Someone quoted my text and altered that.
Oops i quoted the wrong thing but I meant the "get better scrubs" part.

 

[Conviction]

Inb4topicchangeorstrawmanfromjebus

Oh and @marc: good point. I retract my earlier statement.

 

[Kewkky]

Exactly!!! You had player like M2K who actually took the time to learn what he was doing wrong in the match up and try to fix it. Then you have ADHD who didn't fix it and instead, is trying to take the easy way out.

Where did ADHD say that, again? Link please.

If you don't have a link then I'll be very disappointed. :\

I could, but it wouldn't matter since half of those players lose to other characters that aren't MK and even more of those players would still not have a chance to make it in the money if MK was gone

So since they lost to other characters that aren't MK their votes shouldn't count? What about MK mainers? They lose to other characters that aren't MK, should their votes count? What about people like ADHD, who you claim wants to take the easy way out, should their votes count?

In the end, no one's vote will count if we follow what you've said so far. Everyone loses to MK. And everyone loses to non-MK characters.

Would you rather have all the people who never make it into the money gone, or a few MK mainers? From what I understand, those guys who never make it into the money give US money, and they far outnumber the MK mains out there.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Jebus, I'm referring to this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13409354&postcount=7740

If you don't want to check the intentions for the rest of the 686 players who voted pro-ban, then you shouldn't use the argument I put under quotation marks at all, unless you're replacing "people" with "ADHD", or any other specific names.


And again:



What source can you cite to support this claim, or did you just assume it was true and roll with that?

I could prove this right but they haven't released the full results of the polls (people who voted)