The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

or I just use the invinci. frames from a wake up :-/

If that's possible, then why don't you do that to avoid his smash follow ups?

 

[Conviction]

Lol fair enough Abraham, I'll just wait until me and judo (and others) get more data.

@Jebus: because diddy can bait and punish where as the car doesn't have a mind and is easy to see coming. Are you serious? LOL

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lol fair enough Abraham, I'll just wait until me and judo (and others) get more data.

@Jebus: because diddy can bait and punish where as the car doesn't have a mind and is easy to see coming. Are you serious? LOL

not when you are tripping on a peel. Trip to trip lag to getting hit by moving car


Legalize Japes!!!

 

[Kuro~]

I could see onett legal tbh. It could serve as a good cp for many more characters. And the cars do stop wall infs. also there are plenty other spots to fight other than the bottom layer. It's pretty easy to punish a ddd approaching from the air. so you can use the left/right side to your advantage.



Japes: Helps several characters with an amazing cp.Can be good against mk. The gators are not random.

cons imo: Promotes camping(not a bad thing necessarily. This is more of neutral point). Stalls matches. Falcos really good there. Could make planking harder to punish. Could result in more ppl trying to win by timeout. E.g. falco, mk, olimar, pit, wario.

Pirate ship: Same pros as above. I don't see any cons as i haven't seen anyone be able to water camp efficiently. The biggest problem i could see is camping that little boat on the left when it comes momentarily.

Norfair: Again same pros except the mk part.lava is easily avoidable and also aids ppl who hold the advantage by providing combo continuance(possibly). Easy timeout stage for many characters however is a big con imo.

 

[Conviction]

You have to jump before is on screen jebus, unless you plan on powersheilding.

While I'm on the ground in a trip state, I'll just use the invinci. frames. Idk how being on the ground from a trip makes it harder to see a car coming.

@Kuro: I'll consign.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You have to jump before is on screen jebus, unless you plan on powersheilding.

While I'm on the ground in a trip state, I'll just use the invinci. frames. Idk how being on the ground from a trip makes it harder to see a car coming.

@Kuro: I'll consign.

it doesn't but you make it seem like a banana throw has as much cooldown as DDD's grab. you have enough time to throw a banana and leave him in stun long enough for the car to hit and for you to power shield.

 

[Conviction]

I'll play this stage against P-1 and I'll see what happens.

 

[Player-1]

It'd be a decent stage for Diddy, but not in most of the high/top tiers, it'd only make mid and low tiers easier for us. We wouldn't be able to do wall infinite on left side and I think the drug store platforms will keep us from doing it as well unless they're down.

 

[Conviction]

Drugstore platforms go down after 7 shakes of the sign.

 

[Overswarm]

Norfair: Again same pros except the mk part.lava is easily avoidable and also aids ppl who hold the advantage by providing combo continuance(possibly). Easy timeout stage for many characters however is a big con imo.

If this is the case, other stages are waaaaay worse. (at MLG) PS1 has 4% timeouts compared to Norfairs 1.1% timeout (one game out of like 83 or 84). The one timeout was Wario vs. Luigi, last stock. The theory that Norfair is an "easy timeout stage" seems to be less reality and more "I saw this one guy time out TWO people on Norfair" anecdotes.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Wario bike stalling is almost impossible to beat if he has a decent percent lead or a stock lead. His aerial mobility is good enough to let him choose what platform to land on when he is in mid air and avoid his opponent.

 

[Judo777]

If this is the case, other stages are waaaaay worse. (at MLG) PS1 has 4% timeouts compared to Norfairs 1.1% timeout (one game out of like 83 or 84). The one timeout was Wario vs. Luigi, last stock. The theory that Norfair is an "easy timeout stage" seems to be less reality and more "I saw this one guy time out TWO people on Norfair" anecdotes.

To be fair. Was the non timeout Norfair matches not timeout cause they were completely one sided? If I'm MK and they are Falco on Norfair, why would I time them out when I can just **** them in 3 minutes.

MK tornadoing between the top 2 plats is pretty hard to stop. Same with Sonic spin shot and wario bike.

 

[Tesh]

Those stats mean nothing if you don't know which matches almost timed out before someone died doing something desperate. Most matches that would be timeouts end within the last minute when the losing players rushes in hopelessly to attempt taking the lead back.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Tesh is correct.

 

[Kuro~]

If this is the case, other stages are waaaaay worse. (at MLG) PS1 has 4% timeouts compared to Norfairs 1.1% timeout (one game out of like 83 or 84). The one timeout was Wario vs. Luigi, last stock. The theory that Norfair is an "easy timeout stage" seems to be less reality and more "I saw this one guy time out TWO people on Norfair" anecdotes.

No, it depends on the player tbh. But the pieces are set if the player wishes to time out. It facilitates the ability to but doesn't mean ppl will.

 

[Life]

No dice, Tesh. All timeouts are like that, regardless of stage.

 

[Tesh]

So? It doesn't mean Norfair isn't a timeout heavy stage. I'm just saying the MLG data you guys keep spewing holds no weight.

 

[Life]

1.1% of matches on Norfair timed out.
~4% of matches on PS1 timed out.

You are stating that Norfair had many matches that almost went to time but did not because one player SD'd in their desparation. First, this is meaningless unless you have statistics (X% of matches went at least 7:30 or whatever). Second, this is meaningless unless you have PS1's statistics, too.

You are arguing that our numbers are flawed when you don't have the numbers yourself to back your argument up.

tl;dr we have numbers and you don't.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He's not trying to objectively prove anything, but you have to take into account that there is a very high chance many matches that would've gone to time didn't because of a last-ditch effort to win recklessly, and you can't ignore that that simple fact skews those results quite heavily.

 

[Conviction]

So we are banning stages based on game time length?

 

[Tesh]

The problem I have with Norfair is that the layout makes timeout much easier for more characters than just MK. Unlike RC/Brinstar, where most characters can pin down most other characters, you now have a massive circle that is only now and then blocked. Keep in mind that even when there isn't a circle, most of the time you are left with a position easily defensible just like PS1.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea the time-out data really holds no weight.
I've experienced matches that would have surely timed out if I wasn't forced to go to stupid lengths like blindly rushing in with diddy trying to dair spike people to have a hope of winning.

So you might have numbers, but they're pretty pointless numbers.

Anyway I don't see how the layout of Norfair is any better for camping compared to Smashville. Smashville doesn't even have lava.

 

[Life]

Tesh: So it's okay for only MK to time people out but not okay for characters like Sonic, TL, and Wario to time people out?

And why do I feel like the rest of you are ignoring my post? Of course the last 30-60 seconds are going to involve more aggro, that applies to all stages and therefore can't be used as a ban criterion for Norfair.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm just saying don't bring up the data at all, since there are way too many factors that affect time-outs outside of the stage, as well as it not properly representing matches where one person easily lost due to being forced to approach.

 

[Ussi]

Can't projectile users fire
Projectiles at Wario/Sonic/MK?

Even then.. Speaking for Ike, i can quickly QD from the middle two platforms.. I might do some testing with QD from the top platform some other time.

Anyways~

Pikachu can QA > thunder wall someone running away high....

Luigi probably sucks at chasing people, but thats anywhere.

 

[Judo777]

Can't projectile users fire
Projectiles at Wario/Sonic/MK?

Even then.. Speaking for Ike, i can quickly QD from the middle two platforms.. I might do some testing with QD from the top platform some other time.

Anyways~

Pikachu can QA > thunder wall someone running away high....

Luigi probably sucks at chasing people, but thats anywhere.

Ok well QA thunder doesn't matter on 2 of those characters cause they can AD and QA is thunder is slow. It might work on MK but MK doesn't have to nado until its safe. Also Pika has to hit the ground to thunder which is tricky if hes up by one of the platforms in the first place.

Projectiles would work but again Wario and Sonic can airdodge and there are few projectiles that go far enough AND beat nado. You have to be on the same level to use projectiles.

Heres the problem with beatting those tactics they don't have to move until you get close. Meaning you have to be pretty close to the top platform before they will move. Then they g to the otherside with Nado protection or an airdodge at any time.

 

[Ussi]

Hmmm times like these its just better to pop in the game and ask someone to tornado back and forth.

Thing about MK waiting to tornado is that he's moving slow when not doing tornado.

But anyways, i got nothin. But apparently Sonic can time out MK on norfair.

 

[Overswarm]

Those stats mean nothing if you don't know which matches almost timed out before someone died doing something desperate. Most matches that would be timeouts end within the last minute when the losing players rushes in hopelessly to attempt taking the lead back.

Well this would mean they would be one stock remaining on the winner, correct?

Do you agree?

 

[san.]

Thing is, a lot of characters' aerial speeds are slower than the majority of their dash/run speeds, and Norfair provides more than enough room to shark.

This is ignoring B-move movement / ledge snap options/projectile coverage.

 

[Tesh]

Its not that its okay for MK to do it but not other InCom. its just going to add to something people don't like to see and if by some miracle MK gets banned or limited some more as far as timeouts, you get another issue.

Shooting projectiles across the stage at Sonic won't do much. Especially since Norfair is so big, most of the good projectiles for hitting landings won't even go full screen.

 

[WindMajor]

*reads last few pages on Norfair discussion*

There's sooooo much to say, but no time for me to type it all out. I'll just say that InCom, OS, and San are hitting the nail on the head, as far as my opinions are concerned.

BRC, if you guys want some info from me about Norfair, you can hit me up on Skype whenever.

 

[DMG]

If MLG data was the bible for stages, we would have RC and Brinstar as starters and other starters as CP's

Because technically MK had a higher win rate on YI or something than RC and Brinstar. Which HAS to mean obviously he's more dominant on those stages than RC Brinstar. Numbers can't lie.


Take MLG data with a grain of salt.

 

[Deleted member]

*reads last few pages on Norfair discussion*

There's sooooo much to say, but no time for me to type it all out. I'll just say that InCom, OS, and San are hitting the nail on the head, as far as my opinions are concerned.

BRC, if you guys want some info from me about Norfair, you can hit me up on Skype whenever.

I just don't see why people are considering Pirate Ship instead of Norfair. :/

 

[Tesh]

Funny thing about most of those stages. They were banned because in 08-09 people were like "ewww explosions, me not understand stage". But now, if you look at them, you realize the layout is just ******** and its gonna be just as dumb as RC or worse.

 

[san.]

PS and Japes are just a lot more simple to understand right now than Norfair for me.

Norfair: Explaining workarounds for characters' runaway games as well as getting people to understand hazards, especially if they have any tendencies, goes a long way.

As someone stated before, this was considered the original 'MK problem' stage, enough to make regions ban it, so it still carries a few negative connotations.

We still have plenty of data on this stage from the MLGs as well as some regions who choose to keep it legal in their tournaments.

 

[B.A.M.]

I feel from this discussion there really isnt any reasonable data for NOT having Pirate Ship and Japes on out stage list. Norfair sounds bomb to me; then again i main sonic lol.

iono much about the hazards but as far as Sonic, MK, and Wario camp tactics, while powerful do lend themselves to some openings. I will hopefully have a chance to test these out this week. I could see pit being very strong on this stage though due to his arrows and glide. Can Falco camp the platforms as well once he has a lead and phantasm?

 

[xDD-Master]

if mlg data was the bible for stages, we would have rc and brinstar as starters and other starters as cp's

because technically mk had a higher win rate on yi or something than rc and brinstar. Which has to mean obviously he's more dominant on those stages than rc brinstar. Numbers can't lie.


Take mlg data with a grain of salt.

Damn you expressed completely what I feel!!! <333 ^^


Thats what I already thought a lot when reading all this BS MLG Data stuff.
As if Halberd is better for MK just because he won there more x'D
Like lets say, there only was ONE match at all involving an MK on FD, and he won that, WOW 100% winning rate, must be godlike stage for him x'D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

To be fair, I counter-pick Final Destination against several characters with Meta Knight when RC/Brinstar are banned.

Snake comes to mind.

 

[Kuro~]

To be fair, I counter-pick Final Destination against several characters with Meta Knight when RC/Brinstar are banned.

Snake comes to mind.

lol......lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm serious.

Without platforms to land on and hide under he gets juggled sooooo hard.