The Greninja mains seem to think it's either even or in their favour atm. I can understand even but I don't see evidence to say it's a -1. *sadness*
Regardless, these MUs should really have the video evidence looked at. I think we should do that for the Sonic MU and look at how peeps approach/playfootsies/play on the defensive in neutral. Shaky's vids are up, so that might be a good chance to look at it.
As for the Greninja MU, do we even have any vids of higher level Ness mains vs. Greninja?
Also sorry for the tags you two, you don't have to discuss the MU if you don't want, I just dislike talking about people without tagging them too, it feels weird hahaha. However I tried to be a bit more firm on my stance. I see
as our only 60:40 and I'm sceptical that it's in Froggy's favour at all.
Here's one, but I don't know anything about Shuriblur, so I don't really know if he counts as "high-level", but it is a tournament match so hey.
This is a really even match with Cha0tic against Jutsu. This one shows how much of a pain the characters can be to each other.
Since I feel uncomfortable online and haven't been to a tournament yet, I don't feel that I should be posting in the matchup thread anymore until I get some tourney experience, so I'll just throw my 2 cents here. The neutral game is pretty even. Greninja can toss Shurikens and shff f-airs to space and bait Ness to approach and go in with a dash grab if he starts blocking, while Ness can use his fairly safe and strong short hopped f-air, n-air and b-air to try to get in along with using the fear of his good grabs and throws to get Greninja if he starts blocking. In general Greninja's options are slightly better on the ground since he has good, quick, safe options in jab and d-tilt which can usually beat out Ness' own jabs and tilts, while Ness's aerials are quicker and safer overall.
Both characters punish each other really hard. Greninja has great combos and followups from throws, dash attack, d-tilt and n-air to punish as well as quick, strong attacks with good range such as forward-smash and u-smash. Another boon for Greninja in this area is that he has the mobility to punish most unsafe attacks that Ness throws out from mid and long range, such as whiffed PK Fires, PK Thunders, poor recoveries and smash attacks. Ness on the other hand, punishes Greninja harder on a consistent basis, especially if he gets PK Fire into a grab/strong attack or punishes a landing with PK Thunder 2. It should probably be noted that with Greninja's below-average frame data, Ness technically has a decent amount of opportunities to punish, but he doesn't have the mobility like Greninja does, so it evens out. Both kill really well, though it takes slightly less effort with Ness.
Both characters can harass each other offstage, but Greninja wins here. Obviously, Hydro Pump gimps PK Thunder, which is a huge deal. However, Greninja also has a quick b-air to knock Ness out of his double jump and f-air is hard for Ness to come back from offstage, so HP is not the only factor. Despite Greninja's amazing recovery though, he still fears Ness' PK Thunder and all aerials sans u-air when recovering. Greninja definitely wins the offstage war though.
All in all, I think the matchup is slightly in Greninja's favor, either a 60:40 or a 55:45. Very winnable for both characters, but Ness really needs to play carefully in this one and Greninja needs to be on his toes to look out for PK Thunder 2s and f-smashes as well as punish opportunities for himself.
