Social The Suburbs of Onett - Ness Social Thread

[Gunla]

Discussions over there are intense.

Sorry if I stepped out of line there @ Gunla I felt like I was being more assertive than I should have. Maybe I should take a break from these things, I've been feeling myself get more annoyed generally as of late.

Nah, it's totally fine.

 

[MintyBreeze]

A good Mega Man would never recklessly throw out his F-Smash! o-o Assume that they're going to conserve it and not let you bait them into firing the F-Smash. I would link a particular Mega Man player who says so much as to not do this, but he's quite vulgar.

 

[Luco]

The idea is to have a partner that is in sync enough with you to use the move appropriately, rather than just throw it out hoping you'll heal from it. <3

 

[MintyBreeze]

Part of me thinks that doubles is almost all about correlating your moves with your teammates. Combos, too, but just one major mess up of friendly fire, I could see turning the tables in the wrong way.

 

[Asa]

oli matchup is EZ

doable in brawl, even easier now

 

[Asa]

also most optimized teammates for ness would be sheik and lucario imo

both are very good healers, and anubis is broken

teams is def about da team combos though, gimmicks only get so far

 

[Luco]

I still think ZSS is optimal.

 

[ROBnWatch]

The idea is to have a partner that is in sync enough with you to use the move appropriately, rather than just throw it out hoping you'll heal from it. <3

Oh! You guys were talking about doubles. I thought we were talking about a one on one situation.

 

[AwkwardNess]

I'm disgusting.
I spent so much time getting hyped about Lucas that I forgot about my roots with Ness!
Aghhhhhh I hate myself

 

[ROBnWatch]

I'm disgusting.
I spent so much time getting hyped about Lucas that I forgot about my roots with Ness!
Aghhhhhh I hate myself

*Ironic slow clap*

 

[Lochy]

I'm disgusting.
I spent so much time getting hyped about Lucas that I forgot about my roots with Ness!
Aghhhhhh I hate myself

Lol.

 

[Earthbound360]

Phew, I've been out doing tournament after tournament. Haven't had the time to post or read up on this thread. Huge catch-up post ahead, be warned!

Watching you at the Xanadu 100 was pretty sick by the way, if a few things went just slightly differently you could have won game 2 against Nairo. Keep using that Mii Gunner. I think a few optimisations to your Ness could see your catapulting yourself into the $$$$$$$. Is Bengalz vaBengal? If so, good ****

@ ROBnWatch I've picked up ROB recently, this character is stupid good, why did nobody tell me? I might create a personal tier list at some point, actually, because so many characters in this game are criminally underrated. Any ROB tips for a newbie?

Hahah thanks dude. Did you see me win against Dunnobro? I SD'd twice but still took the set lol. And Nairo is really friggin good. I think I was holding up with Ness for a while in the first game, but the gimps threw me off and I felt that he knew the Ness matchup well since he plays with Nakat. I tried to hit him with the lack of matchup knowledge in Gunner

And yeah, Bengalz is vaBengalz. I managed to eliminate him from Saturday Night Rumble a few days after S@X 100 X3

I was also on stream last night if you were watching. Played against JDawg, Logic, and Poyo. I must say, it feels really good to eliminate the person that put you into losers >:D

Here's one, but I don't know anything about Shuriblur, so I don't really know if he counts as "high-level", but it is a tournament match so hey.

This is a really even match with Cha0tic against Jutsu. This one shows how much of a pain the characters can be to each other.

Since I feel uncomfortable online and haven't been to a tournament yet, I don't feel that I should be posting in the matchup thread anymore until I get some tourney experience, so I'll just throw my 2 cents here. The neutral game is pretty even. Greninja can toss Shurikens and shff f-airs to space and bait Ness to approach and go in with a dash grab if he starts blocking, while Ness can use his fairly safe and strong short hopped f-air, n-air and b-air to try to get in along with using the fear of his good grabs and throws to get Greninja if he starts blocking. In general Greninja's options are slightly better on the ground since he has good, quick, safe options in jab and d-tilt which can usually beat out Ness' own jabs and tilts, while Ness's aerials are quicker and safer overall.

Both characters punish each other really hard. Greninja has great combos and followups from throws, dash attack, d-tilt and n-air to punish as well as quick, strong attacks with good range such as forward-smash and u-smash. Another boon for Greninja in this area is that he has the mobility to punish most unsafe attacks that Ness throws out from mid and long range, such as whiffed PK Fires, PK Thunders, poor recoveries and smash attacks. Ness on the other hand, punishes Greninja harder on a consistent basis, especially if he gets PK Fire into a grab/strong attack or punishes a landing with PK Thunder 2. It should probably be noted that with Greninja's below-average frame data, Ness technically has a decent amount of opportunities to punish, but he doesn't have the mobility like Greninja does, so it evens out. Both kill really well, though it takes slightly less effort with Ness.

Both characters can harass each other offstage, but Greninja wins here. Obviously, Hydro Pump gimps PK Thunder, which is a huge deal. However, Greninja also has a quick b-air to knock Ness out of his double jump and f-air is hard for Ness to come back from offstage, so HP is not the only factor. Despite Greninja's amazing recovery though, he still fears Ness' PK Thunder and all aerials sans u-air when recovering. Greninja definitely wins the offstage war though.

All in all, I think the matchup is slightly in Greninja's favor, either a 60:40 or a 55:45. Very winnable for both characters, but Ness really needs to play carefully in this one and Greninja needs to be on his toes to look out for PK Thunder 2s and f-smashes as well as punish opportunities for himself.

People seem to be referencing Techei's matches from S@X as of late. With as much respect to the Nesses who play him on stream, I really want to state that they do NOT embody all of what Ness can do. I'm probably the best Ness in our region (I'm from the same region as Techei), but have yet to play him on stream. Regardless, having played him a lot (and most of the time winning), I can say with good confidence that Ness doesn't have trouble with Greninja unless he's off stage without a DJ. These videos being used simply do not offer solid evidence of the matchup being in Greninja's favor.

Greninja beats Ness on the ground yes, but only slightly honestly. Both characters are usually just fishing for grabs anyways. The kicker here is that Ness beats Greninja in the air, but by a fairly wide margin.

I honestly kind of disagree with each character punishing each other hard. Geninja has this weird tech that allows him to escape multi-hit moves using Shadow Sneak. He can slip out of fair chains, and jab out of PKF. On the flipside, Ness' floaty DJ and air dodge, combined with his quick combo breaking nair prevent him from being juggled with uthrows and uairs fairly often. I also have to disagree greatly with their kill potential being even. Ness has the best kill options in the game, never having to actually set up or even risk a whole lot for his KOs. His bair and uair are flexible, safe, and very strong, And of course, bthrow is probably the best KO move in the game in this current meta. Greninja really just can't compare.

Greninja wins the offstage game, but that's fairly obvious. Ness can go off for about 1 aerial before needing to retreat with a DJ. Ness' should NEVER go out with their DJ because if Greninja gets back without getting hit, you are forced to use PKT2 and will basically die. This doesn't determine the matchup.

I'm shocked that Greninja mains genuinely think that they win this matchup. If anything, I feel like Ness wins it very slightly.

Honestly the fact that @ Earthbound360 was calling us weak willed inspired me to not bend over as easily. Usually i wouldn't be so adamant about the Greninja matchup. But meh.

Lol, I hope it wasn't hurtful in any way, I just prefer when we debate with confidence. I've checked out some of the discussion (skimmed it last night), and I'll probably tune in with my input at some point. I don't like how they're using S@X as an example for Greninja winning the matchup. Techie never plays me on stream, and I'm the best Ness in the region.

I'd say Megaman and possibly Pacman, but I'm not sure. Megaman seems to me the only one there that might be a legit -1, however new information came to me recently saying that if Pacman puts down a trampoline half on and half off the ledge then we HAVE to bounce on it no matter what, like we apparently can't escape it at all, meaning he can get some nasty followups, and if the trampoline is red when we bounce on it then we fall to our deaths. Considering that and the fact that Pacman has a really means onstage game, I'm not surprised at all if the MU ends up being even or, if his on-stage game is scary enough, in his favour slightly.

Megaman is the usual. Mixes up his projectiles so we can't absorb, zones us out really well, is heavy as heck, etc.

Megaman is tough, but I still think it's even. It's very slightly in his favor, but not even 45:55 IMO. No good MM player will just feed you random fsmashes to bat or magnet though.
Pacman is tricky. I think it could possibly be even right now, but it might just be because I don't know enough about his big book of tricks. I'm currently even in sets against Zage's Pacman, and he always pulls out new tricks to catch me off guard. Catching the little bugger is a pain though. He's always walling himself in with trampolines, hydrants, and charging the fruit midair.

As for this teams discussion, Zamus is still my fave. Dsmash heals, dsmash combos, dthrow combos, they cover each others bad matchups, it's amazing.

 

[Noa.]

I know right. I asked for high level play and while MD/VA is one of the strongest regions in the US, it's not like every player there is great. I said that the only quality Ness player in MD/VA was you Mik!. Not to say that the others are bad, just not fully representative of good Ness play.

 

[MintyBreeze]

I tried to hit him with the lack of matchup knowledge in Gunner

Wait, do you have the Gunner as a secondary main? If so, I salute you.

 

[Earthbound360]

I know right. I asked for high level play and while MD/VA is one of the strongest regions in the US, it's not like every player there is great. I said that the only quality Ness player in MD/VA was you Mik!. Not to say that the others are bad, just not fully representative of good Ness play.

Oh wow, thanks for the mention buddy XD
I need to tell them that while Coreo and Shuriblur aren't bad per se, they always get beat by our region's Greninja, while I typically beat him in tournament.

Wait, do you have the Gunner as a secondary main? If so, I salute you.

Heck yeah. In fact, I'm seemingly one of the only people on the planet who play Gunner in tournament. I played him at S@X 100 against Nairo and put up a good fight (and apparently this blew up on Reddit).
I also played Gunner against Poyo last night and won a game against his Luigi. Pretty sure Gunner has a much better matchup against Luigi than Ness lol.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Heck yeah. In fact, I'm seemingly one of the only people on the planet who play Gunner in tournament. I played him at S@X 100 against Nairo and put up a good fight (and apparently this blew up on Reddit).
I also played Gunner against Poyo last night and won a game against his Luigi. Pretty sure Gunner has a much better matchup against Luigi than Ness lol.

Interesting! I've been trying to look into the Mii Fighters, especially their mains. I totally forgot they existed because they aren't even selectable or visible online.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Interesting! I've been trying to look into the Mii Fighters, especially their mains. I totally forgot they existed because they aren't even selectable or visible online.

This is why I barely play online. You forget about certain things that otherwise are unforgettable.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Precisely! Just... Don't you think it would've been a better idea to actually have the Mii character slot there, just blotted out or marked so that you know you can't play as one? Because hyping up something like that, and completely abandoning it in online play will make the competitive scene entirely forget it.

 

[AwkwardNess]

Precisely! Just... Don't you think it would've been a better idea to actually have the Mii character slot there, just blotted out or marked so that you know you can't play as one? Because hyping up something like that, and completely abandoning it in online play will make the competitive scene entirely forget it.

I honestly think that'd be worse, since it'd make it seem like the Mii Fighters are some sort of inferior set of characters. And I really don't get why you can't use them online in the first place. If Nintendo and Sora did this because they wanted to prevent "bad" Miis from being seen online, you can still see them via the User Mii in the lobby and Results screen. I guess the real reason was that the Miis are centered around having custom moves and they want to let people know what moveset they'd be up against, but you could either tell the opponent the Mii's moves or just force the Mii Fighter to use the 1111 set.
/rant

 

[ROBnWatch]

I honestly think that'd be worse, since it'd make it seem like the Mii Fighters are some sort of inferior set of characters. And I really don't get why you can't use them online in the first place. If Nintendo and Sora did this because they wanted to prevent "bad" Miis from being seen online, you can still see them via the User Mii in the lobby and Results screen. I guess the real reason was that the Miis are centered around having custom moves and they want to let people know what moveset they'd be up against, but you could either tell the opponent the Mii's moves or just force the Mii Fighter to use the 1111 set.
/rant

Well, someone could have a "good" Mii as the profile picture, yet still use a "bad" Mii online.

 

[Earthbound360]

Hey guys, just wanna say another little something that I've been discovering about Ness' moveset as of late.

Sourspot bair is becoming one of my favorite tools. I swear, that thing has way more priority than it should. The entire duration of bair can surprise you sometimes too. The stuff it sets up for is amazing, and it's so easy to hit with. On the ground it sets up for grabs if they're at low percents, and if they're any higher, it knocks down for either a tech read, or maybe even a jab lock if you're reaction time is good. In the air full hopped, I swear it almost true combos into other aerials. I have this one match against Serynder where I just abused the crap out of bair in games 2 and 3. It's beautiful.

(Ignore that first stock, I forgot what Jigglypuff did for a bit XD)

And then there's jab. Man did I underrate this thing at first. It's still not a GREAT jab, but what makes it great is how Ness is built. He's a character that just feeds on grabs, so you're inclined to spot dodge a lot. But they also made Ness' jab a rapid jab if you hold the button. It catches spot dodges with like no effort at all. And for some reason, if spaced right, if the opponent shields it, the first 2 hits will just keep pressuring the shield until they decide to move away, not triggering the third and final hit which is really punishable. So Ness just ends up repeating the first 2 jabs that are hard to punish, making it safer than it really should be XP

 

[Luco]

Ahh I'm always pleasantly surprised by Ness' jab. Glad to hear someone else loves it too. :D

Also Mik! you're an actual god for making such a solid, extensive post on the boards. I know you don't generally like doing these things, but it means a lot to me. ^_^

 

[Pazx]

MD/VA is one of the strongest regions in the US

@ mik pls confirm/deny

Also you actually got a bit of advice over here (from Chibo no less), I'm not sure if you use reddit but it's worth reading. tl;dr stop fsmashing (you did this against Poyo a bit too, but I totally thought you had that set).

 

[Lochy]

Hey guys just curious how strong is New York's smash scene?
I know NJ has some great players ex. Nakat.
But other than Dabuz who is strong in the NY area? Preferably NYC area?

 

[ROBnWatch]

Hey guys just curious how strong is New York's smash scene?
I know NJ has some great players ex. Nakat.
But other than Dabuz who is strong in the NY area? Preferably NYC area?

Lol Lochy. You're the only one you know of aren't you?

 

[Earthbound360]

@ mik pls confirm/deny

Also you actually got a bit of advice over here (from Chibo no less), I'm not sure if you use reddit but it's worth reading. tl;dr stop fsmashing (you did this against Poyo a bit too, but I totally thought you had that set).

I actually am not too sure how high MD/VA is honestly, but I will say that a lot of the top players at S@X 100 were out of state. At the very least, NJ is probably stronger than us.

And funny. I don't use reddit, so I can't tell these guys this, but all those fsmashes were unintentional. They were mean to be SH fairs, but I didn't input the jump first XP
I know that fsmash is mad punishable, I use it only when I'm sure it'll hit (or I **** up lol).

 

[AwkwardNess]

(Ignore that first stock, I forgot what Jigglypuff did for a bit XD)

And then there's jab. Man did I underrate this thing at first. It's still not a GREAT jab, but what makes it great is how Ness is built. He's a character that just feeds on grabs, so you're inclined to spot dodge a lot. But they also made Ness' jab a rapid jab if you hold the button. It catches spot dodges with like no effort at all. And for some reason, if spaced right, if the opponent shields it, the first 2 hits will just keep pressuring the shield until they decide to move away, not triggering the third and final hit which is really punishable. So Ness just ends up repeating the first 2 jabs that are hard to punish, making it safer than it really should be XP

That first stock was a Press 1 moment for me :'(
Yeah, I remember someone calling Ness's jab a wet towel to a lot of approaches. And the jab's range for a jab isn't even funny.
Ness is like, 13 and the kid's oversized head and fist are lethal weapons.

 

[ROBnWatch]

That first stock was a Press 1 moment for me :'(
Yeah, I remember someone calling Ness's jab a wet towel to a lot of approaches. And the jab's range for a jab isn't even funny.
Ness is like, 13 and the kid's oversized head and fist are lethal weapons.

Don't forget his bare hands (not fists) during Neutral Air and his rapid-fire foot during Down Tilt (and slower in Side Tilt).

 

[Earthbound360]

So guys, I know we've kinda touched on this before, but this video reinvigorated my interest in doing things like this, especially since they clarified some things. What do you think we could do to exploit this?

 

[MintyBreeze]

Interesting, so they're open to be hit for a single frame? Hmmm... Well, I know you'd have to be extremely precise with PK Fire to hit them with it, not to mention how slow it is...

How about N-Air?

 

[Luco]

I've used Nair before to take advantage of it and I also think PKT would be a good option.

 

[Earthbound360]

I would agree with PKT if it didn't get eaten by every UpB in the game.

Now Lucas thunder though... I've been doing that a LOT to people lately in customs tournaments. I almost feel bad lol.

 

[Lochy]

Lol Lochy. You're the only one you know of aren't you?

Lol yea.

 

[MintyBreeze]

PK Thunder is pretty slow to be able to punish that quickly, though. Going off-stage with Ness in general doesn't seem like a very fun prospect to me at all, so N-Air is just scary. e-e

 

[Luco]

I would agree with PKT if it didn't get eaten by every UpB in the game.

Now Lucas thunder though... I've been doing that a LOT to people lately in customs tournaments. I almost feel bad lol.

Ah yeah of course, I was more thinking about the tail.

Does Dsmash get to the spot it needs to be to be a viable option there if spaced?

Also not sure if the Mac thing is legit, it seemed to be when I was working with it in training mode but :?

 

[MintyBreeze]

Oh, the tail of it? Kind of like the outer trail of Bowser's fire breath, then? That's a good idea, because it'd probably linger.

Well, to be able to hit anyone with D-Smash you'd have to be able to time it very well! Maybe Ness's d-tilt would also be a viable option? You can use it very quickly even if it's range isn't optimal.

Edit: Actually, I think all of Ness's aerials, except excluding his U-Air, would be able to take advantage of this. All of them stay out for just a little while, potentially enough to hit whoever just recently grabbed the ledge.

 

[Luco]

The tail of Ness' PKT is transcendent, meaning it can't be beaten by any kind of attack or hitbox with the exception of absorption. Even reflect doesn't work on PKT tails!

 

[AwkwardNess]

I personally love to use bair for this. And if you're on a stage that's mostly just a floating platform like BF, your opponent can be stage spiked 99% of the time with bair during the 1 frame unless they're psychic and can tech extremely quickly. Ness's double jump also gets him back safely, just gonna say that even if we know it already.

 

[ROBnWatch]

At first, back in Brawl, Ness wasn't one of my good characters, but nowadays he is. Bit what I've learned is that his double jump is a freaking life-saver!

 

[MintyBreeze]

I never knew that he jumped fairly high. Almost like Yoshi, except he actually has a recovery.