The Sonic 'Self improvement' thread, plus your questions answered! FAQ

[infomon]

*facejumps Tenki*

 

[Chis]

This thread is so depressingly useless.

I beg to differ.

 

[Tenki]

I beg to differ.

I posted it in the wrong thread.

freaking title looks like mine.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what happens when you footstool jump somebody?

usually, you end up jumping off of somebodys face...
hence, the term, facejump

 

[da K.I.D.]

0-death. I think so....

1. if anything, it would be 0-steak...lol
2. in order for the f-air to have enough knockback to set up the positioning for the spinshot to facejump, the opponent will have to be at like 30-45 damage. around that area...

 

[Joshkip]

Ok so i need a bit of information with fighting 2 certain characters Olimar and Meta knight, i have been constantly fighting these 2 in each tournament i have been in which in doing so i will lose and place top 8

so yah i know you all are probably gonna chew me up and call me a ****ing noob and what not but i could just use some help.

Olimar user: times his grabs almost perfectly which kinda hurts me as i like to get close to the opponent when i fight as sonic. i just cant seem to get around his grabs and almost every single time he gets out a 3 blue pikman.....CURSE YOU PIKMAN!!! *shakes fist frantically in air*

Meta knight user: this guy knows how to play him (not that everyone doesnt) but yah he knows how and when to use his attacks at the moment in order to gain the upper hand against my Sonic's attacks i mean i have once or twice f-smashed him out of his tornado (somehow) is that some sort of fluke or what? if it helps i punched at a down angle each time.

but yah i am prepared for the chewing.

 

[Tenki]

Ok so i need a bit of information with fighting 2 certain characters Olimar and Meta knight, i have been constantly fighting these 2 in each tournament i have been in which in doing so i will lose and place top 8

so yah i know you all are probably gonna chew me up and call me a ****ing noob and what not but i could just use some help.

Olimar user: times his grabs almost perfectly which kinda hurts me as i like to get close to the opponent when i fight as sonic. i just cant seem to get around his grabs and almost every single time he gets out a 3 blue pikman.....CURSE YOU PIKMAN!!! *shakes fist frantically in air*

Meta knight user: this guy knows how to play him (not that everyone doesnt) but yah he knows how and when to use his attacks at the moment in order to gain the upper hand against my Sonic's attacks i mean i have once or twice f-smashed him out of his tornado (somehow) is that some sort of fluke or what? if it helps i punched at a down angle each time.

but yah i am prepared for the chewing.

@Oli
Jump more and use aerial kinds of baits against Olimar. Like fast fall towards him, double jump to avoid his u-smash/grab, then fastfall and use an aerial (or just fastfall behind him and grab). Homing attack right before you land might help too. If he's grab happy, landing behind him (do it so you pass him riight before you land could net you some free grabs, because if he's just mashing A out of shield, he'll grab but you'll be behind him. If he does U-smash or D-smash out of shield, then be prepared to spotdodge.

@MK
Well, I've never heard of a down-tilted F-smash hitting MK out of Tornado... lol. Most MK's do shorthop or low floating tornados, so we usually pull an upward tilted F-smash XD. We have a thread about Tornado/Shuttle loop, with some random bits of info against MK in general. If your reflexes/timing are amazing, if you shield a shuttle loop (when he's going upwards), jump and immediately do F-air or some other aerial out of shield, and you'll catch him on his way down. If he does a shorthop F-air or B-air and it gets shielded or he misses, hit him on his way down. If you shield a tornado (remember to tilt your shield upwards!), he'll probably retreat after he does it, so as soon as he starts to pull out, release your shield, run after him and grab him before he lands.

For these fights, his attacks are more difficult to punish when he's on the ground, so you'll have to move 2 steps ahead of him. When you're thinking one step ahead, you're predicting a movement, like an attack, and you run prepared to shield and grab the attack, or something like that. When you're not actually able to reach your opponent in time, he'll probably do some kind of defensive movement after he misses, and you'll have to move ready to punish that second movement instead.

For example:
thinking 1 step ahead -
- Metaknight does shorthop F-air. You run in and grab him before he lands. Success.

thinking 2 steps ahead-
- Metaknight does shorthop F-air and fastfalls. This time, if you run at him from too far away, he'll already have recovered and be able to spotdodge your grab. So this time, you run at him, shield so you slide a bit in front of him, then do a delayed grab to punish a spotdodge.

You'll have to do it alot against those two opponents especially, because they're alot harder to punish ;p.

 

[Joshkip]

@Oli
Jump more and use aerial kinds of baits against Olimar. Like fast fall towards him, double jump to avoid his u-smash/grab, then fastfall and use an aerial (or just fastfall behind him and grab). Homing attack right before you land might help too. If he's grab happy, landing behind him (do it so you pass him riight before you land could net you some free grabs, because if he's just mashing A out of shield, he'll grab but you'll be behind him. If he does U-smash or D-smash out of shield, then be prepared to spotdodge.

@MK
Well, I've never heard of a down-tilted F-smash hitting MK out of Tornado... lol. Most MK's do shorthop or low floating tornados, so we usually pull an upward tilted F-smash XD. We have a thread about Tornado/Shuttle loop, with some random bits of info against MK in general. If your reflexes/timing are amazing, if you shield a shuttle loop (when he's going upwards), jump and immediately do F-air or some other aerial out of shield, and you'll catch him on his way down. If he does a shorthop F-air or B-air and it gets shielded or he misses, hit him on his way down. If you shield a tornado (remember to tilt your shield upwards!), he'll probably retreat after he does it, so as soon as he starts to pull out, release your shield, run after him and grab him before he lands.

For these fights, his attacks are more difficult to punish when he's on the ground, so you'll have to move 2 steps ahead of him. When you're thinking one step ahead, you're predicting a movement, like an attack, and you run prepared to shield and grab the attack, or something like that. When you're not actually able to reach your opponent in time, he'll probably do some kind of defensive movement after he misses, and you'll have to move ready to punish that second movement instead.

For example:
thinking 1 step ahead -
- Metaknight does shorthop F-air. You run in and grab him before he lands. Success.

thinking 2 steps ahead-
- Metaknight does shorthop F-air and fastfalls. This time, if you run at him from too far away, he'll already have recovered and be able to spotdodge your grab. So this time, you run at him, shield so you slide a bit in front of him, then do a delayed grab to punish a spotdodge.

You'll have to do it alot against those two opponents especially, because they're alot harder to punish ;p.

thanks a lot its gonna be a challenge doing that but i will get it done.

yah the metaknight i face is a bit odd but it works almost all the time i mean i am kinda laughing at the hole thing cause he is a huge noob at smash bros and he sucked at all the games until metaknight came into the picture.

but on a random note i was in a couple of smash boards and i read a lot of "Sonic doesnt have priority." i am not saying that no one knows about this but Sonic eats Lucario's aura spheres with his fists even when lucario has max damage on him

 

[da K.I.D.]

rooooy has some numbers down on which moves hit through and clank with which sized aura spheres

 

[Tenki]

the general rule for grounded attacks is that if one move does within 10% of the other move, they'll clang and cancel each other out, so if you f-tilt or something against a low% Lucario aura sphere, or high% low-charged ones, they'll both cancel each other out.

shielding is better though.

 

[Joshkip]

haha indeed but its just so much fun to do it though.

 

[Tenki]

just wondering, are you familiar with spindash cancels? If you don't already do it, it can supplement your ground game if you learn to use them well.

 

[PSI Locke22]

hey Tenki, who invented the spindash cancel because i see that both you and sonicmaster5 use it alot.

 

[Tenki]

CaliburChamp I think brought up the side-B shield cancel reaaally early on, like in March.

I was the first person to publish information about aerial down-B /ASC shield cancelling.

 

[thecatinthehat]

hey Tenki, who invented the spindash cancel because i see that both you and sonicmaster5 use it alot.

lol how many Sonic mains have you played? Alot of us use it alot. Personally, I think I use it too much.

 

[Joshkip]

just wondering, are you familiar with spindash cancels? If you don't already do it, it can supplement your ground game if you learn to use them well.

yah i use spindash cancels for horizontal recovery when i am trying to get back on stage or getting close to the opponent but i wasnt aware of sonic's asc shield though that one was new to me, i found out about it yesterday.

but on a random note it just really bothers me that sonic is soooooo prone to grabs in his ball form.....i mean its like "oh hey a blue ball of spikes is coming straight at me at a high speed...whats should i do? oh i know i am gonna grab it!"

 

[Sonic-Fan]

lol how many Sonic mains have you played? Alot of us use it alot. Personally, I think I use it too much.

speaking of, I don't think I use them enough.

I can do most of sonic's ATs (side-b shield cancel, ASC landing shield cancel) but I just can't find where to insert them into my gameplay.

When I try to throw them out in matches, I'm usually punished.

EDIT: yeah, what the hell is up with that??? its kind of unfair that he can be grabbed out of it. I mean you can't grab yoshi out of his side b when it's glowing.

 

[Tenki]

yah i use spindash cancels for horizontal recovery when i am trying to get back on stage or getting close to the opponent but i wasnt aware of sonic's asc shield though that one was new to me, i found out about it yesterday.

but on a random note it just really bothers me that sonic is soooooo prone to grabs in his ball form.....i mean its like "oh hey a blue ball of spikes is coming straight at me at a high speed...whats should i do? oh i know i am gonna grab it!"

?_? how do you spindash cancel for horizontal recovery?

I'm talking about shield cancelling a side-B charge, or shieldcancelling an ASC landing.

speaking of, I don't think I use them enough.

I can do most of sonic's ATs (side-b shield cancel, ASC landing shield cancel) but I just can't find where to insert them into my gameplay.

When I try to throw them out in matches, I'm usually punished.

EDIT: yeah, what the hell is up with that??? its kind of unfair that he can be grabbed out of it. I mean you can't grab yoshi out of his side b when it's glowing.

Ay, been there. It looks like you're not seeing the counter-counterstrategy. If you do things like ASC alot and get grabbed out of it, then you can use things like ASC > doublejump D-air to bait and punish a grab and launch your opponent upwards.

Another thing that I like doing is landing an ASC just outside of their grab / F-smash/tilt range, shield cancelling it, then punishing the opponent's missed grab with an attack or a grab of my own.

It's kind of like the 'polarity system' in Ikaruga (LMAO, really?)
- if you don't cancel your ASC's or whatever, your opponent has a set of actions that can be punished if you do cancel ASC.

On the flip side, if you cancel your ASC's alot and your opponent adapts to it, then it opens up a different set of actions that can be punished if you cancel ASC differently or don't cancel it at all.

I was building a thread for that specific purpose, but I'm still waiting for a piece of the puzzle to finish it :[

 

[Sonic-Fan]

?_? how do you spindash cancel for horizontal recovery?

I'm talking about shield cancelling a side-B charge, or shieldcancelling an ASC landing.



Ay, been there. It looks like you're not seeing the counter-counterstrategy. If you do things like ASC alot and get grabbed out of it, then you can use things like ASC > doublejump D-air to bait and punish a grab and launch your opponent upwards.

Another thing that I like doing is landing an ASC just outside of their grab / F-smash/tilt range, shield cancelling it, then punishing the opponent's missed grab with an attack or a grab of my own.

It's kind of like the 'polarity system' in Ikaruga (LMAO, really?)
- if you don't cancel your ASC's or whatever, your opponent has a set of actions that can be punished if you do cancel ASC.

On the flip side, if you cancel your ASC's alot and your opponent adapts to it, then it opens up a different set of actions that can be punished if you cancel ASC differently or don't cancel it at all.

I was building a thread for that specific purpose, but I'm still waiting for a piece of the puzzle to finish it :[

tenki is god.

it looks like good weather for me now!

(HAHAHA DO YOU GET MY JOKE AHAHA....BECAUSE IN JAPANESE TENKI IS...AHAHA.......................yeah...)

 

[Joshkip]

?_? how do you spindash cancel for horizontal recovery?

I'm talking about shield cancelling a side-B charge, or shieldcancelling an ASC landing.

ohh oops my bad i misunderstood you and i need to pay more attention to what i type cause i ment to say spin charge the side-b

yah i do cancel a lot to play some mind games with people. but some of the times they arent all that effective

 

[Jim Morrison]

Here's one:

What is the best thing to do after Footstooling someone. I love to ASC to footstool, because it's the easiest to do, but then what do I use after. I usually go for a spring or HAC.

 

[~TBS~]

Here's one:

What is the best thing to do after Footstooling someone. I love to ASC to footstool, because it's the easiest to do, but then what do I use after. I usually go for a spring or HAC.

wow gf2tw, i cant get that lucky while using asc

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol, you can't use it on wifi though. It's too laggy to pull that off. It's pretty good when done near an edge, so I footstool them down the level, then spring them.

 

[thecatinthehat]

I mentioned that quite awhile ago.

It's one of my favorites.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I cba going trough 13 pages.

 

[thecatinthehat]

lol I don't remember when or where I posted it.

I think it was on one of my alternate accounts.

 

[Tenki]

Here's one:

What is the best thing to do after Footstooling someone. I love to ASC to footstool, because it's the easiest to do, but then what do I use after. I usually go for a spring or HAC.

Oh, I tend to do side-B > footstool.

I usually follow it up with a fastfall techchase or a second ASC > (optional) SDR>aerial.

I need someone who can do frame data testing so I can get that stupid ASC mindgames thread finished. I asked djbrowny and I think he exploded after he saw the list of stuff I wanted.

 

[Joshkip]

actually i have a random question.

has anyone seen the sonic video where sonic does a running up-smash near the edge and the opponent goes straight down?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yes we have.

 

[~TBS~]

when i do that, the person doesn't go STRAIGHT down, but they do go down a little.

 

[thecatinthehat]

actually i have a random question.

has anyone seen the sonic video where sonic does a running up-smash near the edge and the opponent goes straight down?

Yeah. Sheik powershielded. the shield pushed him off the ledge. I guess he was mashing A at that time or something.

I did the same thing with a dash attack the other day. I think it was against DK.'

lol nvm

 

[Joshkip]

well does anyone know how to do that or is it a random thing?

 

[~TBS~]

i think the enemy will have to be at the edge of sonic in ball form

 

[thecatinthehat]

If the up-smash hits the opponent with the right hitboxes, he will get sent downward.

Very situational.

 

[Tenki]

It's:
- Placement (Sonic is between edge and opponent)
- Opponent %
- Timing (beginning of the U-smash has to hit)

 

[ROOOOY!]

I need to suck less.
Seriously, I've hit a rut.
Like, I didn't play Brawl for like a month, came back and played Sonic-Fan on here and played pretty normally.
Then I've played Rick and this other guy online in the last two days, like a day after playing Sonic-Fan and it's just been a massive overload on fail.
I can't even pinpoint what it is that's going wrong. None of my grabs are landing, I can't rack up damage properly, and it's just D:

Has anyone hit a problem like this before and it suddenly stop after a while, or do I just suck?

 

[Tenki]

stop using the B-button, destroy yourself and rebuild?

oh yeah, try a different play style, or play on battlefield lol.

if your grabs aren't landing, it could be:
1) predictability
2) bad reaction time
3) wifi (both)

 

[infomon]

That's deffo happened to me before :/
If you want to get back into it, you just gotta practice. Get re-familiar with control of your character; timing/spacing, etc. Even fighting CPUs can help for this lol.

Taking some time off, and/or switching your character up for a l'il while, can help you find a different groove for your main, too.

 

[ROOOOY!]

As a matter of fact, I never use B button practically.
Literally, one or two ASC's and SCSD's a match, and the only thing I use B button for is recovery.

I need some offline practice really. Sucks my bro doesn't play brawl anymore >_>
Problem is I get bored and just zone out, I can't concentrate, that contributes.

I think the changing playstyles thing would help though.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

ROOOY, our connection was dark orange and the lag was pretty horrible so I wouldn't worry. Those matches were so full of suicides they were almost jokes

Did you like my abuse of bad DI when I Daired you offstage?

<3

I notice a giant drop in my play whenever I play offline and then go back to online. It's natural but just thought I'd warn you