The Sonic 'Self improvement' thread, plus your questions answered! FAQ

[thecatinthehat]

So does tilting smash your help or not?

 

[Tenki]

Tilted Fsmashes kill earlier Tenki. Didn't you post that once? And I also explained that you had to cancel the charge in an eariler post.

And I love this topic :D

Om topic: My wall jump question.

I posted that it works with some characters, but I didn't notice any effect for Sonic's tilted smashes other than hitbox placement.

 

[Napilopez]

So does tilting smash your help or not?

I would do testing myself, but I am in college, so no.

*Summons Tenki*

According to Tenki, there is no killing% difference between tilting up and tilting down. However I don't know if its true about it doing one percent more damage if you tilt up, and the opposite for tilting down.

Tilting is useful for hitting opponents approaching from the air, or on the edge. Would it be an effective edgeguard to tilt downwards against the Spacies' SideBs?

BTW chis, I like the thread.

EDIT: WHAT THE HECK?!?! Tenki comes before I even summon him -_-

What are some effective mindgames you guys use? I have some of my own, but I want other peoples' ideas so I can add a bit more variety when playing longer sets or against people I play regularly.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Should've clarified, does tilting kill earlier?

I guess you've answered that.

 

[Tenki]

Why don't you people test it for yourself on a computer with no DI.

`.`;

I haven't tested it in months, and I don't have access to a wii atm.

 

[Camalange]

What are some effective mindgames you guys use? I have some of my own, but I want other peoples' ideas so I can add a bit more variety when playing longer sets or against people I play regularly.

I like coming off of platforms with a spindash, shield cancel and grab. It's major lulz. I talked to you about this before Napi but I'm gonna bring this up again here.

What do you people think of Sonic's shield pressure game? I was experimenting with something and I broke someones shield TWICE. TWICE. Sonic. BREAKING SHIELD. WITHOUT A SWORD.

I noticed whenever I would start charging a spin charge, my opponent would shield, so I cancelled it, and started another one immediatley and he put his shield right back up. I did it one more time and got the same results. I started up a spin charge, but this time he didn't shield so I turned my spin charge into a spinshot. As I was coming up to him, he put up his shield and I bair'd him in the back, breaking his shield, setting up a perfect F-smash kill. I know this isn't something that would happen a lot or something to rely on, but definatley something to keep in mind. I mean, c'mon, it worked twice. In two different matches.

Discuss please?

 

[thecatinthehat]

mindgames?

- balloon in Smashville.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhnLCLnanzc
0:41 is exactly what I'm talking about.

- dair after spinshot.
- ASC shield cancel
- SDC shield cancel
- 1 jab > run away
- up-throw to side taunt
- down taunt
- multiple dairs on a grounded spring

more later

 

[Napilopez]

I like coming off of platforms with a spindash, shield cancel and grab. It's major lulz. I talked to you about this before Napi but I'm gonna bring this up again here.

What do you people think of Sonic's shield pressure game? I was experimenting with something and I broke someones shield TWICE. TWICE. Sonic. BREAKING SHIELD. WITHOUT A SWORD.

I noticed whenever I would start charging a spin charge, my opponent would shield, so I cancelled it, and started another one immediatley and he put his shield right back up. I did it one more time and got the same results. I started up a spin charge, but this time he didn't shield so I turned my spin charge into a spinshot. As I was coming up to him, he put up his shield and I bair'd him in the back, breaking his shield, setting up a perfect F-smash kill. I know this isn't something that would happen a lot or something to rely on, but definatley something to keep in mind. I mean, c'mon, it worked twice. In two different matches.

Discuss please?

Although I can only recall having broken my opponents shield once with Sonic, and that was apprently due to his shield button sticking, lol.

Anyways, i think Sonic has a pretty nice shield pressure game actually. Not so much for breaking shields, but you can get shields down to a reasonably small size, and then start spamming fair/ftilt/usmash or any multihit/shieldpoking move sonic has. I will hold the charge button forever, both annoying my opponents, and then reducing their shields, and then i will run at them and fiar or usmash, effectively lessening their shield sizes. From here, their shield sizes should be easily poked with Fair or usmash. Using ASC is Also really good for shield pressure. Its relatively easy to pull off a perfect ASC combo on a shield.

Umm... I really don't know what to ask about in this thread though. All i would ask about is olimar, lol, and we already had a whole thread on that.

EDIT:

mindgames?

- balloon in Smashville.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhnLCLnanzc
0:41 is exactly what I'm talking about.

- dair after spinshot.
- ASC shield cancel
- SDC shield cancel
- 1 jab > run away
- up-throw to side taunt
- down taunt
- multiple dairs on a grounded spring

more later

1 jab> run away.

LOL.

Oh man, I forgot to mention in the tourney thread, how since they reduced pool matches times to only 5 minutes. in my first match-up against a captain falcon Time was running out, and he had like 76% and i had like 80, so when he tried to recover I hit him with one of the later hits of dsmash, so he had like 85% percent now, with 5 seconds left.He tried to chase me to do some last second damage, but I ran away and side taunted as falcon couldnt catch up XD.

 

[Camalange]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhnLCLnanzc

Tenki seems to know the perfect thing to do for every situation. It's ridiculous. I love watching him play. I thought I was good at spacing and reading my opponents but sheesh, this is insane.

 

[Chis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhnLCLnanzc

That Ike sucked IMO.

 

[thecatinthehat]

That Ike sucked IMO.

What you talking about, metroid's amazing with Ike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeOv-sBtBig

 

[Tenki]

LMAO cat.

That Ike sucked IMO.

He actually 2-stocked me somewhat consistently towards the beginning of our matches. Aerial-based playstyle is usually tougher for me, personally, to fight. However, I adapted to his style and he didn't adapt to my changes, so that's what resulted.

That vid is a bad representation of him.

It's the same guy that made this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeOv-sBtBig

Mind you, even though I had watched this video previously, he still pulled off some of that stuff on me. He punishes defensive reactions and pure aggressive reactions well, and I kinda took advantage of that and went faux-aggressive (feint+attack) instead.

 

[Chis]

Maybe I've watched Rykoshet's Ike to much: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oBcoT2SpJgY&fmt=18

 

[Tenki]

I now rename this thread the Damocles.

It will become a symbol of-

 

[Chis]

I now rename this thread the Damocles.

It will become a symbol of-

I hope that's not spam Tenki.

 

[SonicLykWut]

Advice appreciated. Much reading/watching was done. Will have to wait until either before or after work tomorrow before I can see if I still suck (as badly) or not. Also have a LOT I want to practice now before I go make an *** out of myself. Thanks again.

 

[R4ZE]

I can't approach. Seriously, I CANNOT approach effectively for the life of me. It's not down to my predictability, because all other elements of my game don't suffer from predictability. I mix it up, but I always seem to pick the wrong option because it just gets countered a lot of the time.
I know it's really vague and general, but...

why is it so important that YOU approach? sonic is a fantastic baiter.

 

[Tenki]

I can't approach. Seriously, I CANNOT approach effectively for the life of me. It's not down to my predictability, because all other elements of my game don't suffer from predictability. I mix it up, but I always seem to pick the wrong option because it just gets countered a lot of the time.
I know it's really vague and general, but...

The problem might not be your predictability as it is your predictions.

Do pseudo approaches that look like they can be countered by something, but actually keep you safe the whole time.
If you run at someone, what do you think their reaction will be?

Will they attack? Will they roll towards you? Will they spotdodge? Will they jump?

Either way, if you screech stop in front of their forward roll range, it should leave you free to punish their reaction.
Like this:

try using the studder dash attack

idk if you were around when that first came up, but you can DA during the animation where sonic is stopping from a run. it always throws people off

approaching with a fairly good timed upsmash, connecting at the apex of the jump works awesome to. you can studder that with a DAC also.

Like the delayed dash attack punishes spotdodges, while masking just how campy you're really playing.

Of course, using a dash attack has its countermovements - like shielding, or jump+d-air, or rolling forwards, but you can get to see what your opponent is more likely to do and prepare for it next time.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

Hello everyone, I need assistance on what to do when an enemy is approaching from the air (like if you hit them up, or if they have a generally jumpy playstyle)

my ground game and punishing game is good, I just have trouble on this one aspect.

 

[Greenstreet]

Hello everyone, I need assistance on what to do when an enemy is approaching from the air (like if you hit them up, or if they have a generally jumpy playstyle)

my ground game and punishing game is good, I just have trouble on this one aspect.

Okay, there are a few options you have.

1. No one can jump forever Fortunately for you, no character has the ability to stay in the air forever, a few get close lol, but no one is up there forever. So in this case, what I am saying is... wait. Evade if you have to and punish when the hit the ground. This can really annoy opponents because you won't succumb to thier playstyle. Remember: if you are losing, you are playing how your opponent wants you to play...
Cons: It won't work all the time because 1. you can't always evade and 2. it's easy for the opponent to avoid you and get a jump in and back into their comfortable zone.

2. Meet them in the air Sonic has pretty low priority, but his moves come out relatively quick, so an air battle could definitely be an option. The key here is to know how to attack effectively. Character like DK have giant blind spots just infront and below them so if you attack at that angle, there is little chance you will get punish for it. Even a homing attack could work, as it aims for the back side of the opponent, usually the opposite side of the hitbox they throw out.
Cons: Sonic has low priority so.... make sure you get your attack out first or be unpredictable. thats the key.

3. Use a ground attack Let them come to you, maybe shield grab their move or u-smash them as they descend. Sonic is fast. So run behind them as they fall and then punish?

The most important thing to do is do nothing the same. Don't be predictable mate. And you'll be set If you shake things up your opponent won't be able to decide which action to take, and most likely will be at a disadvantage. Hope that helps
Updating here very soon... sorry.

 

[Kinzer]

For opponents who prefer the air (like Falco), you probably want to play the same way a ground-punisher Sonic does. Predict what your opponent will do in the air. If they have an offensive approach, find weakspots in your opponent and abuse it, hit them with whatever you got/want. If you have somebody who likes to play it safe and Airdodge, it's just like timing a move, hit them when the invincibilty frames are going to go down.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

thanks guys! I'll give that a try this week...

all my friends use pit, so that's why I gotta deal with this crap all the time...

 

[Greenstreet]

Ok yeah. Pit is pretty slow in the air so you may be best off running underneath for an U-air every now and then? Or running under, then jumping past him and B-airing him, he can't retaliate too well here.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

Ok yeah. Pit is pretty slow in the air so you may be best off running underneath for an U-air every now and then? Or running under, then jumping past him and B-airing him, he can't retaliate too well here.

sweet...death to the spammer...

 

[Greenstreet]

And once you get them off the edge and using their recovery, make sure you hit them asap, then there is no way they will get back. Just drop a spring or something else evil lol.
I am off to bed. L8as.

 

[aeghrur]

And once you get them off the edge and using their recovery, make sure you hit them asap, then there is no way they will get back. Just drop a spring or something else evil lol.
I am off to bed. L8as.

Personally, I prefer to use some well-timed homing attacks. They're really good for getting rid of jumps. Or maybe N-air. Conserve your second jump though or else you MIGHT not make it back.
Also, another thing to counter aerial spam is of course powershield/shield+grab. Sonics grab game is great, so be sure to make use of it.

 

[Chis]

Does anyone else need any more help with their game play? Problems?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't need help atm, i need more training

 

[Jim Morrison]

Okay, so characters are finding it rather easy to edgehog me. As soon as i spring and cant get on stage, im dead. They however hang on the ledge, no invicibility frames. I want to stage spike them. What move do i use (bair not an option, im facing them)

 

[Camalange]

Let yourself drift more...Sonic should be able to recover from just about anywhere unless you let yourself go way too far. Also, if they're edgehogging you and they DON'T have invincibility frames, you can jump on their heads after a spring. If you want a khamakazi kill, you can fair them while recovering and possibly get a fair stage spike, lol.

Bair is always an option. If they just hang there without invincibility, HA could work (if facing them).

HA out of spring...? They're not gonna hang before i sprung

Sorry, it was hard to decipher your post. I thought you meant you just wanted to spike them...and they're just chillin' there...and you're facing him. Was anything else I suggested helpful?

Imported from other thread because Chis likes to keep everything in its respective thread.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Camalange, thanks for posting that. I usually go for f-air, but I just get them above the ledge with f-air and shoot em on the stage :\ I should try n-air

 

[Espy Rose]

Okay, so characters are finding it rather easy to edgehog me. As soon as i spring and cant get on stage, im dead. They however hang on the ledge, no invicibility frames. I want to stage spike them. What move do i use (bair not an option, im facing them)

Alternately, you can try a footstool as you fall near them. However, I wouldn't advise using it if you're a distance away, as most people will see the footstool coming and get on the ledge or something.

Just try to be unpredictable about your recovery, and you should make it back.

Dying off the bottom of the level should almost NEVER happen to you if you recover properly.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Alternately, you can try a footstool as you fall near them. However, I wouldn't advise using it if you're a distance away, as most people will see the footstool coming and get on the ledge or something.

Just try to be unpredictable about your recovery, and you should make it back.

Dying off the bottom of the level should almost NEVER happen to you if you recover properly.

It doesn't happen a lot. But the few times it happens, I wanna stage spike them if I can't footstool.

 

[Tenki]

If you F-air, they can DI out of it. N-air or U-air (first hit, if you're under the ledge) might be better.

 

[Camalange]

Alright I need Diddy help. It seems like Diddy can beat out almost all of my approaches with bananas. Bananas just **** up everything I try to do. Sometimes I can reverse them and start to gain control...but then I lose it again. This Diddy makes my Sonic look awful onstage. 90% of my kills are from edgehogs and gimps (Spring on barrel blast is way too easy). Everything else though from the lagless dash attacks, beast aerials, good ground game, and bananas just eat me. Can anyone help me out here? I'd really appreciate any advice.

 

[Tenki]

Alright I need Diddy help. It seems like Diddy can beat out almost all of my approaches with bananas. Bananas just **** up everything I try to do. Sometimes I can reverse them and start to gain control...but then I lose it again. This Diddy makes my Sonic look awful onstage. 90% of my kills are from edgehogs and gimps (Spring on barrel blast is way too easy). Everything else though from the lagless dash attacks, beast aerials, good ground game, and bananas just eat me. Can anyone help me out here? I'd really appreciate any advice.

Check out some of the more recent stuff we have in the banana thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200255

Basically, don't get caught up with glide tossing.

Jump cancelled tosses (run+ [jump] + [attack]) are so much more useful, controllable, etc.

use Z-catches and Z-drops.

Apparently, most of the good Diddy players I've seen will EXPECT you to throw bananas at them. Your understanding of banana usage pales in comparison to theirs.

So, you can either try to rival their banana usage with your own (remember, it's not just glide tossing and sliding around) - or... you can play a 'disruption' / 'keepaway' game.

If they start doing banana tricks, don't spotdodge, because they usually aim so the banana will land at your feet (anti-dodge) or so that they can grab you after you shield. AlphaZealot told me after some wifi games that one of the best things to do to screw up a Diddy's spacing is to run away. Especially if they're double dribbling back and forth- they have to move and change placement, etc.

oh yeah, don't spindash so much >_>

Jump alot, and if they throw, be ready to catch lol.

Baiting things like f-banana throws @ your landing can be punished with a homing attack to stop your fall + counter their throw.

 

[Camalange]

Check out some of the more recent stuff we have in the banana thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200255

Basically, don't get caught up with glide tossing.

Jump cancelled tosses (run+ [jump] + [attack]) are so much more useful, controllable, etc.

use Z-catches and Z-drops.

I've been following the thread, I just need to learn the jump cancelled tosses. I actually tried the Z-dropping and it's splendid! lol

Apparently, most of the good Diddy players I've seen will EXPECT you to throw bananas at them. Your understanding of banana usage pales in comparison to theirs.

So, you can either try to rival their banana usage with your own (remember, it's not just glide tossing and sliding around) - or... you can play a 'disruption' / 'keepaway' game.

If they start doing banana tricks, don't spotdodge, because they usually aim so the banana will land at your feet (anti-dodge) or so that they can grab you after you shield. AlphaZealot told me after some wifi games that one of the best things to do to screw up a Diddy's spacing is to run away. Especially if they're double dribbling back and forth- they have to move and change placement, etc.

oh yeah, don't spindash so much >_>

Jump alot, and if they throw, be ready to catch lol.

I think this quote just opened my eyes to everything I've been doing wrong. My spot dodging and shielding always gets punished the way you described, so I'll take your advice to run and jump alot lol. Yeah spindashes don't work to well I've realized...my spindash cancel tactics that work on everyone else fail in this matchup because all he has to do is chuck nanners and he'll eventually catch ME off guard and set something up...

Baiting things like f-banana throws @ your landing can be punished with a homing attack to stop your fall + counter their throw.

Thanks for the advice Tenki, I def. need to practice the match up more, but this really helped me out with some things.

 

[Boxob]

Wow I just realized you edited the Haunter out of my post...

**** you, buddy.

 

[SonicX580]

Hey in a few weeks I should be able to play WI-FI can somebody test my ablitites?

 

[Tenki]

A few weeks? I thought you said the 30th?



Also, I'll gladly play.