The Sheik Compendium of Advanced Techniques, Combos, and Tricks (Wii U)

[DKwill]

I don't see any difference.

The angle at which Sheik used to be able to retreat after hitting a BF has been changed. If you were to hold away upon connecting with BF, you could retreat much further. That distance has been decreased noticeably.

 

[JuJux]

So yeah for what i could "test" :

Confirmed :
- BF got nerf in knockback
- I agree with DKwill : The angle the BF had when you retreat has been changed : You now go less further BUT you won't have any lag on landing and u can double jump out of it (worked previously only for the short and normal retreat but not the long one).
- Fair now does 5.5% (can't be sure about the KB ...)
- I don't think needles takes longer to charge, but they definitively have more cooldown (byebye follow up ... At best they're much harder ...)
- Uair got nerf in knockback
- Dash to Usmash (aka hyphen Usmash) is now MUCH harder to perform. Forget it and do a jump cancel Usmash instead.

Deconfirmed :
- You always can cancel your BF on the ledge (Edit : Wall Jump cancel) and perform your 2nd hit whenever you want.
- Side B grenade DO NOT travel more horizontally

Need to be confirmed :
- KB and % of throws ? Can't seem to figure it out.
- Fair has less KB ?
- Dsmash has more KB ? (never used that move actually ...)

The rest seems ok (What I feared the most was having more landing lag on aerial ...). Well not a really good new for us since we got our 2 more reliable killing move nerfed :/ ... Gotta learn to do more safe Usmash huhu )= .

 

[Tristan_win]

So yeah for what i could "test" :



Deconfirmed :
- You always can cancel your BF on the ledge and perform your 2nd hit whenever you want.
- Side B grenade DO NOT travel more horizontally

Need to be confirmed :
- KB and % of throws ? Can't seem to figure it out.
- Fair has less KB ?
- Dsmash has more KB ? (never used that move actually ...)

The rest seems ok (What I feared the most was having more landing lag on aerial ...). Well not a really good new for us since we got our 2 more reliable killing move nerfed :/ ... Gotta learn to do more safe Usmash huhu )= .

What are you referring to about performing your 2nd hit? I think your confused or I'm missing something. With this patch you can't remove the landing lag of bouncing fish with a edge cancel. Before you could Bouncing fish, edge cancel into another bouncing fish or whatever you want, you can't anymore as you wont slide off the stage/platform.

I can guarantee throws (fthrow and dthrow) have the same KB as before and dsmash does as well at 0%, it also cause the 'kill effect' to happen at the same percents as before on Mario if he's standing on the edge of FD.

On another note I decide to take the time to gather all the characters 'kill effect' percents for BF in training mode if they are standing on the edge of FD

Spoiler

| Kill effect
Jiggly | 110
game and watch | 114
kirby | 117
Rosalina | 117
pikachu | 116
Olimar | 118
Fox | 115
Falco | 118
Charizard | 143
Lucario | 132%
Greninja | 126
Duck hunt dog | 126
ROB | 137
Female Marth | 126
Ness | 129
Captain Falcon | 134
Villager | 131
WFT | 130
Mario | 131
Pit | 130
Sulk | 134
Pac man | 129
Mega man | 133
Sonic | 129
Luigi | 131
Peach | 125
Bowser | 152
Yoshi | 136
Bowser jr | 136
Wario | 137
DK | 149
Diddy kong | 126
Link | 135
Zelda | 122
Sheik | 120
Ganondorf | 141
Toon link | 128
Samus | 139
Zero suit samus | 118
Little mac | 120
Meta knight | 118
Dedede | 146
Robin | 129
Ike | 137
Marth | 126
Palutena | 126

 

[JuJux]

What are you referring to about performing your 2nd hit? I think your confused or I'm missing something. With this patch you can't remove the landing lag of bouncing fish with a edge cancel. Before you could Bouncing fish, edge cancel into another bouncing fish or whatever you want, you can't anymore as you wont slide off the stage/platform.

Ow yeah my bad, I thought you were refering to the wall jump BF ... Didn't read well sorry. Yeah, we can't BF edge cancel anymore )= ...

 

[lRasha]

So yeah for what i could "test" :

Confirmed :
- Dash to Usmash (aka hyphen Usmash) is now MUCH harder to perform.

How so?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

For the love of everything, someone tell me DACUS is still in this game.

 

[saviorslegacy]

WHAT THE **** WHAT THE **** WHAT THE ****!!!! HOW DARE THEY!!! HOW DARE NINTENDO DO THIS!!!!!
Who's the slimey **** sucking bugger eating window licking dip **** who had they idea of attempting to balance this game!?
**** this **** I need alcohol.

Are you ready for the ****ing cherry on top. How's this for a load of ****ing ****. I have 2 3DS's and 2 versions of smash. One I have updated, the other I have not.
On the one that has not been updated I was able to perform DACUS 5 times in a row.
On the updated one I could not get a single DACUS... NOT ONE! IT IS GONE! NO MORE DACUS!
They straight up removed it. Bye bye DACUS, nice knowing you.

**** this ****.

 

[Judo777]

For the love of everything, someone tell me DACUS is still in this game.

Been told by multiple people it is not.....

I'm pretty mad about the nerfs. Removing DACUS and ledge cancel BF are the big ones. I was s looking forward to getting more consistent with the BF cancel when i got a GC controller. Don't mind the BF nerf quite as much, (even tho it wasn't killing against proper vectoring until like 150). The fair knockback one makes me really mad tho, because i feel like sheiks gimp game (aka her primary source of landing kills) is drastically reduced by it. Her other aerials when vectored properly don't really do much because they hit upwards for the most.

Fun fact with the nerf to uair (which was debatble in the first place), and fair I think ALL of sheiks aerials (when looking at percents and frame data alone) are worse than they were in brawl.

 

[Wasserwipf]

WHAT THE **** WHAT THE **** WHAT THE ****!!!! HOW DARE THEY!!! HOW DARE NINTENDO DO THIS!!!!!
Who's the slimey **** sucking bugger eating window licking dip **** who had they idea of attempting to balance this game!?
**** this **** I need alcohol.

Thanks. Thats pretty much what I needed right now. I'm calm enough not to post my first reaction here on smashboards, but I'm glad someone did it for me. This deserves to be said.

On to some other things, few things i noticed, no order etc. intended,m just throwing the stuff out i found:
-Don't know if this was already there, but if you throw a nade, jump offstage and throw a second nade, while the first is still out (and thus you only do the aniamtion without throwing a nade, since you can only have 1 nade at a time) you will NOT fall into freefall. This animation can be platform canceld btw (with almost no lag)
-needle gliding is still there (the first thing i checked after noticing they removed BF ... gliding.) (With needle gliding i mean the thing that you glide off the ledge with needles kinda)
-You can do 4 Wallbounces with BF, only 3 people hits still. (Iirc it was only 3 wallbounces before...)
Two little useless things that are awkward
-You can cancel the initional frames of a airdodge with needles. Still posssible (and since you can cancel needles with airdodge you can switch between those two, causing sheik to look strange.)
-You can still backroll up staris (such as on the Side scrolling destert mario levels...)
Those two might just me beeing unexperienced with customs, but whatever
-Bouncing nade seems to only hit 3 times before exploding.
-Penetrating Needles seem to have less range (not even half of FD...)
In addition, I'm pretty sure
-Fair has indeed less knockback. (This might actually be good for certain combos... or at least fair strings)
-Needles have indeed more endlag.

I feel like some moves deal knockback to a slightly different direction, might just be me testing against AI again. I'm used to human VI...

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Welp, if dacus is gone, I think I'm gonna go into some sort of shock somewhere. These nerfs have butchered this beautiful character.

I now have nothing to look forward to in this game.

 

[Absol]

When do we get our buff?

 

[tyhiggz]

On the bright side, she's still the third best looking character after Zero Suit and Jigglypuff.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Alright I have calmed down some.
Since I have 2 copies of smash 4 and 2 3DS's and only updated one of them I am going through and comparing everything.
Here is what I noticed....

DACUS has been removed.
Fair has a knock back decrease and now deals 5% instead of 6%.
Bouncing Fish had its knock back decreased.
Bouncing Fish no longer cancels at the ledge.
Needles have more ending lag.
Uair had it's knock back decreased.
(I found nothing new.)

We had our movement options limited due to the removal of DACUS and ledge canceled BF.
We had our combo options limited due to the increased ending lag of needles and the removal of DACUS.
We had our killing move options limited due to decreased knock back on Fair, Uair and BF.

We had our combo ability buffed due to the decreased knock back on Fair.


Now to get real.
We never used DACUS.
Most of us never effectively used ledge canceled BF.
Needles are still very spammy at long range. We didn't really use them to combo anyways.
The only real nerf here is our ability to kill at lower percents with 2 moves. Most of the time our BF is stale anyways due to using it as a punishing tool. I personally did not get a majority of my kills with it anyways.
Uair being nerfed sucks.

In my honest opinion, the hardest hitting nerf to our current play style was the knock back decrease to Uair.
We mainly had our options limited to what we can do once we get our hands on SSB4 for Wii U.
However, in Wii u version we will have a c-stick and picking up kills with sweet spot Bair is going to be a lot easier.

All and all.... this patch hasn't hurt us that much.







AH HA!!!!!! So someone else went out and tested one of the things on my bucket list.
In Brawl you could do something that I called Needle Ledge Canceling or NLC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcrtM_e89Nc
I was always curious if it would combo into BF but because I felt like our gimp game was good enough already I decided to look into other things. I just came across this gif. https://vine.co/v/OqItrqjD7r3

Oh and something that I forgot to mention.
In melee Sheik could boost her recovery using Fair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpNiClgJcjM skip to 2:30
If I tested correctly this is still a thing in Smash 4. I will get a clip when I get around to it.

:EDIT:
Vectoring was removed.... dthrow> USmash should now be a combo....
fthrow> BF should combo more

 

[Jackson]

Update: DACUS removed. Ledge Canceled Bouncing Fish removed. As said above, these are now absent.

Also: If needles really do lag more now, is Rising Storm even doable now?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Update: DACUS removed. Ledge Canceled Bouncing Fish removed. As said above, these are now absent.

Also: If needles really do lag more now, is Rising Storm even doable now?

Hm, good question.
It seems like only grounded needles has longer ending lag. Air needles seems to be un-touched.

 

[Jackson]

Hm, good question.
It seems like only grounded needles has longer ending lag. Air needles seems to be un-touched.

Cool, thanks for telling me.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Cool, thanks for telling me.

Chain grab is gone. Uair's nerf hit that too.

 

[Jackson]

Chain grab is gone. Uair's nerf hit that too.

Damn, that's too bad. I'll remove it
How was Uair nerfed?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Damn, that's too bad. I'll remove it
How was Uair nerfed?

The knock back was nerfed. This includes the hit box that spiked.

 

[Jackson]

The knock back was nerfed. This includes the hit box that spiked.

Wow, too bad. That's an unfortunate nerf right there.

 

[lRasha]

JuJux said "Dash to Usmash (aka hyphen Usmash) is now MUCH harder to perform." Can anyone explain how? Is there more lag somewhere?

Also, I was pretty cool with Brawl Sheik even with the semi-useless chain (of course I would've liked a better move, but tether was useful). If post-1.0.4 Sheik is better than Brawl Sheik, that's fine with me.

 

[Jackson]

I haven't tried it in 1.04 but I dont see how Hyphen Smash could ever be hard, at least not on a GC controller. Idk about you guys, but when the Wii U version comes out on Friday I wont bother with the 3ds ever again. I despised the controls from the start.

 

[Tristan_win]

So Vi isn't in the game anymore.

We did get a BUFF, the world will burn from our glory.

 

[saviorslegacy]

So Vi isn't in the game anymore.

We did get a BUFF, the world will burn from our glory.

 

[Jackson]

So... does the traditional DI work? I added that into the thread, please tell me if i'm wrong.

 

[tyhiggz]

No chain grab & no DACUS?! How sad.

No more VI?! It had just started to grow on me. It's so much easier and more intuitive than DI although the effect was lesser in the right hands.

 

[MarioMan01]

JuJux said "Dash to Usmash (aka hyphen Usmash) is now MUCH harder to perform." Can anyone explain how? Is there more lag somewhere?

It now needs the circle pad to hit the neutral position before it allows the Usmash, which is a bit harder to pull off than before (I'm still struggling to pull it off consistently).

this is a circle pad issue, which should be non-existent once we get the c-stick back

 

[Blitzern]

I think you should add Sheik's jab lock which can be seen here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoksvQ_27o

Also note that it can't be used on all of the cast.

 

[lRasha]

It now needs the circle pad to hit the neutral position before it allows the Usmash, which is a bit harder to pull off than before (I'm still struggling to pull it off consistently).

this is a circle pad issue, which should be non-existent once we get the c-stick back

JuJu was referring to changes after the 1.0.4 update. The Smash Bros creators made changes to the characters. I wanted to know why Dash to USmash was MUCH harder to perform versus before the update. On a side note, you can change the controls and make the up analog stick not jump. This helps to better perform a USmash.

Also, I'm so honored your first post was a response to me. Lol I kid I kid. Welcome to the smash boards!!!

 

[MarioMan01]

JuJu was referring to changes after the 1.0.4 update. The Smash Bros creators made changes to the characters. I wanted to know why Dash to USmash was MUCH harder to perform versus before the update. On a side note, you can change the controls and make the up analog stick not jump. This helps to better perform a USmash.

Also, I'm so honored your first post was a response to me. Lol I kid I kid. Welcome to the smash boards!!!

Yea, I'm aware that tap controls like to mess up things, so I've had it turned off for a while

I was actually referring to personal experience with performing this: Before the update, i was able to quarter circle up from the dash and time the attack so that i would perform the Usmash. now, in my many attempts, i can only perform this when i let the circle pad hit its neutral position before smashing up, which is pretty awkward for me to switch to after quarter-circling for so long.

And make that the first two posts

 

[Jackson]

Update: Removed Chaingrab

 

[Judo777]

Brawl Sheik even with the semi-useless chain

But seriously the fair nerf was by FAR our biggest nerf IMO. Followed prob by uair. Fair is where much of our pressure and stage control comes from. Thats how we force people offstage and get kills and damage. Now fair just helps them recover....

 

[JuJux]

JuJu was referring to changes after the 1.0.4 update. The Smash Bros creators made changes to the characters. I wanted to know why Dash to USmash was MUCH harder to perform versus before the update. On a side note, you can change the controls and make the up analog stick not jump. This helps to better perform a USmash.

As Marioman01 said (welcome here btw) it's just that dash > quarter circle > A isn't possible anymore to do a Hyphen Usmash. That was the way I performed it (and I don't use tap jump). Now you have to hit the neutral position of the circle pad.
But, as I said, if you want do to the same effect of the hyphen Usmash while doing a quarter circle with the circle pad, just perform a Jump Cancel Usmash.

 

[tyhiggz]

I think you should add Sheik's jab lock which can be seen here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoksvQ_27o

Also note that it can't be used on all of the cast.

It's at 1:15 btw.

After watching the ones before hers, I was worried it was going to be lame. It was not.
nair>nair>nair>fair>up smash (with some short hops and fast falls between all but the last two)

 

[saviorslegacy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSI_7lHgCLs&index=13&list=PL88638F1FBD3B79D0
kinda like this?

 

[Tristan_win]

@ Judo777 Here you g-...Oh wait a second.

BEGIN sheik
**********
Jab1
Hits on frame: 2.0
Hitboxes end: 4.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Jab2
Hits on frame: 2.0
Hitboxes end: 5.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 40
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 60.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

unknown substate 0x55
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 115
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 180.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 40

Dash Attack
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.5
Extra Shield Damage: 1
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 455.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

F-tilt (normal)
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 158
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 80.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 84

U-tilt
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 24.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 125
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 60

D-tilt
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 7.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 262.5
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

F-smash release (normal)
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 28.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 109
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 480.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-smash release
Hits on frame: 11.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 86
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 750.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 93

D-smash release
Hits on frame: 11.0
Hitboxes end: 20.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 6.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 155
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 210.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

Nair
Hits on frame: 3.0
Hitboxes end: 31.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 160.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Fair
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 8.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.5
Max Hitbox BKB: 125
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 220.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 50

Bair
Hits on frame: 4.0
Hitboxes end: 15.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 11.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 330.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Uair
Hits on frame: 4.0
Hitboxes end: 25.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 138
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 200.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

Dair
Hits on frame: 15.0
Hitboxes end: 34.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 240.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 280

Dair Landing
Hits on frame: 1.0
Hitboxes end: 2.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 2.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 150
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 80.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 40

Pummel
Hits on frame: 9.0
Hitboxes end: 10.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.1
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-throw
Hits on frame: 20.0
Hitboxes end: 22.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Extra Shield Damage: 1
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

B-throw
Hits on frame: 15.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Extra Shield Damage: 1
Max Hitbox BKB: 0
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 130

U-throw
Hits on frame: 19.0
Hitboxes end: 21.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

D-throw
Hits on frame: 26.0
Hitboxes end: 31.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 75
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80





unknown substate 0x250
Hits on frame: 34.0
Hitboxes end: 0.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 270

unknown substate 0x252
Hits on frame: 0.0
Hitboxes end: 3.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

I gather none of this data, it is not mine as I'm just re posting it here.

Link to original thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-data-and-hitbox-values-for-every-character-wip.378789/
Link to all charaters frame data: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

 

[ArikadoSD]

All of Sheik's other throw followups seem to all be heavily DI dependent. I recommend going for Bouncing Fish afterFthrow or Bthrow. Uthrow into Uair sometimes works. Dthrow is almost always the best throw option.

I feel like the last statement is incorrect. I rarely use Dthrow, and Fthrow is almost always what I go for. Fthrow into Fair/Uair always connects in my experience, and Fthrow into Uair is awesome if you wanna land a guaranteed uair. I haven't tested this extensively though but I always use Fthrow.

 

[Jackson]

Updated this thread with @ Absol 's new needle techs.

 

[Tristan_win]

I feel like the last statement is incorrect. I rarely use Dthrow, and Fthrow is almost always what I go for. Fthrow into Fair/Uair always connects in my experience, and Fthrow into Uair is awesome if you wanna land a guaranteed uair. I haven't tested this extensively though but I always use Fthrow.

Yeah I think fthrow is the way to go until your opponent reaches a point where it's impossible to follow up fthrow if they DI away. Once they reach that point then I begin to use dthrow as I don't think it's effected by horizontal DI as much as fthrow.

You know what, we still don't know how strong Sheik uair really is. There's been like no testing on it's killing powers besides a little training mode bottom left and right battle field platform... maybe someone should fix that.

 

[Absol]

Yeah I think fthrow is the way to go until your opponent reaches a point where it's impossible to follow up fthrow if they DI away. Once they reach that point then I begin to use dthrow as I don't think it's effected by horizontal DI as much as fthrow.

You know what, we still don't know how strong Sheik uair really is. There's been like no testing on it's killing powers besides a little training mode bottom left and right battle field platform... maybe someone should fix that.

custom stages would make it very easy to test.