The Sheik Compendium of Advanced Techniques, Combos, and Tricks (Wii U)

[Zero Requiem]

Has anyone tried spacing a bouncing towards the ledge so that it will cancel, the height it leaves you at is good for a nade cancel allowing you to instantly grab the ledge. I can't say how effective this could/would be but it looked cool at first glance.

 

[Jackson]

Has anyone tried spacing a bouncing towards the ledge so that it will cancel, the height it leaves you at is good for a nade cancel allowing you to instantly grab the ledge. I can't say how effective this could/would be but it looked cool at first glance.

Yeah, somebody posted a gif in another thread. It looks really cool.

 

[Judo777]

I demand frame data! I call upon the powers of Tristan!

When do my moves come out???? Lol

 

[Absol]

I doubt anyone would be motivated to get frame data on the 3ds version.

 

[Darklink401]

So IDK if anyone has posted this yet, but wow, Sheik is just full of surprises this game.

 

[Jackson]

So IDK if anyone has posted this yet, but wow, Sheik is just full of surprises this game.

Yeah, it's a cool mix up.

 

[tyhiggz]

First, this thread is amazing.

Second, I have some arial questions.
It seems like bair has a sweet spot and has the most knockback of the non-dair arials.
Do nair and fair have sweet spots?
How to fair, bair, and nair rank in knockback?
Do they all auto cancel when you hit the ground or do some or all just have minimal landing lag?

Third, the fun question.
My smash background is n64 in which reverse hitboxes are a fun and powerful combo finisher. Assuming my assumption is correct that bair has the most knockback, would it be possible/practical to follow up a weaker fair with a reverse hitbox bair?
In my head, a combo would be something like f-throw => fair => fair => reverse hitbox bair. I'm not too sure any of these connections are a true combo, but a guy can dream.

 

[Jackson]

First, this thread is amazing.

Second, I have some arial questions.
It seems like bair has a sweet spot and has the most knockback of the non-dair arials.
Do nair and fair have sweet spots?
How to fair, bair, and nair rank in knockback?
Do they all auto cancel when you hit the ground or do some or all just have minimal landing lag?

Third, the fun question.
My smash background is n64 in which reverse hitboxes are a fun and powerful combo finisher. Assuming my assumption is correct that bair has the most knockback, would it be possible/practical to follow up a weaker fair with a reverse hitbox bair?
In my head, a combo would be something like f-throw => fair => fair => reverse hitbox bair. I'm not too sure any of these connections are a true combo, but a guy can dream.

Thanks , glad you enjoyed the thread! Unfortunately I'm not all that qualified to answer your questions. @ Tristan_win maybe?

 

[tyhiggz]

Upon further inspection, the bair doesn't seem to have a reverse hitbox.

 

[ArikadoSD]

First, this thread is amazing.

Second, I have some arial questions.
It seems like bair has a sweet spot and has the most knockback of the non-dair arials.
Do nair and fair have sweet spots?
How to fair, bair, and nair rank in knockback?
Do they all auto cancel when you hit the ground or do some or all just have minimal landing lag?

I agree with you that the bair has most knockback of all of Sheik's aerials. I'd say fair also has pretty decent knockback, but not quite as much as the bair, and the nair I feel is the weakest of them all in terms of knock back.

As for the landing lag, I tried this quickly in the training mode, and both nair and fair had minimal to no lag ( i fel like theres half a second of lag there before I could shield up.. idk lol. and I was trying this while doing a short hop), but the bair has some obvious although minimal landing lag

 

[Wasserwipf]

First, this thread is amazing.

Second, I have some arial questions.
It seems like bair has a sweet spot and has the most knockback of the non-dair arials.
Do nair and fair have sweet spots?
How to fair, bair, and nair rank in knockback?
Do they all auto cancel when you hit the ground or do some or all just have minimal landing lag?

Third, the fun question.
My smash background is n64 in which reverse hitboxes are a fun and powerful combo finisher. Assuming my assumption is correct that bair has the most knockback, would it be possible/practical to follow up a weaker fair with a reverse hitbox bair?
In my head, a combo would be something like f-throw => fair => fair => reverse hitbox bair. I'm not too sure any of these connections are a true combo, but a guy can dream.

Ok, for the aerials, Nair and Bair have a sweet spot. The easiest way to get good knockback is to fastfall it from above into them while using Fair.
Nair on the other hand has various damage output. If you hit them straight or from below, it deals max dmg (8%) and knockback, if you FF your Nair into your opponent from above it does less damage (5%).
Bair>Fair>Nair, however, against bowser in training, I needed about 180% for the Bair and 190% forn the nair kill. So the difference is noit too big actually.
As far as i know, Nair and Fair have 10 Frames of landing lag, thats about 1/6 of a second (60 FPS, then math...). Bair has... 18 iirc, but tbh i don't know this ecactly.

You'll probably be sad about this: Bair has no reverse hitbox. Even tho it has a big hitbox, and can even hit infront of Sheik, it always knocks the opponent the other way. However, both Nair and Fair have a reverse hitbox (you'll have to hit from below and on your back side, thats the easiest way). So as far as combos go, you probably have to work with weak and strong hits, maybe start of with a weak Bair and hit then with the reverse Hhitbox of a strong Fair. Or the other way round, weak reverse Fair into strong Bair. RAR will be your freind here.
Messing around a little bit I was able to set up some kills, however, training, and extremly hard to hit, so I don't know how useful this really is.

 

[Darklink401]

Ok, for the aerials, Nair and Bair have a sweet spot. The easiest way to get good knockback is to fastfall it from above into them while using Fair.
Nair on the other hand has various damage output. If you hit them straight or from below, it deals max dmg (8%) and knockback, if you FF your Nair into your opponent from above it does less damage (5%).
Bair>Fair>Nair, however, against bowser in training, I needed about 180% for the Bair and 190% forn the nair kill. So the difference is noit too big actually.
As far as i know, Nair and Fair have 10 Frames of landing lag, thats about 1/6 of a second (60 FPS, then math...). Bair has... 18 iirc, but tbh i don't know this ecactly.

You'll probably be sad about this: Bair has no reverse hitbox. Even tho it has a big hitbox, and can even hit infront of Sheik, it always knocks the opponent the other way. However, both Nair and Fair have a reverse hitbox (you'll have to hit from below and on your back side, thats the easiest way). So as far as combos go, you probably have to work with weak and strong hits, maybe start of with a weak Bair and hit then with the reverse Hhitbox of a strong Fair. Or the other way round, weak reverse Fair into strong Bair. RAR will be your freind here.
Messing around a little bit I was able to set up some kills, however, training, and extremly hard to hit, so I don't know how useful this really is.

You could just go from fair to fair to RAR bair no?

To make up for the fact it has no reverse hitbox. Also, back air is SO good to get in the sweetspot.

I usually get it by jumping once after a recovering opponent, predicting when they jump, to use my second jump, and almost immediately when Im at the top of the second jump, I bair.

 

[Cho]

As far as i know, Nair and Fair have 10 Frames of landing lag, thats about 1/6 of a second (60 FPS, then math...). Bair has... 18 iirc, but tbh i don't know this ecactly.

Sorry for going a bit off-topic now, but maybe it'll be useful for some of you:

Someone posted this link on Smashboards a while ago - afaik a japanese player made it and thats the translated version. However I don't know where I found this link, so I'm sorry for that. According to this chart Sheiks Bair has only 12 frames of landing lag.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uwEvYc82aUOUJ22_NE_oK3LlmUglglrwN0_A_aiTKlM/edit#gid=0

 

[Jackson]

Sorry for going a bit off-topic now, but maybe it'll be useful for some of you:

Someone posted this link on Smashboards a while ago - afaik a japanese player made it and thats the translated version. However I don't know where I found this link, so I'm sorry for that. According to this chart Sheiks Bair has only 12 frames of landing lag.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uwEvYc82aUOUJ22_NE_oK3LlmUglglrwN0_A_aiTKlM/edit#gid=0

Nice find, thanks for posting it. Do we know if all the numbers are legitimate?

 

[Cho]

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/
That's the thread... But I'm afraid that I am in no position to confirm or deny the accuracy of the data.

(For what it's worth: It always felt accurate)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You can however, not wave bounce on the ground. The reason being that any back input to perform a turn around b will put you into a sliding turn around. You can only jump out of this. In other words, a wave bounce on the ground is impossible.

Actually, I was able to find a way to wavebounce on the ground in Brawl a while ago. (Back then I always used 'wavebounce' incorrectly and would have referred to it as an SMS or something stupid, but I know what I'm talking about these days; the combination of a 'turn around special' and a 'special reversal', i.e. a 'wavebounce'; on the ground.) As you said, it can't be done out of a run because you can't make a neutral-special (or a side-special) go backwards directly out of the run (i.e. you can't do a 'turn around special' directly out of a run). But out of a tilted run, i.e. a full speed walk, well that's a different story.
Out of a full speed walk, you can do a grounded 'turn around special' and slide backwards slightly in the direction of your initial walk. The slide effect will no doubt be less, but there's no reason why you can't tilt run forwards, go directly into using your needles in the opposite direction while sliding slightly backwards, then instantly reverse this by hitting backwards (the direction you were originally tilt running), then cancel the needle charge with shield.
It's not the same I know; part of the reason why people liked the tech was because they could do it out of a dash or a run. But there you go. Wavebouncing on the ground is possible.

 

[Judo777]

I actually showed b reversing and wave bouncing. The difference is actually the direction in which Sheik is traveling. If you switch your momentum and move forward it is a b reverse. If you perform a b turn around and then a b reverse you will perform your b move and move in the opposite direction from a normal b reverse. This is a wave bounce.
I was just stupid at the time when I made this video and did not know the difference.

You can however, not wave bounce on the ground. The reason being that any back input to perform a turn around b will put you into a sliding turn around. You can only jump out of this. In other words, a wave bounce on the ground is impossible.


I am honestly not as excited about this tech as some of you seem to be. I spent a lot of time in Brawl trying to use a grounded b reverse, pivot walking and moon dashing for spacing. The only problem is that not only do they require a very specific analog input which feels very awkward but they also require you to have a certain amount of momentum before you can use them, thus a start up time. Wave dashing is only good because you can hammer the input in very fast (not unlike DACUS) and because wave dashing involved jumping. If wave dashing required you to be in a sticky dash and did no involve jumping or if it required you to dash first and only went one direction, then it would have seen little to no use.
The only use that this has is as a fake out. In Melee some times players would run at the foe in hopes that they would perform an action. The way they would punish would be to wave dash back and then counter attack. Marth was notorious for doing this and then fsmash.

Honestly we already have perfect back peddling spacing tool. Dash, input f-tilt/fsmash backwards. The only thing we need for our spacing game is the ability to do that same thing but forwards. If we could cancel our needles on it's first couple of frames while running forward and then not getting a shield out then we would be set. This could be used for not only combos, but as a very nice spacing game.

Actually in Brawl on several occasions in brawl I managed to do grounded turn around bs (which is the precursor to i guess what you would call a wave bounce). For clarity i always revered to B-reverse as a b move in the opposite direction that switched your momentum, and a turn around b as a the same thing without the momentum swap (the inpt was hitting the opposite direction, then coming to neutral, then hitting b) and everything else was a combination of those 2. It was possible to do double reverses (do a turn around input, then do the standard b reverse as if you were facing the other way to swap momentum and be facing the direction you were facing initially).

Anyway I was trying to find a way to do needle glides (where you run off stage charging needles and maintain dash momentum for those who didn't know in Brawl) while facing inward on the stage (so a needle glide facing backwards with no momentum swap) to straight up **** diddy kongs recovery. I actually had managed to do it several times on accident while practicing b reverse needle glides (off platforms usually but I got it to trigger offstage on solid non platform floors). I had a few replays in brawl of my doing them. I asked several pretty mechanic savy people (such as GiMR) to help me figure out how to replicate it (reliably and not on accident once every 15 tries) but we never could.

Many people when i told them said they didn't think it was possible for the reason you described, which ordinarily I would also agree with, except i had already done it (part of the reason I saved the replays).

 

[Darklink401]

I'd think it'd be easier to just run, turn around quickly and short hop back, then use the needles.

 

[Judo777]

I'd think it'd be easier to just run, turn around quickly and short hop back, then use the needles.

Yea but its really not the same effect at all. the situation you described, is slower (requires about 3 times as long to perform), uses my double jump, and hits a much more limited range with the needles.

The technique i was attempting would spray the underside of the ledge all the way down to almost the hour glass with needles, and give me a double jump, and significantly higher frame advantage to guarantee he dies. The solution diddy used to use to deal with stuff like that is to hold their up b charge to wait out your attack. But the geometry of the setup would allow me to follow up with a DJ tether, or a falling nair to swat him.

Like literally I feel like if it was performed correctly (at the correct time) there would be absolutely no way diddy could recover it would cover all of his options several times over.

 

[Darklink401]

I'd only use one jump to short hop out of the ledge, but I definitely see where it's a lot faster.

It seems complicated tho x.x

 

[tyhiggz]

Ok, for the aerials, Nair and Bair have a sweet spot. The easiest way to get good knockback is to fastfall it from above into them while using Fair.
Nair on the other hand has various damage output. If you hit them straight or from below, it deals max dmg (8%) and knockback, if you FF your Nair into your opponent from above it does less damage (5%).
Bair>Fair>Nair, however, against bowser in training, I needed about 180% for the Bair and 190% forn the nair kill. So the difference is noit too big actually.
As far as i know, Nair and Fair have 10 Frames of landing lag, thats about 1/6 of a second (60 FPS, then math...). Bair has... 18 iirc, but tbh i don't know this ecactly.

You'll probably be sad about this: Bair has no reverse hitbox. Even tho it has a big hitbox, and can even hit infront of Sheik, it always knocks the opponent the other way. However, both Nair and Fair have a reverse hitbox (you'll have to hit from below and on your back side, thats the easiest way). So as far as combos go, you probably have to work with weak and strong hits, maybe start of with a weak Bair and hit then with the reverse Hhitbox of a strong Fair. Or the other way round, weak reverse Fair into strong Bair. RAR will be your freind here.
Messing around a little bit I was able to set up some kills, however, training, and extremly hard to hit, so I don't know how useful this really is.

Thanks, everyone.
I totally forgot about RAR. It's going to take some time to get used to the newer tools I have at my disposal.

 

[Jackson]

Yeah, RAR bair is a pretty great option imo.

 

[Darklink401]

Wasn't RAR a thing in Melee? O.o

 

[Jackson]

Wasn't RAR a thing in Melee? O.o

Nah. It was introduced in Brawl.

 

[Darklink401]

Huh....

Was DACUS in Melee?

Cuz Ive heard of Snake, Sonic, etc doing it, but nothing relating it to Melee x.x

 

[Jackson]

Huh....

Was DACUS in Melee?

Cuz Ive heard of Snake, Sonic, etc doing it, but nothing relating it to Melee x.x

Haha, no. If you mentioned Sonic, are you thinking of project M?

 

[Darklink401]

Naw, just pointin out that I DID hear about Brawl characters doing it, but not Melee characters.
Wow, there's a lot about the Brawl metagame I never knew about XD (I just played it casually)

 

[Jackson]

Naw, just pointin out that I DID hear about Brawl characters doing it, but not Melee characters.
Wow, there's a lot about the Brawl metagame I never knew about XD (I just played it casually)

Yeah, there's a lot more weird techs than you would think.

 

[Tristan_win]

Okay, I'm going to state some really obvious stuff but I feel it needs to be said, possibly again.

When Sheik is clinging to a wall here are her options.

Wall jump, or press the direction opposite of the wall (it's a diagonal jump that make Sheik cover space more quickly then normal)
Extra Jump (hit up or jump)
Down to let go of the wall
Jump into up B (can't seem to go straight into up B.)
Jump into uair (same reason)
Bouncing Fish
Side B aka DEATH
Nair
Bair
Fair
Dair aka the most amazing gimp ever...DEATH

• When Sheik wall cling she does not lose her 2nd jump so if you say drop from the ledge to immediately wall cling you can wall jump or use a extra jump into whatever you want like. One possible use is for edge guarding, extra jump, bouncing fish, double jump, and up B to return to the stage.
  
• Sheik can cling for a fairly long time but she cannot do it more then 5 times, on the 5th attempt you hold on for only a split second before falling unable to cling anymore.
• You do not need to hold toward the stage to continue the cling.
  
• Sheik Wall jump and Cling are on the same timer, however you can jump a bit sooner before you can wall cling again if you time out.
  
• When using the bouncing fish to recover no matter the range as long as you hit the wall while on at least some part of the screen you can recover. Once you hit the wall immediately attack again to lessen then lag while you continue to hold toward the stage. You should always have enough time to wall cling and from there it's just a simple climb up the side of the stage.
• The best way to climb from a wall cling is normal jump, wall jump, cling, rinse and repeat.

 

[Jackson]

Okay, I'm going to state some really obvious stuff but I feel it needs to be said, possibly again.

When Sheik is clinging to a wall here are her options.

Wall jump, or press the direction opposite of the wall (it's a diagonal jump that make Sheik cover space more quickly then normal)
Extra Jump (hit up or jump)
Down to let go of the wall
Jump into up B (can't seem to go straight into up B.)
Jump into uair (same reason)
Bouncing Fish
Side B aka DEATH
Nair
Bair
Fair
Dair aka the most amazing gimp ever...DEATH

• When Sheik wall cling she does not lose her 2nd jump so if you say drop from the ledge to immediately wall cling you can wall jump or use a extra jump into whatever you want like. One possible use is for edge guarding, extra jump, bouncing fish, double jump, and up B to return to the stage.
  
• Sheik can cling for a fairly long time but she cannot do it more then 5 times, on the 5th attempt you hold on for only a split second before falling unable to cling anymore.
• You do not need to hold toward the stage to continue the cling.
  
• Sheik Wall jump and Cling are on the same timer, however you can jump a bit sooner before you can wall cling again if you time out.
  
• When using the bouncing fish to recover no matter the range as long as you hit the wall while on at least some part of the screen you can recover. Once you hit the wall immediately attack again to lessen then lag while you continue to hold toward the stage. You should always have enough time to wall cling and from there it's just a simple climb up the side of the stage.
• The best way to climb from a wall cling is normal jump, wall jump, cling, rinse and repeat.

Good info, will likely add some version of this information into the thread later.

 

[Judo777]

Okay, I'm going to state some really obvious stuff but I feel it needs to be said, possibly again.

When Sheik is clinging to a wall here are her options.

Wall jump, or press the direction opposite of the wall (it's a diagonal jump that make Sheik cover space more quickly then normal)
Extra Jump (hit up or jump)
Down to let go of the wall
Jump into up B (can't seem to go straight into up B.)
Jump into uair (same reason)
Bouncing Fish
Side B aka DEATH
Nair
Bair
Fair
Dair aka the most amazing gimp ever...DEATH

• When Sheik wall cling she does not lose her 2nd jump so if you say drop from the ledge to immediately wall cling you can wall jump or use a extra jump into whatever you want like. One possible use is for edge guarding, extra jump, bouncing fish, double jump, and up B to return to the stage.
  
• Sheik can cling for a fairly long time but she cannot do it more then 5 times, on the 5th attempt you hold on for only a split second before falling unable to cling anymore.
• You do not need to hold toward the stage to continue the cling.
  
• Sheik Wall jump and Cling are on the same timer, however you can jump a bit sooner before you can wall cling again if you time out.
  
• When using the bouncing fish to recover no matter the range as long as you hit the wall while on at least some part of the screen you can recover. Once you hit the wall immediately attack again to lessen then lag while you continue to hold toward the stage. You should always have enough time to wall cling and from there it's just a simple climb up the side of the stage.
• The best way to climb from a wall cling is normal jump, wall jump, cling, rinse and repeat.

Doesn't using extra jump from the wall consume your double jump? I am pretty sure you cannot extra jump then double jump (at least you couldn't in brawl and pretty sure you can't in smash 4 either). Wall jump however does not to my knowledge.

Also I need to do some testing, in brawl any character with a wall cling could essentially stay on a wall indefinitely (you could scale the largest possible wall in stage builder with diddy easily who has the shortest extra jump).

 

[Tristan_win]

Doesn't using extra jump from the wall consume your double jump? I am pretty sure you cannot extra jump then double jump (at least you couldn't in brawl and pretty sure you can't in smash 4 either). Wall jump however does not to my knowledge.

Also I need to do some testing, in brawl any character with a wall cling could essentially stay on a wall indefinitely (you could scale the largest possible wall in stage builder with diddy easily who has the shortest extra jump).

Honestly just try it yourself, pick a omega stage with a wall, grab the ledge, let go and hold towards the wall, once your clinging hit jump, and then jump again. Also immediately after I found the way to ascend up walls the first thing I tried to do was stall with this and we can't. I couldn't get it to work beyond 5 clings so either that's the limit or there's a combine limit of how long Sheik can cling for.

 

[Judo777]

Honestly just try it yourself, pick a omega stage with a wall, grab the ledge, let go and hold towards the wall, once your clinging hit jump, and then jump again. Also immediately after I found the way to ascend up walls the first thing I tried to do was stall with this and we can't. I couldn't get it to work beyond 5 clings so either that's the limit or there's a combine limit of how long Sheik can cling for.

Yea sorry I'm at work or I would have lol. I'll post findings later.

 

[Tristan_win]

I just grab Bowser Jr off the ledge with a dash grab.

I call for the powers of @ saviorslegacy to look into this working on the rest of the cast if anyone.

 

[Darklink401]

I just grab Bowser Jr off the ledge with a dash grab.

I call for the powers of @ saviorslegacy to look into this working on the rest of the cast if anyone.

As in, he was hanging on the edge?

Cuz that could be big.

 

[Utena]

maybe it was a boost grab or some other weird grab tech?

 

[Wasserwipf]

maybe it was a boost grab or some other weird grab tech?

You can running grab him, however, simple standing grab works as well. I testedit only on a few characters but it didn't work for any other (i testet only 5 tho...). Koopa Jr. has to be hanging on the ledge without invulnerability frames. Then he can be grabbed with any kind of grab you want.
The whole thing looks really cool and stupid at the same time but it works.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I just grab Bowser Jr off the ledge with a dash grab.

I call for the powers of @ saviorslegacy to look into this working on the rest of the cast if anyone.

So yeah, just dropped in for a moment and noticed this.
I believe it has to do with the position of the character that is grabbing the ledge. This is not some kind of a tech.

I tested the whole cast and this is what I found.
A standing grab at the far ledge will grab Bowser jr. and Charizard.
A dash grab will grab DK, MK, Ness, Villager and Olimar. (aka, dudes with big heads)
I could not get it to work on anyone else. MK is the hardest to grab.

I am still out to sea so I'll talk to you guys again in a _____ number of days.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Any tips on killing with Sheik?

 

[Darklink401]

Any tips on killing with Sheik?

Best ways I kill with her are chasing the opponent with either fair and bair after I launch them off the stage, or like lauching them up, and up-air. I think she'll be able to kill a lot more reliably once she gets her DACUS with the Gamecube controller.