The real reason Japan is better than America

[kailo34ce]

literally if they had any random excuse for why japan won, they would find it, even something like how they have less stages, even tho like 80% of matches happen on bf or sv

 

[Dark.Pch]

i think they are trying to say every match you play on a weird stage is a waste of time? and japan doesnt waste their time with it and dont focus on weirdness?

their solid logic isnt really there besides "hey they placed higher lets copy them"

instead of "hey lets just play more and get better"

If that is what is trying to be said, then that is even more of excsuse then what I brought up.

I stand by the reason being 'solid fundamentals'. Those take a very long time to learn and the Japanese have plenty of focus on that with their stage list choice. When you have the basics down, gimmicks are like simple amendments to your skill set.

The Japanese, for example, have experience with IC's on FD, since there are no stage bans. If you then just let them know that, "hey, on Delfino there's a walkoff portion... don't get grabbed vs DDD", they can utilize their strong fundamental knowledge to that stage.

If you say there is a stage specific infinite that their character can use, I'd bet that they'd be able to utilize it in under a day because the fundamental character control is just that good.

===

So in essence, they beat us on our counterpicks because fundamental knowledge requires hours of practice to perfect and utilize in various configurations (more aerial combat vs more ground combat, projectile and item techniques, etc), while stage gimmicks are facts that can be learned and integrated into gameplay in a relatively short amount of time.

Or you can just say We lost on our stages cause Japanese are simple smarter then the USA and don't focus on just camping and timing people out for hours. USA does not seem to care about advance character meta games cause of this. its all money, money, money. "I have to get known in the community to actually be someone. The hell with meta game improvement when I can just do this and get money" So to blame stages and take the blame on yourself is just silly and lame.

Also I forgot to say another thing. The japanese have no fear at all. Nerves don't kick in. They just play. I remember apex 2010 when it was brood vs m2k last game. That last hit when everyone was shook and all. Even M2k. brood was calm like if he had the lead the whole time, and nothing to worry about. Like nothing is on the the line. They play for pride and not foolish stuff like money or stand out in the community. Cause of this They have no fear and can always maintain a clear focus mind. Winning or losing. Also it takes the japanese one match to read one solidly and then go to ****** the next.

Meta games not advancing cause of meta knight is only have true. People getting sick and tired of their characters getting ****ed over cause of meta knight and how foul people use him. So They bother of returning the favor with a meta ditto or just picking him up/maining him to have a better shot at the green. This I can understand and it is play to win.

Though that does not mean you can't actually sit at him or with buddies and play with your characters and learn things. Make things up. Play around with stuff. I am pretty sure people do smashfest alot. Thats a time to get better and practice stuff. Not a time to see how many wins you can go without losing a fight and think you hawt **** infront of your friends and show off.

USA lost at both the japanese stages and ours. So there is no way I can accept the stages as an excuse for USA losing. Really when game one is ALWAYS ON A STARTER. USA has too much pride. But not the good kind and seriously need to get off that. Face it,USA just got outplayed hard to a point your foul tatics you use to win with here could not scratch the japanese.

 

[infiniteV115]

Guys
eu rope

 

[zmx]

This



This


RC/Brinstar need to go nevertheless, Apex Stage List [+ PS2 maybe] is the best.

Beside that, just get better and stop all the whine/johns.

Might change Land of the Free to Land of the Johns.

Well there are certainly a lot of Johns in America. Such as John12346 in this topic.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Maybe the reason they are better than us is because they play with a higher time limit which makes it so they focus less on timing players out and more on actually fighting the opponent.

 

[John12346]

But it is true, I am one of the most John people around.

But real talk, what Dark Pch said is kinda interesting, I gotta take another look through that, for sure.

 

[Tesh]

Guys maybe Japan is better because they *insert rule change that fits my agenda* .

I don't think it would be hard to lose Brinstar and RC however. The MK legal metagame never saw much growth on those stages in most matchups anyway. They've always been essentially gone for most characters anyway.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Maybe the reason they are better than us is because they play with a higher time limit which makes it so they focus less on timing players out and more on actually fighting the opponent.

Not sure if this is some troll post to sound funny online, but in the case that it is not, i wanna bring something up. If they choose to time people out, then that is their own then. Though when the Japanese did not give them that option, What did the USA have left? Nothing. Cause they choose to focus on one thing. USA limited their options Thinking all they needed to do is time out and camp. it was strip apart and got finished cause they had nothing left to defend themselves with.

Good example would be Peach Vs Falco. All he wants to do is camp the peach player. And F-B away. Thinking he got this **** in the bag. Thats all he focused on in the match up. But this fool was not expecting for the Peach player to actually sit down and think of ways to approach falco in save ways and deal damage. Now his camping is limited. he can't run away as much as he thought he could. Ne has no choice but to deal with peach pressure game and fight her off. One problem though. The fool never learned how to fight Peach up close. he never thought of the possibility of Peach actually getting close to him and handing his own *** to him. he limit himself with just camping and running away causes that what he thought was needed to win the match up. And did not think Peach could actually deal with that.

And this is what happen at apex. USA limit themselves for years, and thought they were hawt **** cause they get away with it here. But when it came to the japanese who explore options with even simple characters, you get the results that happen at apex 2012 and a salty country.

 

[Ruuku]

Take it the way you want but I wanna argue that USA was only USA because Japanese players showed up.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

There were a couple of responses, but this one sums them up pretty well:

You know, reading through this thread is depressing. You have obviously not learned the lesson Apex 2012 showed. The moral of your defeat is obvious, you know why you lost, but you intend to stay with the mentality of " If I lose, I can blame something else for my loss and it's ok.... right? ". You will not grow as a community unless you lose that. The best way to do so is to attend international tournies that are not held in the US. For example, since when have any of you ever traveled outside the US to attend? Only a handful, such as Ally and a few others, have attended a tournament that is outside. Japan has traveled to Apex twice and none of you have ever bothered to attend Japan's biggest national, Sunrise Tournament., which is the only tournament you would ever be interested in because it involves money. A lot of money might I add.

The base of this post is, what are you going to do about your loss? Sit on SWF and whine about how you were defeat and john about if he would have~. No should be the answer. If you want to get better, then attend International tournaments outside the US.

SRT, or Sunrise tournament is being held in Kita - ku , Tokyo, near Ojiekimae Station, in early August. If you want to get better, hope to see you there.

I'm not necessarily blaming the stages themselves, but rather investigating the method we use to improve. When we try to improve on ourselves while stage gimmicks are in play, then our focus diverges. The Japanese improve on themselves without stage gimmicks, and have that helps them refine their practice methods.

What they get out of that is then transferable to other stages.

So yeah, I'm not blaming stages, I'm blaming our method of practice.

 

[Elessar]

I think that it's a matter of culture most than anything else. The Japanese are used to obsessing over mastery of one thing and inputting insane hours into their games, while Americans in general aren't. Also, the way I saw it, USA didn't get wrecked, just outplayed by, possibly, slightly more dedicated and committed players. I just watched the M2K vs Ocean match, and while M2K did lose, he barely did so. Saying that M2K got wrecked would be like saying that vVv Zero got wrecked vs Ally, which is not what happened.

All in all, USA got outplayed by, possibly, more dedicated gamers. No need to suddenly feel like you've been exposed as huge noobs in the game and thus need to re ***** everything you know about it. Just take it as an indicator that the game still has more to offer, the metagame for all characters is far from done evolving, and that maybe it's time to put a LOT more of work into the character that best siuts you and your style over the most "successful" one.

Edit: Also, I agree with Tuen 100%. Stages are supposed to be just the location of the match, not take an active participation in it because then you can semi abuse then to score wins, and thus win due to a stage advantage or gimmick rather than your own skill.

 

[AllyKnight]

No one really practiced. I didn't at the very least, my fault. I don't think I needed it though. I rushed Nietono in the wrong way game 2 n 3 =l Japan are still amazing. But I wouldn't say they better than us. This is their first win over us.

 

[zmx]

I think that it's a matter of culture most than anything else. The Japanese are used to obsessing over mastery of one thing and inputting insane hours into their games, while Americans in general aren't. Also, the way I saw it, USA didn't get wrecked, just outplayed by, possibly, slightly more dedicated and committed players. I just watched the M2K vs Ocean match, and while M2K did lose, he barely did so. Saying that M2K got wrecked would be like saying that vVv Zero got wrecked vs Ally, which is not what happened.

All in all, USA got outplayed by, possibly, more dedicated gamers. No need to suddenly feel like you've been exposed as huge noobs in the game and thus need to re ***** everything you know about it. Just take it as an indicator that the game still has more to offer, the metagame for all characters is far from done evolving, and that maybe it's time to put a LOT more of work into the character that best siuts you and your style over the most "successful" one.

Edit: Also, I agree with Tuen 100%. Stages are supposed to be just the location of the match, not take an active participation in it because then you can semi abuse then to score wins, and thus win due to a stage advantage or gimmick rather than your own skill.

Just to correct one of your points, I would say that Zero vs Ally really wasn't close even if stocks and percent made it seem as such. It was pretty obvious Ally was trolling the entire set and still came out on top 4-0.

M2K and Ocean was definetly even though. I don't think anybody has said that he got wrecked...
Smashers do love to exaggerate no doubt. Especially when it comes to players they don't like.

 

[Elessar]

I agree with Ally in that they are amazing, but not superior as everyone now seems to believe.

And about the Ally and Zero match, it seemed pretty close, but it's true that Ally didn't seem to be his usual self during the match. Not sure if that's due to lack of practice (as he just said), being tired, or just trolling/toying with Zero. And, be those the case, Zero still didn't get wrecked.

Edit: I just made the wrecked clarification since that's the statement I made in my original post, not that they were even or that Zero has Ally's skill level.

 

[AllyKnight]

I didn't troll/play with him. Either no practice or it's how my mind wanted to play Snake.

 

[Elessar]

I think zmx believes you were trolling, or some people do, since you really didn't play how you usually play your snake, you seemed a bit off, or distracted even during parts of the set.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

If i do play, i'm def. gona be exploring more into wario as apposed to going only to win with mk. I think wario has alot of room to grow as me, and other warios showed at apex.


I can see wario winning a national, with little help from 2ndaries.


That being said, I understand that the japense aren't leagues ahead of us. I do however still think, even if we just do it by region for now, limitting the stage list to the big three will help us improve as best we can, given that it's this late into the game. I feel like the only things we can work on are spacing and i know we CAN do it on halberd, but with less to distract us mid game, i feel we can improve BETTER on the big three. I'm not trying to shove an ideals down anyone's throats. But i always believed if there is a good way to do something, and a better way, i'm gonna go with the better way, even if the difference is minimal.

 

[Orion*]

No one really practiced. I didn't at the very least, my fault. I don't think I needed it though. I rushed Nietono in the wrong way game 2 n 3 =l Japan are still amazing. But I wouldn't say they better than us. This is their first win over us.

homie it's the only time we also legit had a decent sample of their top players also LMAO

 

[Elessar]

You have a good point Seibrik, but people can just claim (as I think someone already did) that then, you could just practice in those stages and then extrapolate your knowledge.

In any case, I do also agree that the stage list needs to be modified a bit since you cannot have the stage itself be e determiner of the match's outcome. Be it FO flipping and trapping you beneath it, or the crane arm in Halberd hitting you right as you go off flying so you can't react yet. Those things are random, hence why pictochat isn't legal anymore.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

People will argue they're not random because you can gain skill on the stages avoiding it.


The thing people need to understand is on a competative level, there shouldn't be things on the stages to avoid in the first place, except for the person your competing against.

 

[Juushichi]

Guys, so many people are going "this is why we aren't as good as the japanese!" "the japanese said ___" that they don't actually LISTEN to the Japanese players, lol.

Japanese players have even come out and said essentially that they (a don't consider themselves a much higher level comparing [or even that they're better at all], (b that already there is a large collection of players IN the US that can match the collection of their smaller collection of top players and (c that we should be PLAYING THE ****ING GAME and improving overall.

We're doing something right already. Refine your technique. Practice before tournaments. Study your opponents. If you want to keep squawking "that's what the Japanese did!" then those three things are exactly what the Japanese players have done.

We out.

 

[Mekos]

I didn't troll/play with him. Either no practice or it's how my mind wanted to play Snake.

ugh that kinda makes my body cringe. I like u Ally as a smasher but that shows alot of weakness. Why would u not train for the biggest tourney of the year in the world.

That is either alot of cockyness or foolishness.
Unless u had some health issues and couldn't then I would understand.

In anything in life you should always prepare.
I'm salty about dubs cuz I tried to train with Fow but he refused. Even friday he wouldn't practice and look what happened. Was so frustrating. I wanted to teach him team spacing but he acted like he knew everything but when it came time to play his was off.

Anyways always do yer best to prepare for everything in life.

 

[kailo34ce]

. I wanted to teach him team spacing

dude come on. he was havin a bad day dont bust up your buddy

 

[Djent]

Dark.Pch, Volt_Storm_7, and Juushichi collectively won the thread.

 

[Elessar]

I agree with you Seibrik wholeheartedly. The stage shouldn't be a factor to be considered, as in, a hazard to be avoided. And you can train to dodge them, but only up to a point. again, that's why PS2 and Pictochat are banned, right? You could also train and learn on how to avoid or maximize pictochat hazards (I used to abuse them), but all in all, random cannot be a major factor in deciding the outcome of a match.

 

[Dooms]

Juushichi is right alll the way.

Good job Juu.

 

[Mekos]

dude come on. he was havin a bad day dont bust up your buddy

Nah...I had been trying to train for months. We both play wifi. I got ignored mostly. Salty as crap and will never make that mistake again.
Some players are just cocky for no reason. We all should practice. Kobe bryant freakin practices. He wasn't having a bad day. He money matched with Mjg instead of practiced.
I wanted to win apex doubles not only for honor but to help pay for my college fees

The main point is no one should be that cocky to not practice. The greats in all things in this world always prepare/practice before an event.

 

[Ruuku]

The thing people need to understand is on a competative level, there shouldn't be things on the stages to avoid in the first place, except for the person your competing against.

The funny thing is that back in the day at FIU I used to say that all the time and most people including you would say the opposite.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Much like rulesets, i too have matured and changed.

 

[Mekos]

That is awesome Siebrik. We all have to keep growing in life. To stay stagnant is to be dead imo.

 

[Browny]

Kneejerk reactions only brought about because japan beat you, does NOT count as 'maturing'.

 

[WindMajor]

Guys, so many people are going "this is why we aren't as good as the japanese!" "the japanese said ___" that they don't actually LISTEN to the Japanese players, lol.

Japanese players have even come out and said essentially that they (a don't consider themselves a much higher level comparing [or even that they're better at all], (b that already there is a large collection of players IN the US that can match the collection of their smaller collection of top players and (c that we should be PLAYING THE ****ING GAME and improving overall.

We're doing something right already. Refine your technique. Practice before tournaments. Study your opponents. If you want to keep squawking "that's what the Japanese did!" then those three things are exactly what the Japanese players have done.

We out.

This.

It's been said a million times in the thread, but the first thing we look at when we say "we should get better" isn't the ruleset. We don't need to change the ruleset for anything, we just need to practice more. There are a lot of things we can learn from the Japanese, since they play differently than we do. We should try to understand how they play and implement it to our game. We shouldn't change our stage list because Japan's list is different and they're "better". If we ban all those stages, we won't immediately learn how to be as good as the Japanese.

That's because changing the stage list to get better is the most indirect way of getting better ever. Not only that, but it doesn't even make sense to think that we'll get better by restricting ourselves even more. If you want to focus on character vs. character play, then by all means do it. You don't need to change the ruleset at all to practice and get better. If you want to practice, you can practice on your own or with others outside of tournament sets in those three stages. You can also analyze footage, read up information on Smashboards, and hang around in Practice Mode on your Wii if you want to get better.

It's cool that you think that you can focus on your fundamentals in FD/SV/BF where there is little interference, but it makes no sense to ban Frigate because you want to get better at other parts of the game.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Thats fine but explain to me how a stage flipping mid fight is "competative" and not interfering at all with the outcome of any match on that stage ever?


Explain please.

 

[SmashChu]

I'll take a page from starcraft to say why the Japanese won (haven't seen anything, so I'm going on the assumption they won and what the OP said).

In Starcraft 2, you can probably get your way to Diamond or Master's leauge by doing "gay," strats. You can 6pool and Cannon Proxy your way to the top. What happens sometimes is these players will do it, get to high levels and then fall back down as the Diamond and Masters players can already beat it. Likewise, before the change to Warp gate research, 4 Gate was very powerful. People got to Diamond just on 4Gate. Eventually, Blizzard changed the research time and 4Gate became weaker. The players who used that to climb the ranks fell down to Gold and Platinum.

What I'm getting at is that these players never learned how to get good, they learned how to win. The Japanese learned how to get good, so they we able to easily win. They probably just played better. The problem is that the US players learned how to 4Gate. But the Japanese mastered the game.

Changing the stages would do nothing. You can still do "gay" things on all of them. The way to win is get better at the game. The gay things will fail because the Japanese played them, beat them, and they are on to the next level.

 

[Mekos]

^^^^^ on the money. I love it.

except for the last part lol. Some stages have specific gay things that can be done on them and are abused.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

And i believe the best way to get better at mastering the fundementals of the game is to play on only the stages where the only things being tested ARE your fundementals.

 

[WindMajor]

Thats fine but explain to me how a stage flipping mid fight is "competative" and not interfering at all with the outcome of any match on that stage ever?


Explain please.

The same way that Smashville is "competitive" with it's moving platform that interferes with the outcome of the match.

Knowing your terrain is just as important as knowing your opponent. You should be planning your strategy around the terrain, because whether or not your terrain is static or dynamic, it affects the outcome of the match. This applies to Final Destination as much as it applies to Frigate, Norfair, and Distant Planet.

 

[infiniteV115]

Seibrik, how do you define 'interfering' with the outcome of a match?

 

[Zankoku]

And i believe the best way to get better at mastering the fundementals of the game is to play on only the stages where the only things being tested ARE your fundementals.

Unless people are dedicating a chunk of time to playing on stages like Brinstar in friendlies, I believe you are implying that players should work on improving and mastering mechanics mid-tournament. I disagree, a tournament is about testing and proving your game knowledge and how mechanically sound your play is. A tournament stage-list should not have a gigantic impact on how you choose to spend your time practicing.

 

[Elessar]

I used to play SC2 heavily so I got everything you said, and it's completely true. You can learn how to win, or how to be good. But, sadly, stage gimmicks come into play for "learning to win", not "learning to be good". When, in the case of Brinsar as to not pick on FO only, 97% of the stage becomes inaccessible due to the lava/acid rising, that's interfering int he gameplay itself, and it can turn around the outcome. That should not happen at a competitive level. I'm not saying the stage list should be cut down to just 2 or 3, but it needs to be revised because right now, due to stage gimmicks, a lot of people learnt how to win, not how to get good.

Also, again, cultural differences, differences in mindset, you cannot outrule them all and claim it was only because of the stages. Did it factor in, most surely, but it was definitively not the only factor.

Finally, the japanese are good, but not miles ahead. You guys just got outplayed, not wrecked.