The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[da K.I.D.]

It proves what, exactly?

that M2k keeps certain techniques to himself because he doesnt want them to steal his moves, and he knows how broken MK is and doesnt want his full potential known to the masses, so that he cna continue winning with him

 

[Cirno]

They are and they have. Because of the amount of BS threads like these have, most people stay out of them. They've tired and stopped coming here. This has been around Smashboards for quite some time now.

Most people on "my" side have tired and left, thus so many on "your" side (I replied to this separately because it was edited into your post after I'd already replied to it).

Lol.

I love how before you even saw my post, you said the exact same thing.

 

[Yuna]

than you dont mind if i jack your style somewhat. and youre still ignoring parts of posts

1) Why should I have to Google up two specific match-up charts to prove things that are given facts for anyone who plays the games? You do it. It requires way too much time for me to do. I will if someone else demands me to since it'll randomly be much more relevant then.
2) But we've already told you several times why you cannot use it. Don't pretend that you've missed us every single time. Or if you did, stop doing it in the future.
3) Irrelevant. You said you'd stop replying with colored text in my own quotes when I turned down my tone. I already did, you haven't stopped.

Next time, I will stick to my promise and not even read your posts.

 

[Yuna]

that M2k keeps certain techniques to himself because he doesnt want them to steal his moves, and he knows how broken MK is and doesnt want his full potential known to the masses, so that he cna continue winning with him

Quote him exactly where he says things that prove this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

that M2k keeps certain techniques to himself because he doesnt want them to steal his moves, and he knows how broken MK is and doesnt want his full potential known to the masses, so that he cna continue winning with him

That's slanderous. M2K won't be affected by the MK ban

 

[brinboy789]

that M2k keeps certain techniques to himself because he doesnt want them to steal his moves, and he knows how broken MK is and doesnt want his full potential known to the masses, so that he cna continue winning with him

if you read more of M2K's post, he reveals even more on how he beats G&W's. why would he do that if what you said above is true. and stop typing in huge letters its annoying to read

 

[TeeVee]

check the matchup thread. the NEW one. i dont remember all of them, but one is definitely yoshi

This matchup has not been proven yet at the top level...

 

[S.B.Soldier]

Unless you are M2k Himself, how would you be special enough to know his secret techniques? That's like saying that I know KDJ's secret techniques because I'm good friends with him, which is NOT true. Plus, the applicability of one person using metaknight makes no difference when deciding a ban that the entire smash community will have to adhere to. Think this way... people like M2K and KDJ and Ken, they are on a level where anything is possible. It a 40% chance of success is more than enough for many people. Yes metaknight is broken, but that doesn't meant that everyone who picks up the controller and uses him will win a tourney. Metaknight shouldn't be banned, but rather looked onto as a challenge to overcome. Marth, Toon Link, and many other characters can be used to win against good metaknights. Just remember that a 40% chance of winning occurs more often than not anyways in an array of different matchups.

 

[Cirno]

that M2k keeps certain techniques to himself because he doesnt want them to steal his moves,

So?

Said before, I know, but why reveal your trump card before you play?


That's like showing everyone your hand in a game of poker.

and he knows how broken MK is and doesnt want his full potential known to the masses, so that he can continue winning with him

At the moment broken is more opinion than anything.
As for the rest of that statement, again, so?


If he doesn't want everyone to know a certain technique he is aware of it, that's natural in a competitive scene, but if he uses it to win as you suggest, recorded match or not it will be known.

 

[infomon]

What is the justification for the close matchup between MK and Yoshi? Has there ever been any real high-level demonstration of this, or is it just theoretical? (Not that that's bad per sé... just wondering.)

Also, as for the game where (if I read correctly?) Yun has a 60:40 matchup at worst against the rest of the cast, and he's not banned. Why? How is this justified in these other games? Why has the competitive scene not just devolved into dittos, when that character's matchups are so favourable?

Just curious.

 

[brinboy789]

This matchup has not been proven yet at the top level...

that is the new matchup chart, and is generally the accepted one. there is an old outdated one if you want, but yea, its kinda OUTDATED. the new one specifically says theres 4 neutral MK matchups. and its not even fully filled for MK.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

I've said all of this already. Some of it twice. da K.I.D. apparently found it faulty reasoning, illogical or whatever and that his logic stands.

 

[brinboy789]

What is the justification for the close matchup between MK and Yoshi? Has there ever been any real high-level demonstration of this, or is it just theoretical? (Not that that's bad per sé... just wondering.)

Also, as for the game where (if I read correctly?) Yun has a 60:40 matchup at worst against the rest of the cast, and he's not banned. Why? How is this justified in these other games? Why has the competitive scene not just devolved into dittos, when that character's matchups are so favourable?

Just curious.

i has no idea. ask the people on the matchup chart. thats just what i saw.

soz for double post

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

I've said all of this already. Some of it twice. da K.I.D. apparently found it faulty reasoning, illogical or whatever and that his logic stands.

What is the justification for the close matchup between MK and Yoshi? Has there ever been any real high-level demonstration of this, or is it just theoretical? (Not that that's bad per sé... just wondering.)

Also, as for the game where (if I read correctly?) Yun has a 60:40 matchup at worst against the rest of the cast, and he's not banned. Why? How is this justified in these other games? Why has the competitive scene not just devolved into dittos, when that character's matchups are so favourable?

Just curious.

Because people aren't tier whores in those scenes. People didn't all flock to Yun and found other characters to be Competitive with. Yun doesn't even win the most tournaments since Chun-Li, while suffering a 40:60 (I think) against Yun is a worse match-up for many characters than Yun is, yet she does better.

A 40:60 is not an automatic loss, not in Brawl, not in any game. People seem to think it is. Funny then how Chun-Lis regularly manage to beat Yuns and win tournaments. In fact, Chun-Li's and Yun not the only characters winning. Others like Ken and Makoto have being able to hold their own despite suffering bad match-ups against both (debatable in Ken's case).

 

[Ace55]

The only reason why most characters who get 40:60ed by Meta Knight aren't doing better is human laziness. People aren't bothering to develop their metagame against Meta Knight. The best either quit or switch characters to characters with better match-ups. That or people just whine and try to get him banned.

Seriously like people have a choice not to train against MK.
When you have trouble with MK there are only a few things you can do:

1. Quit the game (obvious)

2. Use a MK 'counter' (but who?)

3. Use MK (a very popular choice)

4. Get better against MK with character you are using now

5. Whine about banning MK

I would say all the people still not using MK are in group 4. Seeing as MK is such a dominant force they get plenty of MK experience, and the only way to do decently is (try) to develop a effective playstyle against MK. People have been doing this for months, but the results are kinda dissapointing (except for Yoshi I guess).

You can say that we need more time to see if MK is as good as we think, but I don't think you can say people arn't trying.

 

[infomon]

soz for double post

LOL it wasn't a double-post if you're planning on double-posting, why don't you just edit your previous post with the new stuff, rather than posting again?

 

[Cirno]

I've said all of this already. Some of it twice. da K.I.D. apparently found it faulty reasoning, illogical or whatever and that his logic stands.

I know.

That seems to be a unavoidable occurrence when debating on SWF though.
Repeating points that is.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Keep telling yourself that.

you don't.

i'm not even making a comment on your "attractiveness" (as a male, anyway...), i'm just saying, you're very obviously a dude.

i'm still skeptical that that's even actually you. or perhaps skeptical isn't the right word, and it's more like i just don't want to believe...

 

[TeeVee]

that is the new matchup chart, and is generally the accepted one. there is an old outdated one if you want, but yea, its kinda OUTDATED. the new one specifically says theres 4 neutral MK matchups. and its not even fully filled for MK.

Once again, this matchup has not been proven yet at Top level play...

 

[worldjem7]

You said he has the best smashes in the entire game. No amount of backpedaling can save you unless you somehow managed to think "smashes" is singularis. And his Dsmash isn't even the best Dsmash in the game. There are Dsmashes around equally strong that are semi-spikes.

And then you failed to even double check yourself to see to it that you hadn't made a mistake and claimed I've verbally violated you or something.


But it's not the best Dsmash in the game. Yet you claimed it was. You are still wrong.

OK, fine. You're right, I'm wrong. Whatever. This isn't even the main part of what I was trying to say anyway. So, it doesn't really matter.

No it's not. It's a rebuttal to your claim that it beats almost all moves. Anyone who had read your post (which I clearly quoted right above my rebuttal) would've known that I was refuting that claim, not implying that you were ever implied the 'Nado beats all moves in the game.

Well I wrote the post. I used "almost" purposely because I know that it doesn't beat everything. What else would I say to say "it beats a lot of things but, not everything" ?

No I didn't. I replied to every single part of it.

You really didn't. There's the rest of the first quote box and the other 2 on the bottom that you haven't touched yet.

A part of your post claimed the 'Nado beat almost all moves and then went on to describe how good it is.

I replied to this by pointing out how it's not the kind of über-move you and others seem to believe it is. I simoultaneously refuted two of your points; that it beats out almost all moves and that it's really, really, really good.

This is all you talked about.

And I still managed to address everything else in your post.


Because your main argument was the tornado. I still managed to reply to everything else.

No, it wasn't. You see a small blurb about the tornado and you think it's the main argument? That's why I told you to read carefully.

My argument is Brawl as a competitive fighting game. In normal fighting games there is a certain balance that they usually adhere to. Brawl is not that kind of game. It's more reliant on what character you have. The better the character you play, the better you'll do vs opponents. Skill does factor in but, the amount of weight the character selection has in determining who wins is just so big that it's ridiculous. Because Brawl is such a character-dependent game Meta Knight will always be the best and will always win more tourneys than any other character. People know this or end up realizing it which can make them turn to MK creating more MK players and less variety in tournaments which would ultimately lead to MK-only tournaments and that's what we'd like to prevent in any fighting game: the dominance of only one character, over all others, to be viable for tournament play.

If you actually read my post you would have seen this. I explain further in that post.

Because you didn't own up to it.

I just admitted that I made a mistake. What do you want from me?

 

[Yuna]

Seriously like people have a choice not to train against MK.
When you have trouble with MK there are only a few things you can do:

I would say all the people still not using MK are in group 4. Seeing as MK is such a dominant force they get plenty of MK experience, and the only way to do decently is (try) to develop a effective playstyle against MK. People have been doing this for months, but the results are kinda dissapointing (except for Yoshi I guess).

You can say that we need more time to see if MK is as good as we think, but I don't think you can say people arn't trying.

The thing that mostly people don't even bother. They don't try their best when they go up against MKs, they don't try to figure out new ways to beat him, they don't try to keep up on the latest of how to fight MKs the best as their respective characters. They just give up mentally and don't really try.

And that's not to mention that the majority of people on Smashboards do not play on the highest level. What highest level G&W can do is not the same as lower level G&Ws. Thus, when lower level players feel like they cannot win against Meta Knight, the same is not true for higher level players who can handle him much better thanks to experience and trial and knowledge.

I know.

That seems to be a unavoidable occurrence when debating on SWF though.
Repeating points that is.

Repeating the same points is not that bad. Repeating the same points to the same people is.

 

[brinboy789]

Seriously like people have a choice not to train against MK.
When you have trouble with MK there are only a few things you can do:

1. Quit the game (obvious)

2. Use a MK 'counter' (but who?)

3. Use MK (a very popular choice)

4. Get better against MK with character you are using now

5. Whine about banning MK

I would say all the people still not using MK are in group 4. Seeing as MK is such a dominant force they get plenty of MK experience, and the only way to do decently is (try) to develop a effective playstyle against MK. People have been doing this for months, but the results are kinda dissapointing (except for Yoshi I guess).

You can say that we need more time to see if MK is as good as we think, but I don't think you can say people arn't trying.

4 is the way of a REAL man...or smasher
1 i dont think much people are doing because of MK...
2 4 neutral chars with MK
3 not that popular... people switch mains all the time
5 scrubs ftl

LOL it wasn't a double-post if you're planning on double-posting, why don't you just edit your previous post with the new stuff, rather than posting again?

oo never thought of that lol. double post cause i didnt think anybody would post that quickly lol

 

[Nestec]

Metaknight shouldn't be banned until every tournament boils down to Metaknight dittos in the Top 10 or whatever...

And that happening only depends on us players and how we handle MK's reign. We can say "Oh, it's hopeless, let's just be MK to win." or we can say "Let's keep on fighting and winning tournaments with other characters."

If MK was the "too-good" that the pro-banners are saying, no other character would ever win a tournament. We see Lucarios and GWs and Warios winning tournies because it is possible to beat a skilled MK. Thus, he is not "broken" and shouldn't be banned. >__<

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wonder: would you want Captain Falcon banned, if he was as good as MK?

 

[infomon]

Because people aren't tier whores in those scenes.

I don't understand this "tier *****" thing. Why dis someone for playing to win? Even though most people who switch to MK are far far below "high-level play" calibre and so are just limiting themselves when other high-tiers might be just as easy for them to win with at their level.... but who am I to criticize their decision? If MK has the best odds, we should expect everyone to switch their main, although maybe practice other characters just to hard-counter people that aren't MK.

A 40:60 is not an automatic loss, not in Brawl, not in any game. People seem to think it is.

I agree, and have argued the same a bunch in this thread. But 40:60 sounds like enough that if people aren't picking that character, then either they're artificially limiting themselves, or they're challenging the notion that their competitors are playing at the highest level of play. Or challenging the matchup numbers :o

 

[Master Raven]

I bet most people in this topic would all flock to Yun if they decided to start playing SF3.

BTW the reason M2K does not like people recording him is because he gets nervous when it happens and thus plays worse, and I can understand so, because I've been through that situation before and it DOES screw up my game.

 

[Mith_]

Man I'm glad nobody in my area uses meta knight.
Nobody knows how good he is except me and I don't even use him because idk.
Continue your debating please.

 

[aeghrur]

Who're the 4 neutral with MK?
DK(close enough, 55:45 right?)
Diddy(only on Final D right?)
Yoshi(WOOOOOOOT)
G&W(maybe... unless you are good with M2K's method)

Right?

 

[brinboy789]

I bet most people in this topic would all flock to Yun if they decided to start playing SF3.

BTW the reason M2K does not like people recording him is because he gets nervous when it happens and thus plays worse, and I can understand so, because I've been through that situation before and it DOES screw up my game.

if i were to play SF3 (which will never happen), then i would thouroughly test everybody out before picking my main...and if it is yun, then so be it. i ilke metaknight because of his badassness and his playstyle, not because hes toptier

 

[ShadowLink84]

no there aren't 4 neutrals since they are very well arguable.

Dk is probably 60:40 MK.
He combos DK really easily and can space Dk very well.
Diddy is only on FD but that is also arguable as well.
Yoshi... I hope so

G&W. No.

 

[Ace55]

And that's not to mention that the majority of people on Smashboards do not play on the highest level. What highest level G&W can do is not the same as lower level G&Ws. Thus, when lower level players feel like they cannot win against Meta Knight, the same is not true for higher level players who can handle him much better thanks to experience and trial and knowledge.

Sadly enough that makes a lot of sense, with MK being the easiest to pick up and such. I give up.

So what your basically saying is that MK might me totally dominant in low/mid level play, but when you get to the highest level the gap is 'perhaps' less?

 

[brinboy789]

Who're the 4 neutral with MK?
DK(close enough, 55:45 right?)
Diddy(only on Final D right?)
Yoshi(WOOOOOOOT)
G&W(maybe... unless you are good with M2K's method)

Right?

game and watch
diddy kong
kirby
yoshi

dont ask me for the reasons i do not know why they are even.

EDIT: forgot to mention, snake and donkey kong arent even mantioned yet so maybe even more neutrals

 

[Yuna]

Just to further show how da K.I.D. has a habit of ignoring valid arguments or conveniently "forgetting" them whenever he feels like it, here's a little history lesson:

10-08-2008, 07:22 PM you can ask azen himself, Lee played MK in a way that Azen was forced to play MK to have a shot at winning, and he played Luc the first two games and lost, and than he switched to MK and beat him 3 times straight, lee even says that he wouldnt have even had a chance had he (lee) not been playing MK to begin with

10-08-2008, 07:28 PM We did ask Azen himself. No wait, we didn't ask, Azen just randomly came into this thread and flat out told us himself.

Azen specifically said that Lee was the only Meta Knight against whom he did better as Meta Knight than as Lucario. You hear me? Not Dojo, not Mew2King, both of those, he did better against as Lucario! He went Peach, Ike and a bunch of other characters at HOBO11. He played a whole bunch of people.

Lee was the only Meta Knight against whom he did better as Meta Knight than Lucario. Do I have to repeat myself for this to sink in?!

And that's not to mention that he didn't even lose by that much as Lucario! You people are whining about it as if he lost by huge margins. "Oh, Azen was forced to go Meta Knight!" O RLY? He lost the 1st match with both players with one stock. He lost the 2nd with Lee with 1 stock and high percentages.

Then he beat Lee and went on to play Mew2King... and he didn't fare better as Meta Knight against Mew2King than as Lucario (or that's inferred, anyway. Either he just did play Meta Knight against Mew2King or he did and he did worse than as Lucario, but I think he did go MK and did worse)!

10-08-2008, 07:51 PM you do realise that i said the same thing you just described yuna...

when he played lee, azen was forced to use MK. what about that is wrong?

(blah blah)

This is clearly a response to the post quoted above this one, showing us that he clearly read it.

Today, 09:50 PM ken supposedly went even with him, thus the no ban, nobody goes even with MK and we have the added bonus of 3 of the top 3 and 5 of the top 8 at our biggest tourney playing him. thus the ban. i dont think yun had those kind of numbers behind him, and if he did, I WANT MULTIPLE SOURCES

26 hours can make a man forget a lot of things, can't they?

The excuse?

all i know is that he played mk in an important match thats why lucario/MK was next to his name in the results thread

A blatant lie. He knows a lot more than that.

Thinking of taking da K.I.D.'s accusations against me at face value? Thinking of crediting him with credibility? Think again.

This has been a History Lesson brought to you by Yuna, future English Professor of Doom.

 

[DanGR]

game and watch
diddy kong
kirby
yoshi

dont ask me for the reasons i do not know why they are even.

If you're refering to my chart, (which will make me happy if you are, :D) then look at the second post in the thread. In my next update, I'm taking off MK v Gaw, Diddy, and Kirby. Both boards have agreed to MK v Yoshi as neutral though. That will stand.

 

[Kappie]

Lucario pretty even, but I guess 55-45 or 60-40 mk still.

 

[TeeVee]

game and watch
diddy kong
kirby
yoshi

dont ask me for the reasons i do not know why they are even.

game and watch - New play style proves otherwise, was this ever conisdered even anyway?
Diddy - On Fd maybe
Kirby - lol
Yoshi - still hasnt been proved yet

 

[brinboy789]

If you're refering to my chart, (which will make me happy if you are, :D) then look at the second post in the thread. In my next update, I'm taking off MK v Gaw, Diddy, and Kirby. Both boards have agreed to MK v Yoshi as neutral though. That will stand.

yea your chart. what about snake and DK though? shouldnt they be neutral?

EDIT: just wondering, how come nothign on snake is filled in and barely only 1 for samus? lol jw

 

[Jack Kieser]

So much has been said on the topic of matchup numbers and such that I thought I'd ask this, mainly because no one seems to care about arguing the meaning of 'too good', which is really one of the few things left to argue at this point.

So, matchup numbers are supposed to be based on a number of things, right? Actual tournament data, strategies, theory fighter, etc. These matchups are supposed to be at the highest level of play currently attainable. Here's the thing, though: these ratings are mainly based on info hosted and available here on SWF. If someone, anyone, has anything on Meta that can reliably counter him enough to give a 'reasonable chance' to win, wouldn't people be using these strats/techs? And wouldn't Meta be doing worse than he is? Isn't it possible (very, I think) that our matchup numbers are simply... wrong? That Meta does (as of now) have a more pronounced advantage over the rest of the cast as we think? After all, Hylian's 'MK v G&W' thread (I think that was his thread, right? I'm kind of tired... lol) shows how to completely shut out one of Meta's supposed close matches. Completely shut out, as in no chance of winning. (In theory, anyway)

I guess the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is, isn't it very possible that the character boards, in an attempt to try to give themselves 'more of a chance', have argued closer matchups than actual tournament data would suggest?

 

[da K.I.D.]

this quote to anwser a quote to answer a quote to answer somebody elses quote thing is just confusing me, so im just goinng to start at the beginning.
i believe MK should be banned because he is taking too many tourney wins and choking and centralizing the meta game.
I believe he is popular BECAUSE he is overpowered and broken. not the other way around.
when i see a large tourney final that doesnt have Mk in it, i may change my opinion, but when i heard that the last 30 minutes of those tourney finals were MK dittos, regardless of what happened before that point, i was convinced.
we need a set basis of ban criteria
and i would like to humbly ask Azen to officially switch mains to Mk because that seems to be about half of the argument against the ban

also, dk gets tornado *****
diddy, can only compete on FD
yoshis CG do not do enough to make it equal
and GaW, lol, read the thread i posted

 

[Vulcan55]

Well technically anyone could write a thread on how to beat any character with any other character, but that doesn't automatically mean that said character now destroys said opposing character.

we need a set basis of ban criteria

When the game becomes "Play Metaknight or lose".
Unless you can convince me that this needs to be changed, all it seems like is a scrub desperately trying to get him banned ASAP.

and i would like to humbly ask Azen to officially switch mains to Mk because that seems to be about half of the argument against the ban

>.>
Not really.