The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Yuna]

Well I wrote the post. I used "almost" purposely because I know that it doesn't beat everything. What else would I say to say "it beats a lot of things but, not everything" ?

Anything but "almost" as "almost" means "almost" and not just "a lot of things"!

You really didn't. There's the rest of the first quote box and the other 2 on the bottom that you haven't touched yet.

I'm too lazy to go back to re-reply to what I think I've already replied to. Quote yourself and I'll see what I can do. This is because I can't see what it is you think I didn't reply to.

This is all you talked about.

Looking back, I didn't talk about much. Then I elaborated. I didn't address everything you that in that other thread, I just addressed most of the things you actually quoted here.

Lift out what you want me to address and I will. I've already addressed almost all of it before and I just didn't feel like repeating myself just because you were new and had recetnyl jumped in.

My argument is Brawl as a competitive fighting game. In normal fighting games there is a certain balance that they usually adhere to. Brawl is not that kind of game. It's more reliant on what character you have. The better the character you play, the better you'll do vs opponents. Skill does factor in but, the amount of weight the character selection has in determining who wins is just so big that it's ridiculous. Because Brawl is such a character-dependent game Meta Knight will always be the best and will always win more tourneys than any other character. People know this or end up realizing it which can make them turn to MK creating more MK players and less variety in tournaments which would ultimately lead to MK-only tournaments and that's what we'd like to prevent in any fighting game: the dominance of only one character, over all others, to be viable for tournament play.

You bring forth nothing to support this claim of yours. What makes Brawl so special? Specifically asked you this and you replied with something else entirely (believe your reply actually had a lot to do with Meta Knight's Tornado).

I just admitted that I made a mistake. What do you want from me?

Recognizing that my BS isn't just BS? It's me pointing out flaws? Admitting you were wrong is not enough if you accused someone (innocent) of wrongdoing for it first.

What you say here ^^^ has nothing to do with what you quoted. I was asking you a question. Are you going to answer it?

I'm too lazy to go back. Too many multi-quotes and whatnot. The thread is moving too fast. Throw it in with the rest you think I should take a look at. I swear to give your new post my undivided attention and reply to each and every sentence of it.

i'm not even making a comment on your "attractiveness" (as a male, anyway...), i'm just saying, you're very obviously a dude.

I'm not even trying to look like a girl. That's just me with a cosplay on. If I put make-up on and do my hair up, trust me...

i'm still skeptical that that's even actually you. or perhaps skeptical isn't the right word, and it's more like i just don't want to believe...

Why? According to you, I don't look like a girl, so why should it matter? And yes, it is me.

Why the sweating smiley?

Sadly enough that makes a lot of sense, with MK being the easiest to pick up and such. I give up.

So what your basically saying is that MK might me totally dominant in low/mid level play, but when you get to the highest level the gap is 'perhaps' less?

In short, yes.

I don't understand this "tier *****" thing. Why dis someone for playing to win?

It's just a name. Should I have gone with "People who always go for the best character in the game no matter what"? It was easier to write down a one-word term.

I agree, and have argued the same a bunch in this thread. But 40:60 sounds like enough that if people aren't picking that character, then either they're artificially limiting themselves, or they're challenging the notion that their competitors are playing at the highest level of play. Or challenging the matchup numbers :o

Most of them are just giving up 'cause they think 40:60 are some kind of really bad odds.

Old stuff.

* The best players flock to Meta Knight
* Meta Knight is the best character in the game
* Meta Knight has statistically the highest chances of winning
* Best character + Best people = Stellar results
* Why aren't Snakes doing better against Meta despite suffering only 45:55? Because there just aren't enough good Snakes out there compared to the hoardes of Metas.
* Meta is not destroying Snakes, though, since he's still winning by a small enough margin that people still agree on that Snake enjoys a 45:55 against Meta.
* Meta isn't even destroying the competition. In the rankings, yes, in actual tournaments matches? No. The matches aren't constant 2-stockings! People at the highest possible level actually manage to get Metas down to the lowest stock and high percentages when they lose and sometimes even win.

This what people often make their first mistake: They look at the rankings, see Meta Knight winning by a lot and go "He must be so much better than everyone else and no one stands a reasonable chance at beating him" when that's not true. Meta Knight is winning by a small margin a lot of the time.

Why? Because there are so many Metas out there.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Just to further show how da K.I.D. has a habit of ignoring valid arguments or conveniently "forgetting" them whenever he feels like it, here's a little history lesson:





This is clearly a response to the post quoted above this one, showing us that he clearly read it.


26 hours can make a man forget a lot of things, can't they?

The excuse?


A blatant lie. He knows a lot more than that.

Thinking of taking da K.I.D.'s accusations against me at face value? Thinking of crediting him with credibility? Think again.

This has been a History Lesson brought to you by Yuna, future English Professor of Doom.

what was that supposed to prove?

 

[infomon]

Well technically anyone could write a thread on how to beat any character with any other character, but that doesn't automatically mean that said character now destroys said opposing character.

^^ this. Hylian demonstrates M2K's method of shutting down a couple of G&W's options in a match, but that was what, yesterday?? Why is everyone here so sure that G&W's can't take some time to reorganize the way they approach MK and take this into account... who knows, they might start easily baiting MK's into using up-B carelessly and then punishing...... mindgaaaamez...... and bring the matchup back down to even-ish. *shrug*

 

[brinboy789]

this quote to anwser a quote to answer a quote to answer somebody elses quote thing is just confusing me, so im just goinng to start at the beginning.
i believe MK should be banned because he is taking too many tourney wins and choking and centralizing the meta game.
I believe he is popular BECAUSE he is overpowered and broken. not the other way around.
when i see a large tourney final that doesnt have Mk in it, i may change my opinion, but when i heard that the last 30 minutes of those tourney finals were MK dittos, regardless of what happened before that point, i was convinced.
we need a set basis of ban criteria
and i would like to humbly ask Azen to officially switch mains to Mk because that seems to be about half of the argument against the ban

also, dk gets tornado *****
diddy, can only compete on FD
yoshis CG do not do enough to make it equal
and GaW, lol, read the thread i posted

about tourneys: read yunas new response
about azen: he mains lucario, and thats that. well i think he does

and about the matchup chart - hey, i didnt make it. and the maker thinks that all cept yoshi are wrong, but snake and DK are still probably neutral.

MK gets bair *****. bair outranges any of his attacks INCLUDING THE EPIC TORNADO OF DOOM

 

[ShadowLink84]

The issue is that he's shuttle looping right before G&w lands the Bair so he cannot avoid it.
if he tries to bait with a Bair he'll still get hit because the Bair stays out so long.

Oh and brinstar bair does not **** MK.
There is no such thing as a move that completely destroys a character.
G&W has a nasty Bair but unlike DDD and DK, it stays out a long amount of time. Its a committed attack and it isn't hard to avoid if you're MK.

 

[TeeVee]

^^ this. Hylian demonstrates M2K's method of shutting down a couple of G&W's options in a match, but that was what, yesterday?? Why is everyone here so sure that G&W's can't take some time to reorganize the way they approach MK and take this into account... who knows, they might start easily baiting MK's into using up-B carelessly and then punishing...... mindgaaaamez...... and bring the matchup back down to even-ish. *shrug*

Once you find a realiable way to punish mk's up b, come see me....

 

[ShadowLink84]

Drop a spring on him.

 

[brinboy789]

Once you find a realiable way to punish mk's up b, come see me....

once you find a reliable way to punish snakes ftilt and utilt, come see me...

 

[infomon]

It limits MK's options, his glide attack is large and disjointed but has weak priority so it would lose to a well-placed turtle or Dair, and if you can get behind MK then he doesn't have many options; he has to land, and he's defenseless as he falls if he does the glide attack if it's high up enough. Obviously pro players will work around this, but it's not as if there's no way that a G&W can use the situation to his advantage. Also, I meant he should bait the up-B by convincing the MK you're going to use the turtle, but don't. It's a trap... like Yuna

 

[Yuna]

this quote to anwser a quote to answer a quote to answer somebody elses quote thing is just confusing me, so im just goinng to start at the beginning.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5539242&postcount=3673

Read it. It completely annihilates your credibility (yet again).

Look deeper. Look at what I just said.

You didn't even bother to remember what Azen himself said about Hobo11.

Why? He says so himself: He does worse as Meta than as Lucario most of the time.

This was brought up yesterday. You think the match-up is now set in stone, that the G&W can't learn to go around this? I mean, which this logic, no character has any aerial approaches on MK since he can just Up B them all. Heck, Marth should be able to do it, he's invincible as well during Up B!

The rest is apparently new to the G&W community. No one else (or very few) knew this before, so no one was actively looking for ways around it. Give it time. It there's no way around it, then we'll drop G&W from the "People who can reasonably beat G&W".

what was that supposed to prove?

That you have no credibility? You brought up Hobo11, Azen had already come into the thread and explained why you cannot bring his MK up as evidence of why MK needs to be banned, I repeated said info to you, you read it and misconstrued it, I set the record straight (not quoted), then, 26 hours later, you proceed to bring up the same refuted argument again.

When I tell you to stop doing it, that Azen already proved you wrong, you claim that "all you saw was" the tourney results with the implied meaning that you thus are not to blame for bringing them up though they had previously been (repeteadly) refuted as evidence in this trial... despite having partaked in the relevant information before.

Thus, you're either very forgetful or lying through your teeth. Thus, you have no credibility, be because you'll just forget whenever you get refuted or because you just lie.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Once you find a realiable way to punish mk's up b, come see me....

you have to powershield it on the ground and hit him before he rotates 360 degrees, which is highly difficult and nobody that ive seen can do it on command

 

[ThaRoy]

once you find a reliable way to punish snakes ftilt and utilt, come see me...

...Shield...

 

[Vulcan55]

Once you find a realiable way to punish mk's up b, come see me....

U-air.
keeps MK not in control.

 

[brinboy789]

...Shield...

lol shield blocks everythign but grabs...

and did he seriously say

theres obviously going to be every single char (well at least top+high tier) in every single tourney. duh. its the way of smash

 

[DanGR]

yea your chart. what about snake and DK though? shouldnt they be neutral?

EDIT: just wondering, how come nothign on snake is filled in and barely only 1 for samus? lol jw

idk. go to their matchup threads. I'm not the all-knowing chart creator. I just run it. lol.

The Snake boards don't have any sort of decent matchup thread that I could use. If they did, I'd include him in the chart. Look at the links at the bottom of the first post of the thread. Go to Samus. *click* Now look at their best matchup thread. They've only got one matchup filled in!

@Jack Kieser-

I personally don't see a reason to argue that my characters have 'more of a chance' against MK. In my Olimar matchup thread, I put the matchup as 40-60 MK, even though people were telling me it's even. That's just bull. I'd rather have the people going into my thread in need of advice come out knowing why they lose to MK so often- because he's just good, and they've got a disadvantage against him.

 

[ThaRoy]

lol shield blocks everythign but grabs...

Ok...so I found you a reliable way to stop Snake's ftilt and utilt...

...that was simple...

...what did your point...prove...? Why did you...ask...

That question...?

 

[brinboy789]

Ok...so I found you a reliable way to stop Snake's ftilt and utilt...

...that was simple...

...what did your point...prove...? Why did you...ask...

That question...?

then is shield your answer to MK's shuttle loop? i asked that question because someone else asked how to stop shuttle loop.

btw, WAY too much dots in previous smg

 

[ThaRoy]

then is shield your answer to MK's shuttle loop? i asked that question because someone else asked how to stop shuttle loop.

btw, WAY too much dots in previous smg

...Shuttle Loop does more pressure then Snake's tilts against the shield...

Go ahead...try it if you wish =D

 

[brinboy789]

...Shuttle Loop does more pressure then Snake's tilts against the shield...

Go ahead...try it if you wish =D

warlock punch has more pressure against the shield too >.<

besides, MK should not actually use shuttle loop on the ground. it takes a crapload of damage just to send them somewhere, while an aerial shuttle loop sends them at a...more preferrable angle which is harder for them to recover.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ppl should stop using my account...lolkevinpeck

 

[Jack Kieser]

* The best players flock to Meta Knight
* Meta Knight is the best character in the game
* Meta Knight has statistically the highest chances of winning
* Best character + Best people = Stellar results
* Why aren't Snakes doing better against Meta despite suffering only 45:55? Because there just aren't enough good Snakes out there compared to the hoardes of Metas.
* Meta is not destroying Snakes, though, since he's still winning by a small enough margin that people still agree on that Snake enjoys a 45:55 against Meta.
* Meta isn't even destroying the competition. In the rankings, yes, in actual tournaments matches? No. The matches aren't constant 2-stockings! People at the highest possible level actually manage to get Metas down to the lowest stock and high percentages when they lose and sometimes even win.

This what people often make their first mistake: They look at the rankings, see Meta Knight winning by a lot and go "He must be so much better than everyone else and no one stands a reasonable chance at beating him" when that's not true. Meta Knight is winning by a small margin a lot of the time.

Why? Because there are so many Metas out there.

That's exactly the point that some people have been trying to make, though. See, you have one set of ban criteria, if I've been reading your posts correctly: Meta has to directly shut out a vast majority, if not every member, of the cast in order to warrant a ban. Most other people, though, have 2: he shuts out an overwhelming majority of the cast, or he overcentralizes the metagame, shutout or not.

See, many people don't believe he has to Akuma-style 3-stock in every match to be overpowered. If he inches out wins at the highest level, he's still winning. If a win against Meta is just out of reach (statistically speaking), it's still out of reach. At some point, we reach the highest level of play we can, and at the point, math will rule out, and that's (supposedly) where our matchup numbers come from. But if, at the highest level, Meta always wins by 1 stock, he still wins. Add the fact that many people will never even reach the level for that to happen, and Meta becomes even stronger at lower levels (because of his ease of use).

So, yeah. Just some musings. Take it for what you will. I still think we need until at least December before we ban, but I honestly think MK centralizes the game too much.

EDIT @ DanGR: Why not fib on matchups a little? If you are totally truthful and concede that your character has a bad matchup against the King of Brawl, people won't want to play your character and your metagame will weaken. It's ALWAYS in your best interest to over-promote your character. Being realistic does not win you new mainers.

 

[TeeVee]

warlock punch has more pressure against the shield too >.<

besides, MK should not actually use shuttle loop on the ground. it takes a crapload of damage just to send them somewhere, while an aerial shuttle loop sends them at a...more preferrable angle which is harder for them to recover.

Shuttleloop comes out in like a frame, and witht the glide attack there is zero lag after words...

 

[Yuna]

That's exactly the point that some people have been trying to make, though. See, you have one set of ban criteria, if I've been reading your posts correctly: Meta has to directly shut out a vast majority, if not every member, of the cast in order to warrant a ban. Most other people, though, have 2: he shuts out an overwhelming majority of the cast, or he overcentralizes the metagame, shutout or not.

1st criteria: And by most, you must mean "most Smashers who do play on one of the highest levels (i.e., SBR material)". Because we don't know the tally in the SBR and people outside of SWF agree with me, seeing as how Yun, Chun-Li, Eddie and Xianghua were never banned.
2nd criteria: But the problem there is that that means that he has to be banned whether or not he's actually too good. He can be banned merely for overcentralizing the game due to mere popularity. If enough of the good people flock to him, that'll be enough and that just doesn't work and sets a dangerous precedence.

Shuttleloop comes out in like a frame, and witht the glide attack there is zero lag after words...

No, it doesn't. For one thing, he has to first be in the air or jump. If he has to jump first, it takes more than 1 frame. I don't have Meta's frame data, but I'd guess 3 for the startup on Shuttle Loop itself.

 

[brinboy789]

Shuttleloop comes out in like a frame, and witht the glide attack there is zero lag after words...

thats not the point lol. i know shuttle loops is good.

btw, shuttle loop comes out a frame??? i don think so i think it takes longer then a frame...

 

[Yuna]

duhhh im a dork

Is that an actual confession or sarcasm?

In the future, every time you attack my credibility or claim I ignore things or straw man things or forget things, I will bring up this series of event to remind you of how you're the onyx kettle calling the pristine white marble teapot black.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The ^B of Mk's is slower than both marth and sonic's ^b so it doesn't come out in a frame.

 

[Cirno]

If someone, anyone, has anything on Meta that can reliably counter him enough to give a 'reasonable chance' to win, wouldn't people be using these strats/techs? And wouldn't Meta be doing worse than he is?

For the most part certain players are, which is why match ups are still in debate. And Meta is definitely doing worse than what half of opinions suggest. As far as results show, "certain players" is going to have to be a larger number than 10 or even 20 (though I doubt there's even that many) players doing well to change it.It would appear MK's too popular to show accurate results from either at the moment.

Isn't it possible (very, I think) that our matchup numbers are simply... wrong? That Meta does (as of now) have a more pronounced advantage over the rest of the cast as we think?

Very indeed. It's human nature to make mistakes, and our measurement system hasn't even really been defined yet, so our results can all be argued on from the jump.

There is that possibility, but from what we do have to input I would disagree in the sense that I don't think we'd be too far off.

After all, Hylian's 'MK v G&W' thread shows how to completely shut out one of Meta's supposed close matches. Completely shut out, as in no chance of winning. (In theory, anyway)

The thing is that it's in theory only. I'm sure no G&W player is going to agree with the fact any character completely dominates there own, as we all think differently in situations.

I can easily create a similar post for just about any character based on my own play experience and match ups I've seen putting MK on the disadvantage. When going off theory it all comes down to the players.

(I think that was his thread, right? I'm kind of tired... lol)

The only time I see your posts, you're always up at like 2 in the morning debating.
Get some sleep every year or so.

Trust, we'll still be bickering when you get back.

I guess the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is, isn't it very possible that the character boards, in an attempt to try to give themselves 'more of a chance', have argued closer matchups than actual tournament data would suggest?

Again, yes it is possible, but we don't really need possibilities in this type of debate, but facts.

As far as character boards nudging match up numbers in their favor, it would have to be based on play experience(casual and tourney) and a growing understanding of both characters capabilities , unless it's a very illogical/idiotic board (which I haven't seen excluding a couple users here and there).

It doesn't make sense for the Fox boards to say their match up with Pikachu is [90:10 - Fox]
when it isn't true, as it doesn't improve their chances, or anything really besides send unsuspecting players to thier doom or surprise victory (Pikachu player).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psssht.
This time Yuna beat me to saying the same thing.

 

[Koga]

That's exactly the point that some people have been trying to make, though. See, you have one set of ban criteria, if I've been reading your posts correctly: Meta has to directly shut out a vast majority, if not every member, of the cast in order to warrant a ban. Most other people, though, have 2: he shuts out an overwhelming majority of the cast, or he overcentralizes the metagame, shutout or not.

See, many people don't believe he has to Akuma-style 3-stock in every match to be overpowered. If he inches out wins at the highest level, he's still winning. If a win against Meta is just out of reach (statistically speaking), it's still out of reach. At some point, we reach the highest level of play we can, and at the point, math will rule out, and that's (supposedly) where our matchup numbers come from. But if, at the highest level, Meta always wins by 1 stock, he still wins. Add the fact that many people will never even reach the level for that to happen, and Meta becomes even stronger at lower levels (because of his ease of use).

So, yeah. Just some musings. Take it for what you will. I still think we need until at least December before we ban, but I honestly think MK centralizes the game too much.

EDIT @ DanGR: Why not fib on matchups a little? If you are totally truthful and concede that your character has a bad matchup against the King of Brawl, people won't want to play your character and your metagame will weaken. It's ALWAYS in your best interest to over-promote your character. Being realistic does not win you new mainers.

I can aggree that he centralizes the game, the only problem is what if its just temporary? or what if its just cause players are dumb and go for the easy way out?

if you want to argue that he should be banned on his own merits, i have an issue.

but if you say he needs to be banned because we're all lazy and dumb, i might aggree with that.


oh, and how to counter tornado: Ledge stall (be careful though, and make sure to come back up with the invincibility frames when it starts to wind down)

Counter Shuttle loop: Sheild initial hit and roll INTO the loop so that when he comes out of it you're behind him and punish the landing

 

[Master Knight DH]

You should play who you like and win. Not play a character to win. Unless your a super hard core guy. Seriously the game is suppose to be fun.

Swordplay, you couldn't have put it any better if you tried and I don't doubt if you can try very hard.

if i were to play SF3 (which will never happen), then i would thouroughly test everybody out before picking my main...and if it is yun, then so be it. i ilke metaknight because of his badassness and his playstyle, not because hes toptier

Go you. Say. Weren't you the Meta Knight main who posted 20-40 pages back saying you support the ban? If you are, you can rest your case.

 

[Jack Kieser]

1st criteria: And by most, you must mean "most Smashers who do play on one of the highest levels (i.e., SBR material)". Because we don't know the tally in the SBR and people outside of SWF agree with me, seeing as how Yun, Chun-Li, Eddie and Xianghua were never banned.
2nd criteria: But the problem there is that that means that he has to be banned whether or not he's actually too good. He can be banned merely for overcentralizing the game due to mere popularity. If enough of the good people flock to him, that'll be enough and that just doesn't work and sets a dangerous precedence.

First of all, I don't pay attention to other fighting game communities' ban procedures because Smash is so much different than any other fighting game. I'd be naive if I thought what works for them will definitely work for us. So, just because *insert powerful character here* from *insert typical fighting game here* isn't banned, that doesn't mean anything to Smash.

Secondly, that's what the SBR is for. Look, we don't have to listen to them, but very few TO's are brazen enough to go against them. That being said, the SBR is our governmental body, and as such, they are our voice. They, in essence, work for us. They are supposed to do what is best for us. If Meta isn't crazy powerful in an unbeatable sense, but is powerful enough to reduce the game to near-Meta-dittos, then they should do something to preserve the community and the meta game. They are insightful enough to know the difference between 'The community can't deal with this' and 'The communty doesn't want to deal with this'.

 

[Master Raven]

No, it doesn't. For one ting, he has to first be in the air or jump. If he has to jump first, it takes more than 1 frame. I don't have Meta's frame data, but I'd guess 3 for the startup on Shuttle Loop itself.

Shuttle loop can work grounded.

 

[brinboy789]

Swordplay, you couldn't have put it any better if you tried and I don't doubt if you can try very hard.



Go you. Say. Weren't you the Meta Knight main who posted 20-40 pages back saying you support the ban? If you are, you can rest your case.

no....that wasnt me. what kind of ******** MK player would want to ban his own main?

Shuttle loop can work grounded.

it SUCKS grounded

 

[Yuna]

First of all, I don't pay attention to other fighting game communities' ban procedures because Smash is so much different than any other fighting game. I'd be naive if I thought what works for them will definitely work for us. So, just because *insert powerful character here* from *insert typical fighting game here* isn't banned, that doesn't mean anything to Smash.

How is Smash different in such a way that 60:40:ing everyone in Smash is so much worse than 60:40:ing everyone in, say, SF3:3S?

It's a question I've posed many times but never gotten a real answer to.

Secondly, that's what the SBR is for. Look, we don't have to listen to them, but very few TO's are brazen enough to go against them. That being said, the SBR is our governmental body, and as such, they are our voice. They, in essence, work for us. They are supposed to do what is best for us. If Meta isn't crazy powerful in an unbeatable sense, but is powerful enough to reduce the game to near-Meta-dittos, then they should do something to preserve the community and the meta game. They are insightful enough to know the difference between 'The community can't deal with this' and 'The communty doesn't want to deal with this'.

I noticed how none of this has anything to do with the 2 ban criteria you suggested and which I challenged. Why even argue them if you cannot back them up again if you can't substantiate them or at least attempt it (whether you share these beliefs or are merely playing Devil's Advocate. I don't even play Devil's Advocate if I can't back it up).

Shuttle loop can work grounded.

But you have to initiate the jump first, which takes at least 1 frame.

 

[Espy Rose]

2nd criteria: But the problem there is that that means that he has to be banned whether or not he's actually too good. He can be banned merely for overcentralizing the game due to mere popularity. If enough of the good people flock to him, that'll be enough and that just doesn't work and sets a dangerous precedence.

I consider it more of a loop:

"Good enough" = More Meta Knights
More Meta Knights = Quick evolving meta game
Good meta game = more wins
More wins = More popularity
More Popularity = More Meta Knights

Or something to that degree.

Being good enough means more people will play him, which will increase his popularity, which will increase his "good"ness, which will make more people play him, etc, etc, etc.

I too, like Kieser, feel that even though he's not "Too Good", he's "Good Enough" that he's overcentralizing the game.

 

[Yuna]

I consider it more of a loop:

"Good enough" = More Meta Knights
More Meta Knights = Quick evolving meta game
Good meta game = more wins
More wins = More popularity
More Popularity = More Meta Knights

Or something to that degree.

Being good enough means more people will play him, which will increase his popularity, which will increase his "good"ness, which will make more people play him, etc, etc, etc.

I too, like Kieser, feel that even though he's not "Too Good", he's "Good Enough" that he's overcentralizing the game.

Yes, and his game keeps improving 'til he becomes "Good enough", he'll get banned. See, the fact that he's popular is working against him. But if he never reaches that point, no matter how popular, there's no real reason to ban him besides his popularity.

I told you all thise over 100 pages ago!

 

[Jack Kieser]

I can aggree that he centralizes the game, the only problem is what if its just temporary? or what if its just cause players are dumb and go for the easy way out?

if you want to argue that he should be banned on his own merits, i have an issue.

but if you say he needs to be banned because we're all lazy and dumb, i might aggree with that.

Well, if we ascribe to the 'no what-ifs' way of argument, he's overcentralizing now; just read the character boards. Everything that comes up, the first question is, 'Does it work on MK?!' And if history has proven one thing about over-centralization in ANYTHING, it's that it IS a slippery slope. Once it starts, it is VERY hard to slow it down or stop it. At this point, damage is being done; I feel that time will show that our job soon will shift to damage mitigation because of all of this.

 

[Yuna]

Well, if we ascribe to the 'no what-ifs' way of argument, he's overcentralizing now; just read the character boards. Everything that comes up, the first question is, 'Does it work on MK?!' And if history has proven one thing about over-centralization in ANYTHING, it's that it IS a slippery slope. Once it starts, it is VERY hard to slow it down or stop it. At this point, damage is being done; I feel that time will show that our job soon will shift to damage mitigation because of all of this.

Really? Melee would like to disagree. Several characters overcentralized the metagame around themselves throughout Melee history. We all eventually found ways around them.

If such ways exist, they will be found. If a character overcentralizes the metagame, the chance of finding ways around them will actually increase.

 

[Cirno]

They are insightful enough to know the difference between 'The community can't deal with this' and 'The communty doesn't want to deal with this'.

Isn't that why MK hasn't been banned?

Or does it fall into the 'need more time to decide' category which most pro-MK debaters have been suggesting anyway?

If such ways exist, they will be found. If a character overcentralizes the metagame, the chance of finding ways around them will actually increase.

Cue low-tier character Yoshi having supposed neutral matchup with top tier MK~

 

[Mmac]

@da K.I.D - Why do you continue to proclaim that all Yoshi has is "Just a Chaingrab" in this Matchup. He has alot more if you took the time to actually research the matchup.

@TeeVee - It's been agreed by the Majority of the MetaKnight population, and is listed in all of his Matchup Forums, argued with facts and experience that Yoshi holds his ground against MetaKnight. It's already been proved numerous times.

 

[brinboy789]

Well, if we ascribe to the 'no what-ifs' way of argument, he's overcentralizing now; just read the character boards. Everything that comes up, the first question is, 'Does it work on MK?!' And if history has proven one thing about over-centralization in ANYTHING, it's that it IS a slippery slope. Once it starts, it is VERY hard to slow it down or stop it. At this point, damage is being done; I feel that time will show that our job soon will shift to damage mitigation because of all of this.

if MK is banned, what will change, it will just instead be"does it work on snake? d3? G&W?"

edit: jw, what does asking "DOES IT WORK ON MK" do to the community? they want ways to beat tier titans. its the same with every game