The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[infomon]

infzy people are referencing to the Tb video game not the card game which is utter crap. IMO.

LOL ohkay I thought that might be the case.... well srry I'm a Pokén00b

Metaknight is a broken character, but he isn't Akuma-good.

That alone doesn't mean he's not ban-worthy. If the tournament scene degenerates to nothing but MK vs. MK battles, then the effect is the same as Akuma. Assuming, of course, that it's because MK is that much better than all other characters. Which might be just 70:30'ing them, not 90:10 or 100:0's like Akuma.

 

[Yuna]

yes, but this new character will not overshadow the other characters stat-wise like mk has done. He has a much bigger gap between the other characters than the next character in line.

The only thing is that the only reason he's eclipsing the others so much is because he's popular. Match-up wise, he should be losing more (as in, he has several match-ups where it's close to even, thus, several match-ups where he doesn't just waltz in and win hands down). But a lot of the good players are just going MK for the easiest path.

Which means that there are tons of good MK players out there. And since they're good, they place well, thus eclipsing everyone else.

Inui played MK for only 2 weeks and beat Bum (Probably the best DK there is)... there is your learning curve for MK.

Lurning curves are irrelevant when speaking about bans.

So the people saying MK is beatable believe that DK would be a soft counter for him right? How is it that the best DK gets beat by a decent guy who has used MK for 2 weeks.

1) Not a soft counter.
2) It's just one set between two people? But since it helps your case, I guess it proves that DK gets destroyed by MK and MK is broken.

Also MK being beatable is kind of an iffy excuse to not ban him. If he had a 90-10 match up against everyone in the cast he would still be beatable.

"...reasonable chance..."

Azen got his lucario 2 stocked twice in hobo 11 in the loosers final he goes MK and wins with out a problem.

According to whom? From what I hear from people who were actually there, he got Lee down to his last stock both times (the 2nd time at high percentages).

Not to mention that Azen said that Lee was the only MK against whom he did better as MK than as Lucario.

I don't think thats what Ussi was getting at. Sure MK is easy to learn but if the best DK gets beat by a guy who has used MK for 2 weeks then the match up isn't very neutral.

God forbid DK players practice the match-up and eventually they are both playing at the highest possible level. Just because X character is easier to pick up does not mean he's too good if given enough time, both characters will hit the highest possible level where they're theoretically even.

This is this and that is that. "Easier to pick up and learn initially" =/= "Not an even matchup".

And God forbid that Bum was just having a bad day, a bad set or just playing badly. According to eyewitnesses, Inui was spamming the Tornado in stupid ways and he still beat Bum and NinjaLink so I call shennanigans, unless Inui invented some random new Tonardo techs that make it sooooo much better and safer.

So can we conclude some reasons as to why MK should be banned instead of arguing over semantics and diction?

1-Matchup Analysis

2-MK domination tournament placings. Leading to MK dittos and MK placing top of the top in tournament placings.

I've been telling people to do this since page 15 or something.

We want to avoid the metagame devolving into one character, right? If that's the case, then we should ban any character whose worst non-mirror matchups is better than 50:50 in his favor (in this instance, MK). In game theory terminology, if a character is the strictly dominant choice in every metagame, then that character should be banned.

Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike. Yun posseses zero bad matchups. His worst matchup is a 55:45 in his favour against Chun-Li. Is he banned? No.

If people play to win, the metagame will collapse into that one character alone (and I get the feeling that people who don't play to win are to be considered stupid and should be ignored for the purposes of these arguments?).

Funny, Yun and Xianghua (Soul Calibur) disagree. Then there's a bunch of other characters throughout history who suffer zero disadvantageous matchups but who nonetheless didn't randomly dominate and get banned.

Popularity counts for a lot. If people would just try to devise ways to combat Meta Knight instead of whining about him being banned, maybe we'd see more people winning. But people are lazy. Either they pick Meta Knight for the easiest path (easiest path =/= must be banned) or they want him banned to not have to deal with him.

Stuff.

Devising a standard that catches only Meat Knight is not enough. It must also prove that no character stands a reasonable chance of winning against him. Otherwise, it's banning him for just being really, really good without being able to prove that he's "too good".

Stuff.

We've dealt with that already? "You are not original!"

Someone did report that when Inui tried to fight those better players in a "non-cheap" way, he'd usually get beaten until he'd spam the tornado, to which there seemed to be no defense against. "He would use it as carelessly as an approach, often spamming it 7 to 8 times in a row~"

So, yes, maybe DK is just really, really bad against the Mach Tornado. Or maybe Bum is just really, really bad against it. Here's a question: Why aren't more really, really good players losing due to Mach Tornado spam?

So are so many of them dealing with it just fine?

Soft counter is just wishful thinking. Even the greatest dk gets ***** by a single move.

DK being a "soft counter" is an outdated belief. Anyone still believing it needs to read up on the current metagame.

A ban on Meta Knight should be contingent on two questions and the answers to them:
1.) Does Meta Knight have any match-ups that are not advantageous to him?
2.) Can his non-advantageous match-ups reliably stand a chance against him?

No, it should only be contingent on the 2nd question. The 1st does not necessarily make him "too good".

If Meta Knight was at a clear advantage against everyone else, I'd say that he should be banned.
But he's not. Two characters may not be a lot, but it's something standing between him and complete domination.

But people are lazy and want the easiest path, so they flock to Meta or other Tops (like, say, Snake). They want to have to learn some new characters to counterpick Meta Knight because that'd require, you know, work.

This makes the faulty assumption that MK's tornado is part of what really makes him broken.

It's not.

Tell that to the people whining about how Inui managed to beat Bum and NinjaLink by literally spamming it to bits. Obviously that proves it (and MK) is broken.

 

[saviorslegacy]

This might be to late. I didn't want to sit around and read every freakin post so here goes.

I think Lucario and Ike are good match ups to MK.

Since Lucario has a good fair he can stop some air assults that MK's do so frequently. He out ranged MK in every way. Down special will counter most Mach Tornado's and Drill rushes. On top of all of this MK's not being able to KO an opponent unless at high damage just increase's his aura.

Ike out ranges him in every way as well. Foward special is good for catching them off guard and quick. Down special works the same as Lucario's. Fair is like Lucario's. Aether stop's his gliding. Also, if you happen to land a foward smash you send MK to his death at about 50%. This said it's easier to kill MK with foward smash than it sounds. Just use it when his AAAAAAAAAAAAA attack is used. lol, most MK's chain about three seconds of a combo into down smash, that's when you get them.

There, I have to good match ups for MK. You just have to use them just right. <_<

 

[AlAxe]

Not yet, but the gap between them is still almost 700 points.

And he does have over 3 times the amount of wins that Snake does.

It's the wins that I think make MK out of control. Other characters can still gain points because there are still many great players that play other characters and do very well in tournaments, yet MK seems to dominate the #1 spot. MK isn't taking the entire top 8 of every tournament but he always takes the #1 spot. I believe MK has as many wins as the next 5 or so characters combined.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

IKE >MK? LOL

 

[Koga]

Not yet, but the gap between them is still almost 700 points.

And he does have over 3 times the amount of wins that Snake does.

Not trying to say that wins don't mean as much, but popularity plays alot into wins.

In my area Olimar is very popular, its not uncommon to have 2-4 of your top 8 playing olimar here, so that greatly increases his chances to win the tourney, that's why i think on a character basis, we should discount wins based on how many of that character was played because that gives the character more chances to win.

I'm really frustrated at my local tournies, My DDD macthup is so bad because none of my friends play him and the guy at the tournies that does always knocks me out of the tourney.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not trying to say that wins don't mean as much, but popularity plays alot into wins.

Popularity plays a lot into placing high. It actually does not play much into wins (because, the players that win are you know...good)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you are absolutely right. top 8 are a popularity contest maybe.... but top 3 aren't. And they are ALL MK

 

[Blad01]

For those who wanted a poll : http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=3615.

So i already stated why MK was so strong.... But there is not only that... He also freezing the entire metagame. Will middle or even high characters ever be played ? With MK, there are absolutly no chance.

 

[zaf]

Just ban mk's b moves.
He clearly does not need them.
He has 6 jumps and can glide. It is still easy to recover with him.
To ensure that mk b moves are not used, you can switch the b button for attack or any other button.
He will never accidentally do it, so he can not be falsely charged.

A lot of people can not fight mk cuz of his b moves. You eliminate that problem and you have a less potent character.

This is much simpler. It allows mk players to still use him.

 

[BentoBox]

So, yes, maybe DK is just really, really bad against the Mach Tornado. Or maybe Bum is just really, really bad against it. Here's a question: Why aren't more really, really good players losing due to Mach Tornado spam?

So are so many of them dealing with it just fine?

As quoted from M2K, there are 3 characters who cannot escape the nado under any circumstances. DK simply gets decimated should he be wandering above MK. DK is said to have a 50:50 matchup against MK atm, iirc. Why is that?

Do you know of many good MK players spamming the nado carelessly? Because I don't. But that doesn't prove that it doesn't work. That would be like having an Akuma player not abusing air FBs, to a lesser extent. Should we have MKs spamming shuttle loop and nados and see how well they fare? lol

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Stop trying to prove that he's good, try to prove that he's "too good". Those criteria can still be easily explained by, say, "He's popular" and "That just means he's the best character in the game".

Since Meta Knight still has a few match-ups many argue are 45:55 and 5-4, he still has match-ups where the opposition holds a reasonable chance at victory. It's when no such match-ups exist that he becomes "too good".

Just because people aren't bothering learning said match-ups better in order to beat MK does not mean it's not possible.

<snip>

But can you ban a character when they have every single one of these traits, AND is too small and fast to hit back among even more character traits that make him the best in the game?

I believe you can.

If this all proves that he's "too good" and no one stands a reasonable chance of beating him and he's so impossible to beat, how come all of his matchups aren't at least 6-4s? Why does he still have at least one 55:45 and several 5-4s (arguably)?

All of those traits put together makes one very powerful character, but not necessarily "too good". Prove he's "too good", not that he's "good".

It's not random; is that what you meant there? I could explain the conditions for the MT to cancel out projectiles if someone wants.... (I'd like to further tactics-against-MK metagame wherever possible :o)

Switch out "random" with "sometimes".

Who in the Jesus is Sarah Palin?

It's better if you don't know. Also... Omaha, Nebraska?

I think the noobs are right. It's easy to beat MK.

You just have to be substantially more skilled than every MK user.

Or negligibly if you pick the rick characters.

I still want Yuna to respond to post #1915...

Funny, I thought I already did:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5505989&postcount=1921

Exactly, he completely changes the game when he hits the field.

Different =/= Must be banned

I do not play Pokémon, I'm just saying.

Stuff.

I am to deduce from this that neither you nor Santi want MK banned?

Is this because he has experience against TL, or because the MKs don't have experience against TL?

I don't think it is coincidence that the MK he plays the most consistently beats him. I had trouble with Q's Toon Link the first few times I played it with MK... then I learned how to edgeguard and the matchup was over.

Dojo also said that he's beaten Santi with characters other than MK.

And, what is this line of arguing? Oh, people losing to MK means he's broken! They're obviously playing at the top of their game and MK's winning anyway, but MKs losing... then they must be inexperienced!

Toon link deserves better than middle teir. he's one of the better matchups against MK so where he's arbitrarily bee placed is irrelevant. As long as Santi had enough of a skill advantage over his oponents' MKs, he SHOULD be winning.

TL has more bad match-ups than just MK, which explains his placement. Also, people don't like the little shota because they make him get funny sweaty feelings in their groins.

This toon link example is just a crappier version of the Diddy example people gave when Ninjalink beat M2K a while ago. Everyone flipped the hell out, and what happened? Ninjalink lost to Inui, a 2 week old MK, not too long ago.

At least the diddy example didn't end with the diddy losing to an MK that tournament to an MK.

Hey, Dojo was only responding to people whining about how he once destroyed Santi in a finals Santi admitted to have sandbagged (i.e. thrown).

We said "Santi said he sandbagged", the whiners said "We don't care! He got *****, obviously, MK is too good!".

I'm still calling shennanigans. According to eyewitnesses, Inui managed to win through excessive Mach Tornado spam in not-so-smart ways. Either he's magically managed to refine the Mach Tornado or NinjaLink was just playing crappily.

That alone doesn't mean he's not ban-worthy. If the tournament scene degenerates to nothing but MK vs. MK battles, then the effect is the same as Akuma. Assuming, of course, that it's because MK is that much better than all other characters. Which might be just 70:30'ing them, not 90:10 or 100:0's like Akuma.

If the scene degenerates into Meta vs. Meta because Meta 70:30s everyone, then yeah, ban him. But if he still only 55:45s and 5:4s a lot of people but win a lot because people flock to him (i.e. popularity), then no.

At this writing moment, it's consensus that there are still characters with a reasonable chance of defeating MK. And by reasonable, I mean 55:55 and 5-4s. Quite possibly even 6-4s, but that's very iffy.

For those who wanted a poll : http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=3615.

So i already stated why MK was so strong.... But there is not only that... He also freezing the entire metagame. Will middle or even high characters ever be played ? With MK, there are absolutly no chance.

If he's too good, we have to ban him. If he's just too popular, stop whining and learn to beat him yourself.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just ban mk's b moves.
He clearly does not need them.
He has 6 jumps and can glide. It is still easy to recover with him.
To ensure that mk b moves are not used, you can switch the b button for attack or any other button.
He will never accidentally do it, so he can not be falsely charged.

A lot of people can not fight mk cuz of his b moves. You eliminate that problem and you have a less potent character.

This is much simpler. It allows mk players to still use him.

though the idea isn't AWFUL, you know he's either going to be untouched or completely banned. no middle ground.

 

[Yuna]

As quoted from M2K, there are 3 characters who cannot escape the nado under any circumstances. DK simply gets decimated should he be wandering above MK. DK is said to have a 50:50 matchup against MK atm, iirc. Why is that?

I never said DK had a 50:50 vs. Meta. No one else credible did either. Nobody cares what randoms claimed.

So Meta Knight shuts down 3 characters with the Tornado. And?

Do you know of many good MK players spamming the nado carelessly? Because I don't. But that doesn't prove that it doesn't work.

It doesn't work against anyone good... unless they're playing as one of a select few.

That would be like having an Akuma player not abusing air FBs, to a lesser extent. Should we have MKs spamming shuttle loop and nados and see how well they fare? lol

No, it's not, because against people who aren't those 3 (or some other characters who are just bad against it), it won't work well (careless spamming) and it will get you punished.

 

[Blad01]

If he's too good, we have to ban him. If he's just too popular, stop whining and learn to beat him yourself.

He's both. Plus he's too easy to pick.

(Personnally i'm not entirelly for the ban of MK yet. Let's say, i'm 80% for the ban of MK, and i want to wait a few months to see how it evolves. By example until Marh 09 ^^)

And even if i can sometimes beat MKs, his popularity is ruining Brawl, that's all. I don't want the ban of MK for myself, but for the health, the development of Brawl.

 

[Overswarm]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

 

[Blad01]

Hum, i pretty much agree with your criterias Overswarm

I'm gonna think to this question, for the moment it's pretty correct for me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

question

What criteria do you think is necessary to ban a character (ANY CHARACTER) in brawl?


1. Character has no counters or poor matchups
2. Character has no poor stages
3. Character has shown to do reliabily well in local tournaments across the US, taking at least one placement in the top 3 on a consistent basis.
4. Character wins a multitude of local tournaments across the US
5. Character has shown to do reliably well in national tournaments across the US, taking several of the spots in the top 8.
6. Character fits the previous criteria consistently at high levels of play for at least half a year
7. Character prevents a large majority (3/4) of the other characters from being played competitively
8. Character has a even matchup at worst with a large majority (3/4) of the highest ranking characters on the tier list
9. Character has no other characters in the game that share these qualities


All of this criteria must be met.



This is mine

*waits for yuna to somehow dodge the question and equate this entire post to popularity*

 

[Daimonster]

I believe 7 and 8 should not be much of an issue. Some characters in fighters are simply bad.

 

[BentoBox]

3,4,5 and 6 are irrelevant, imo. A character simply doing good shouldn't be an incentive to ban.

@Yuna: How outdated is this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
And since you know better, what are MK's hardest matchups?

 

[Overswarm]

3,4,5 and 6 are irrelevant, imo. A character simply doing good shouldn't be an incentive to ban.

@Yuna: How outdated is this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
And since you know better, what are MK's hardest matchups?

all of these criteria must be met

The criteria by itself does nothing. It is the combination.

 

[da K.I.D.]

both of you are right, 3,4,5,6,7, 8 arent all that bad, but the thing that OS is trying to do is look at what happens when you put all of those together AND THAN, add in NUMBER 9 because number 9 really is the kicker to the whole list

EDIT: eff you OS for getting to it b4 me lol

 

[FBM]

I think SP nailed in his first post: given the amount of time and effort you would have to focus on one of three characters (I think that's how many have it even with him these days) in order to just get level with MKs, you might as well just pick up MK to have an advantage over any other characters you might run into.

This mentality might not get him banned now, but if it persists, it will poison the tournament scene. Bless all the people like Edrees, who will stick with a character against all odds, for trying to save us from MK hell, but we are heading in that direction.

And as of yesterday, according to the Character Rankings, since the start of Brawl, MK has taken...

30.8% of the wins
15.6% of the top2 finishes
15.5% of the top4 finishes
12.0% of the top8 finishes

And he's 2.6% of the cast.

(counting PT as one character and Sheik, Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda as three, as the Rankings do)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Stop mentioning tourney results. I said it more than once: If you count tournament results, Melee Marth should've been banned too

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats results for you...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Stop mentioning tourney results. I said it more than once: If you count tournament results, Melee Marth should've been banned too

since when? fox won just as many tourneys as marth, they are still debating on who the best character in that game is...

 

[Dojo]

This toon link example is just a crappier version of the Diddy example people gave when Ninjalink beat M2K a while ago. Everyone flipped the hell out, and what happened? Ninjalink lost to Inui, a 2 week old MK, not too long ago.

At least the diddy example didn't end with the diddy losing to an MK that tournament to an MK.

No, I'm saying he hasn't lost to a MK in tourney PERIOD if it wasn't me. Thats only because I know the matchup like the back of my hand. I've studied every aspect of it. People tend to say I edgeguard very well and Santi still survives. He's managed to advance his survival game to double stage techs, perserving bombs for an extra up B, and using boomerangs to break up easy gimps.

The ONLY other MK he has lost to happens to be at a level higher than most of us a whole.

 

[infomon]

And as of yesterday, according to the Character Rankings, since the start of Brawl, MK has taken...

30.8% of the wins
15.6% of the top2 finishes
15.5% of the top4 finishes
12.0% of the top8 finishes

And he's 2.6% of the cast.

This hurts your thesis. Those results don't look bad at all. The other 69.2% of wins could all have been Snake lol. In particular, counting results since the start of Brawl is ridiculous. The metagame has changed a lot even in the past few months... where MK dominance has become stronger, so if anything you're needlessly hurting your own argument

 

[~ Gheb ~]

since when? fox won just as many tourneys as marth, they are still debating on who the best character in that game is...

No Fox didn't win as much. The 3 most succesful Melee players all mained Marth (Azaen, Ken, M2K).

Yes they are debating but most ppl agree that fox is potentially the best charcter. I have yet to see a perfectly played Melee fox...the only one I can remember was PC at OC3...

 

[Overswarm]

Stop mentioning tourney results. I said it more than once: If you count tournament results, Melee Marth should've been banned too

Melee's Marth didn't have the results Brawl's MK does now.

No, I'm saying he hasn't lost to a MK in tourney PERIOD if it wasn't me. Thats only because I know the matchup like the back of my hand. I've studied every aspect of it. People tend to say I edgeguard very well and Santi still survives. He's managed to advance his survival game to double stage techs, perserving bombs for an extra up B, and using boomerangs to break up easy gimps.

The ONLY other MK he has lost to happens to be at a level higher than most of us a whole.

Like I said... the moment MK knows the matchup, GG. You know as well as I do they didn't know what they were doing against TL, and you admittedly play against Santi all the time and are a good MK. I think Santi might have had a decent shot at knowing more about the matchup than others?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Melee's Marth didn't have the results Brawl's MK does now.

Remember Sheik at the beginning of Brawl? She had the results MK has now and ppl said she should be banned before ATs were found

 

[Overswarm]

Remember Sheik at the beginning of Brawl? She had the results MK has now and ppl said she should be banned before ATs were found

If the ATs weren't there, she should have been.

 

[NinjaLink]

Just wanted to add i wasnt playing as well as i wanted. I was up for about 40 hours straight while at that tourney. The video is up for me fighting him EVEN THOUGH i told him not to record any of my matches. For myself i dont worry about the character, but the fact remains if he can in fact beat every other char with ease, doesnt sound too good for this game. Even IF he did has a counterpick, which i think a couple chars are, the fact is not every single person in the community is gonna learn that character just to beat an MK player whos average but beats everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc6_Xuu-_90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blFbHePtuHI

Even said by the MK Player himself, he got lucky.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If the ATs weren't there, she should have been.

Yeah but ppl gave the game a little time and that's what we should do now too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gheb: Are you serious?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why do you ask? Do I sound n00bish?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Man...I don't even feel like getting into it. Forget I said anything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can't foget it. Just ask me!

 

[Dojo]

Like I said... the moment MK knows the matchup, GG. You know as well as I do they didn't know what they were doing against TL, and you admittedly play against Santi all the time and are a good MK. I think Santi might have had a decent shot at knowing more about the matchup than others?

The only matchup anybody knows is MK. How long do you think it'll take to truly learn the matchup as good as Santi knows his matchup to beat him with a character that VERY few people use so well.

 

[FBM]

This hurts your thesis. Those results don't look bad at all. The other 69.2% of wins could all have been Snake lol. In particular, counting results since the start of Brawl is ridiculous. The metagame has changed a lot even in the past few months... where MK dominance has become stronger, so if anything you're needlessly hurting your own argument

The second half of your post, which I should have made more explicit in my post, explains the first half. It's 30%, even though MK wasn't as popular as Snake when Brawl came out. Also, you can look at how the % of the position he occupies increases as you go up the placings.

And if you really want to address Snake, MK has more wins than the next 5 characters combined.