The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[ArcPoint]

"Play MK or lose" That implies no chance of winning with any other character than Metaknight. I don't think it's possible for MK to 100:0 the whole cast even in the future...

 

[Lord Exor]

Like I said earlier, if you really want MK banned, bring him to your next tournament. The more MKs, the better.

 

[Espy Rose]

Isn't this the question Yuna has been answering all this time?

It is, but I'm just curious.

I mean, on one side, I agree with the "MK could be ban-worthy, but not just yet, the meta game has to change a bit before we make judgment."

On the other side, if there is indeed a flocking to MK with the sole purpose of proving that he's ban-worthy, then why wait?

I'm just kinda torn between the two. I want a due process to be done to ensure that everything goes smoothly and easily for Meta Knight, and whatever happens to him.

On the other side, I've always despised Meta Knight (even before Brawl), and nothing would please me more than to see him banned. That, and it'd make a fresh change, considering all the MKs that I had to weave through at a tournament I played at last month...

Of course, I'm not going to act completely biased. I am a reasonable person, afterall.

@Arc: I don't think there is such thing as 100:0 in Brawl.

Hell, I'd take 70:30 as "a hill so steep you might as well fly over it...




with Meta Knight".

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Wait, Yuna brought Sarah Palin into this thread?

he's been throwing pot shots in her direction for pages upon pages, yeah.

 

[Mocha19]

Yuna, most people you are trying to convince will not be convinced as from what I have learned today because biased opinion matters over rationality for most people. I am one of the few who are appreciating what you are saying, though.

Matters of this sort will most likely be up to the backroom to decide, but it seems like it's more of a discrimination against Metaknight more than anything. Cyphus, one of our named players in Louisiana, stated that people just simply have to hate him enough to ban him.. =[

 

[Yuna]

so you're going to willingly and knowingly put out a faulty answer?

How is it faulty when the rules set forth made it a valid answer? You can't stipulate one single rule, then add to it and state that the answer I gave in between the two events was faulty when it wasn't at the time that I submitted it

not necessarily. i believe mk is ban material, but i think we should give the metagame more time. i feel very uneasy about the whole thing, but as it stands, he falls within my definitions of what should be banned.

I think he's gettting there but is not there yet. Regardless, it's too early, IMO.

doesn't matter. i never even called you a name or anything, i just said you have a "displeasing personality." that said, you've attacked sarah palin multiple times in this thread. while she's not here and i'm DEFINITELY not a supporter of her, that pretty handily relinquishes you of your right to complain about flaming. imo, anyway.

Sarah Palin is a public figure, a "celebrity". The rules do not prohibit us from "ad homineming" celebrities who aren't here to defend themselves. Besides, I didn't ad hominem her (I think, did I call her names or call her stupid? I don't think so). I tied some users' behaviors to hers when they corresponded.

he's been throwing pot shots in her direction for pages upon pages, yeah.

also:

I believe I mentioned her... twice?

"Play MK or lose" That implies no chance of winning with any other character than Metaknight. I don't think it's possible for MK to 100:0 the whole cast even in the future...

This is where the elaboration "No character, or at least very, very few of them, stand a reasonable chance of beating X-character" comes in.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm a little surprised Palin's here, I thought Palin was a topic he used specifically in political PMs with me, I didn't realize he brought her up elsewhere with frequency.

Anyway - I don't think MK should be banned outright because, well he is fun to play. But OS is correct, MK is always the best choice in double blinds. Kinda defeats the purpose of a "double blind," and may destroy an entire system of tournament, if everyone is "playing to win."

 

[choknater]

I can't believe OS actually said something like that.

 

[Yuna]

On the other side, if there is indeed a flocking to MK with the sole purpose of proving that he's ban-worthy, then why wait?

Because it's too early and/or they have yet to actually prove that he's ban-worthy? Trying to =/= Actually managing to.

On the other side, I've always despised Meta Knight (even before Brawl), and nothing would please me more than to see him banned.

O... K...

That, and it'd make a fresh change, considering all the MKs that I had to weave through at a tournament I played at last month...

Popularity...

I'm a little surprised Palin's here, I thought Palin was a topic he used specifically in political PMs with me, I didn't realize he brought her up elsewhere with frequency.

Anyway - I don't think MK should be banned outright because, well he is fun to play. But OS is correct, MK is always the best choice in double blinds. Kinda defeats the purpose of a "double blind," and may destroy an entire system of tournament, if everyone is "playing to win."

I saw Republicanesque, McCainesque and Palinesque behavior in this thread and called it as I saw it.

This was the first time I did it, though.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

How is it faulty when the rules set forth made it a valid answer? You can't stipulate one single rule, then add to it and state that the answer I gave in between the two events was faulty when it wasn't at the time that I submitted it

and i rebutted it. response?

Sarah Palin is a public figure, a "celebrity". The rules do not prohibit us from "ad homineming" celebrities who aren't here to defend themselves. Besides, I didn't ad hominem her (I think, did I call her names or call her stupid? I don't think so). I tied some users' behaviors to hers when they corresponded.

I believe I mentioned her... twice?

you definitely mentioned her more than twice. don't ask me to prove it.

regardless of what "the rules" are, your concern only over perceived flames sent your way has been made apparent, stripping you of your right to complain about flaming at all.

of course, i'm not some god of internet attacks, so by all means, do what you wish.

 

[Espy Rose]

Because it's too early and/or they have yet to actually prove that he's ban-worthy? Trying to =/= Actually managing to.

Sorry, it was more rhetorical, rather than me actually asking. I've been keeping up with the thread, so I know why.

O... K...

Don't worry, I'm not going to let my hate ever blind my judgment...or am I? >

Popularity...

They can play MK all they want, and win all the money in the world...

It's still lame.

I saw Republicanesque, McCainesque and Palinesque behavior in this thread and called it as I saw it.

This was the first time I did it, though.

I lol'd.

 

[brinboy789]

aboit 80-85% of MK mainers are tierwhores.

 

[choknater]

Man these multi-quote walls are making me laugh. The more the quotes the less I want to read them.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

aboit 80-85% of MK mainers are tierwhores.

For the record - High tiers are fun.

MK moves fast, hits stuff, and flies, and Snake makes stuff go boom.

Yes, I could go into much more technical detail. but these are the fundamental reasons I play these characters at all.

Ike F-Smash FTW in scrub friendlies. You know it feels good.

Now if Sakurai only invented Ike climbers...

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Man these multi-quote walls are making me laugh. The more the quotes the less I want to read them.

i know, i've literally skipped entire consecutive pages

 

[brinboy789]

i know, i've literally skipped entire consecutive pages

i didnt go on smashboards for a day and a half and this thread advanced 50 pages.

 

[Overswarm]

I can't believe OS actually said something like that.

Believe it, sister.

 

[Tenki]

original post:

MK weaknesses are that he is light, has no projectile, vulnerable after using all of his b moves, weak attacks in general, slow aerial movement. MK's range matches of marths.

------------

lol like, shtornado keep on pressing b and weave in and out of opponent to cause massive amounts of pain? maybe but if you keep on doing it it will become predictable. i rarely use the tornado anyways

2 things:
- I used the 'weaving in and out' [at a low height] example to address your statement about how his specials are vulnerable during their fall, or something like that. Tornado doesn't necessarily have to be for damage. Disruption, pressure, it's all there. Oh, and if it hits, you can just use it to launch people up for a juggle.

- You said you rarely use the tornado anyway. I've also played/watched some MK's that also rarely use tornado. They did pretty well. Hm.
I guess tornado isn't even that necessary of a "staple" in MK's game.

Side-B is probably the most vulnerable, but like you said, it's rarely used. It's like bringing up how to punish Ike's F-smash. Down-B is slightly vulnerable, but again, it's rarely used, and if you don't attack, you have less lag out of it.

Let's add Tornado to that list then. Tornado as an optional part of MK's gameplay, rather than being a more 'required' move to use.

So... your statement about the specials' falls being vulnerable now has less weight going for it. Side-B is "rarely used", so its falling state is not very often presented to take advantage of in the first place. Down-B is generally "rarely used", and it's usually aimed towards the ground anyway, so fall-state is irrelevant. And since Tornado is a move that MK can apparently live without, I guess it's a situation that's easily circumvented if the player doesn't use it much anyway.

Why bring up weaknesses that aren't apparent in actual gameplay?

 

[Fyist]

If you ban MK the chances are another character will rise to the top, then what? Lets ban that character also?

 

[p0ser]

If you ban MK the chances are another character will rise to the top, then what? Lets ban that character also?

yes, but this new character will not overshadow the other characters stat-wise like mk has done. He has a much bigger gap between the other characters than the next character in line.

 

[brinboy789]

original post:

------------



2 things:
- I used the 'weaving in and out' [at a low height] example to address your statement about how his specials are vulnerable during their fall, or something like that. Tornado doesn't necessarily have to be for damage. Disruption, pressure, it's all there. Oh, and if it hits, you can just use it to launch people up for a juggle.

- You said you rarely use the tornado anyway. I've also played/watched some MK's that also rarely use tornado. They did pretty well. Hm.
I guess tornado isn't even that necessary of a "staple" in MK's game.

Let's add Tornado to that list then. Tornado as an optional part of MK's gameplay, rather than being a more 'required' move to use.

So... your statement about the specials' falls being vulnerable now has less weight going for it. Side-B is "rarely used", so its falling state is not very often presented to take advantage of in the first place. Down-B is generally "rarely used", and it's usually aimed towards the ground anyway, so fall-state is irrelevant. And since Tornado is a move that MK can apparently live without, I guess it's a situation that's easily circumvented if the player doesn't use it much anyway.

Why bring up weaknesses that aren't apparent in actual gameplay?

the problem is, it DOES have to do with gameplay. well not mine, but apparently most of the MK mainers out there. apparently them spam tornado like theres no tomorrow, or at least use it alot, which is one major petition for the MK ban

If you ban MK the chances are another character will rise to the top, then what? Lets ban that character also?

snake. hes 300 points above every char in tourneys cept for MK. his slow moves suck and his fast moves = broken

 

[cutter]

If you ban MK the chances are another character will rise to the top, then what? Lets ban that character also?

Didn't you read the thread before posting?

 

[Ussi]

Inui played MK for only 2 weeks and beat Bum (Probably the best DK there is)... there is your learning curve for MK.

 

[ArcPoint]

We've already established this.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Inui played MK for only 2 weeks and beat Bum (Probably the best DK there is)... there is your learning curve for MK.

So the people saying MK is beatable believe that DK would be a soft counter for him right? How is it that the best DK gets beat by a decent guy who has used MK for 2 weeks.

Also MK being beatable is kind of an iffy excuse to not ban him. If he had a 90-10 match up against everyone in the cast he would still be beatable.



Just another example I thought I would mention.

Azen got his lucario 2 stocked twice in hobo 11 in the loosers final he goes MK and wins with out a problem.

 

[choknater]

azen said himself that Lee was the only metaknight where he was better off dittoing and he usually does better with Lucario against MKs, including mew2king

 

[Vulcan55]

Inui played MK for only 2 weeks and beat Bum (Probably the best DK there is)... there is your learning curve for MK.

Being easy to use is irrelevant. It only adds to his popularity.
Lord forbid somebody practice the match-up.

 

[ArcPoint]

Azen himself addressed that example. And Yuna doesn't define 90:10 a "reasonable" chance.

 

[Mocha19]

Being easy to use is irrelevant. It only adds to his popularity.
Lord forbid somebody practice the match-up.

That's what I did!! =D

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Being easy to use is irrelevant. It only adds to his popularity.
Lord forbid somebody practice the match-up.

I don't think thats what Ussi was getting at. Sure MK is easy to learn but if the best DK gets beat by a guy who has used MK for 2 weeks then the match up isn't very neutral.

 

[Daimonster]

So can we conclude some reasons as to why MK should be banned instead of arguing over semantics and diction?

1-Matchup Analysis

2-MK domination tournament placings. Leading to MK dittos and MK placing top of the top in tournament placings.

 

[cutter]

Being easy to use is irrelevant. It only adds to his popularity.
Lord forbid somebody practice the match-up.

Did Yuna hijack your account? LMFAO

 

[Zelc]

We want to avoid the metagame devolving into one character, right? If that's the case, then we should ban any character whose worst non-mirror matchups is better than 50:50 in his favor (in this instance, MK). In game theory terminology, if a character is the strictly dominant choice in every metagame, then that character should be banned. If people play to win, the metagame will collapse into that one character alone (and I get the feeling that people who don't play to win are to be considered stupid and should be ignored for the purposes of these arguments?).

On the other hand, a character with a non-mirror matchup that's 50:50 cannot force the metagame to collapse into just one character, because there will be a choice that puts you just as well off as if you chose to play the mirror. At some point, people may still make an argument for banning such characters if they restrict the metagame (i.e. only have 1x 50:50 matchup), but that's outside the discussion here. The strict dominance standard for bans may be stricter than the ideal standard for bans, but the ideal standard probably should include the strict dominance standard.

This standard catches MK. MK is a strictly dominant character. All of his matchups other than the mirror is better than 50:50. This standard does not catch Marth (if we assume any standard that catches Marth is a bad one). Marth is at most a weakly dominant character in that he has 50:50 matchups. In fact, Marth shouldn't be able to dominate the metagame because he has a slightly unfavorable matchup vs. Snake, at 45:55. If Marth takes over enough of the metagame, you're better off picking Snake than Marth.

There, no more wishy-washyness about being popular vs. being good.

P.S.: Words are fuzzy, numbers are not. If you want to refute this by saying 45:55 or 55:45 is even, then you've missed the point. 45:55 is still worse than 50:50, and 55:45 is better than 50:50. If you disagree, I propose you send me $50 in the mail and I will send you $45 in return.

 

[Xyro77]

Heres some thing to add to this discussion:

This past saturday(october 4th) I held a tournament in HOUSTON,Tx. Please read the results.


1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)
9: Chuck (meta/pkmn)
9: Ky (pit)
9: Dojo (meta)
9: Magik (meta/pkmn)
13: Mr. 3000 (sonic/ddd)
13: Infinity (meta)
13: Ultamate Razor (snake)
13: Axe (wolf)
17: Fliphop (diddy)
17: Domo (meta)
17: UTD Zack (GW)
17: Dr. Mario Kart (meta)
17: Light
17: Santi (Tlink)
17: Xyro(SAMUS!!!)
17: Thien (diddy)
25: Nynja (diddy)
25: Lee Harris (rob/meta)
25: Zori (olimar)
25: Ice (snake)
25: Kown (pit)
25: Affinity (meta)
25: Bad News Bear (pika/wolf)
25: Bwett (yoshi)
33: T-Rex (snake)
33: ArturitoBurrito (ike)
33: Kira (marth/snake
33: Bluejay (mario)
33: Kosmos (peach/ZS)
33: Vash (pit)
33: Kalo (marth/wolf)
33: Sethlon (falco)
33: Salocin (meta/fox)
33: Furbs (yoshi)
33: Carnage (meta)
33: Gar (falco/marth)
33: C.Y. (falco)
33: Dingding (link)
33: Broli (fox/marth)
33: Axxo (falco/meta)
49: Kado (falco)
49: Mr.Sir.Dr.Daddy
49: Chaddly
49: Zeton (fox)
49: Trela
49: Gea
49: Heytallman (lucas)
49: Sam388
49: Swoll (ganon)
49: Toast
49: Tuxedo Maniac (wario)
60-112=pool players who didnt make it out

 

[cutter]

Just to let you guys know, I'm in the middle of making an EPIC comic depicting MK's ban.

 

[Koga]

So can we conclude some reasons as to why MK should be banned instead of arguing over semantics and diction?

1-Matchup Analysis

2-MK domination tournament placings. Leading to MK dittos and MK placing top of the top in tournament placings.

no and no

seriously, do any of you remember melee? and how fox did for so long? and sheik? and how they wanted to ban Chain grabbing? and that game was around for 7 years. This one has been around in the states since March, not even a year, and you want to ban a character because of matchups and tourney placings? you reeeeaaaaally need to reasess your standards in competative gaming

 

[BentoBox]

So the people saying MK is beatable believe that DK would be a soft counter for him right? How is it that the best DK gets beat by a decent guy who has used MK for 2 weeks.

Well, you see...

ddd bowser DK can never escape [the tornado], [...]

source: http://smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5467253

Someone did report that when Inui tried to fight those better players in a "non-cheap" way, he'd usually get beaten until he'd spam the tornado, to which there seemed to be no defense against. "He would use it as carelessly as an approach, often spamming it 7 to 8 times in a row~"

Soft counter is just wishful thinking. Even the greatest dk gets ***** by a single move.

 

[jehonaker]

A ban on Meta Knight should be contingent on two questions and the answers to them:
1.) Does Meta Knight have any match-ups that are not advantageous to him?
2.) Can his non-advantageous match-ups reliably stand a chance against him?

Here are the answers, as far as I grok the current metagame...

1- Meta Knight has several effectively neutral match-ups (anywhere from 45:55 to 55:45). I believe that they are Yoshi and maybe Snake or Donkey Kong. (Unsure about the last two...pretty sure DK isn't and Snake is.)

2- Assuming that only Yoshi and Snake are in the equation, yes. Snake's attacks have the ludicrous phantom hitboxes, and his power is clearly enough to take out Meta Knight early.
Yoshi has the grab-release-upwards smash and the grab-release-spike chains that he can pull on Meta Knight. If the Yoshi is competent and grabs Meta Knight, it's game over for that stock.


If Meta Knight was at a clear advantage against everyone else, I'd say that he should be banned.
But he's not. Two characters may not be a lot, but it's something standing between him and complete domination.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Someone did report that when Inui tried to fight those better players in a "non-cheap" way, he'd usually get beaten until he'd spam the tornado, to which there seemed to be no defense against. "He would use it as carelessly as an approach, often spamming it 7 to 8 times in a row~"

So basicly what your saying is if the MK goes all out he has no neutral match ups. Lets just tell people to hold back from winning 1000$ then.

 

[Ussi]

I was trying to make a point that MK's decent level of use can go on par with top level of a character who is supposed to be a soft counter.

@Koga: banning a tactic =/= banning a character so strike out chain grabbing, Plus there is more of it in brawl so i don't know how that actually helps your argument since we never once banned chain grabbing. Standing infinites depend on the tourney, its not a set rule.

Fox held on because of the immense skill it took to pull of his tactic.