The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Koga]

A ban on Meta Knight should be contingent on two questions and the answers to them:
1.) Does Meta Knight have any match-ups that are not advantageous to him?
2.) Can his non-advantageous match-ups reliably stand a chance against him?

Here are the answers, as far as I grok the current metagame...

1- Meta Knight has several effectively neutral match-ups (anywhere from 45:55 to 55:45). I believe that they are Yoshi and maybe Snake or Donkey Kong. (Unsure about the last two...pretty sure DK isn't and Snake is.)

2- Assuming that only Yoshi and Snake are in the equation, yes. Snake's attacks have the ludicrous phantom hitboxes, and his power is clearly enough to take out Meta Knight early.
Yoshi has the grab-release-upwards smash and the grab-release-spike chains that he can pull on Meta Knight. If the Yoshi is competent and grabs Meta Knight, it's game over for that stock.


If Meta Knight was at a clear advantage against everyone else, I'd say that he should be banned.
But he's not. Two characters may not be a lot, but it's something standing between him and complete domination.

10char See:

no and no

seriously, do any of you remember melee? and how fox did for so long? and sheik? and how they wanted to ban Chain grabbing? and that game was around for 7 years. This one has been around in the states since March, not even a year, and you want to ban a character because of matchups and tourney placings? you reeeeaaaaally need to reasess your standards in competative gaming

Ussi:

While MK has problems agianst the heavies, anyone telling you that DK is a soft counter is just wrong, he doesn't have the priority to beat MK ever. Snake does and Ike kinda does thats about it.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

no and no

seriously, do any of you remember melee? and how fox did for so long? and sheik? and how they wanted to ban Chain grabbing? and that game was around for 7 years. This one has been around in the states since March, not even a year, and you want to ban a character because of matchups and tourney placings? you reeeeaaaaally need to reasess your standards in competative gaming

This isn't melee. Plus your memory is faulty.

Both.



Okay, hypothetical situation:


DOUBLE BLIND


who do you pick?

MK is the 100% best choice at all time, assuming all your characters have equal experience.

Why?

He has no bad matchups, and he has no bad stages.


This sounds familiar... like Fox, from Melee! Unfortunately for Fox, he took it as much as he dished it out. Multiple characters rocked Fox as much as Fox rocked them.

Even more importantly, there were other characters like Fox. Marth, Falco, Sheik, and to a lesser extent Captain Falcon all could do very well against everyone in the game. Yes, the game came to a point where you had to main a "top tier" character to consistently do well. A few exceptions, but nothing crazy.

That was acceptable. Most fighting games have a few "top tiers" that are played consistently, it is natural for this to be so. Melee jsut had a large number of them. Brawl has even MORE.

Snake, D3, ROB, G&W, Falco, Marth, Wario... they can all hang at the top level. But not with MK around. With MK around, there's no reason to play any of those characters.

If you remove MK, those characters all become viable. Even more importantly, they all have a variety of counters! That means most people will be playing two characters! That's great for the community!


In short:

MK is broken. MK is always the best choice save for a few rare occasions where someone else ***** a certain character more than Metaknight does.. but that doesn't mean MK does poorly against that character. MK doesn't NEED anyone else.

Removing MK = awesome for Brawl.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if i may tl;dr mr burritos post, pls refer to the second part of my sig

 

[Koga]

This isn't melee. Plus your memory is faulty.

except that the quote you posted is wrong.

In the late days of melee, sure we had 5 tourney characters that had counters. But that was SEVEN YEARS INTO THE GAME. If you can remember a few months into Melee Fox's lazers were broken, followed quickly by Shieks chain grab being declared the fall of smash. Eventually people got better at executing techniques and these "broken" techs weren't as broken anymore and the meta game evolved.

I'll prove that MK isn't that OP:

A correctly spaced Counter by Marth or Ike can break MK out of tornado and they both out range Meta's sword and have relativly equal priorty.

"oh, but its to hard to space that counter"

that just means you need to get better, not that the tech is broken. so qq more

 

[jehonaker]

10char See:



Ussi:

While MK has problems agianst the heavies, anyone telling you that DK is a soft counter is just wrong, he doesn't have the priority to beat MK ever. Snake does and Ike kinda does thats about it.

What about Yoshi? The dinosaur is potentially a neutral/near-neutral against Meta Knight, due to the grab-release tricks. Yoshi actually has the range on his grab to pull it off "safely", and it can end with an upwards smash or Meteor Smash. The Egg Throw knocks him out of Mach Tornado, another plus, and the backwards aerial allows for some half-decent approaches.

And that's why I was skeptical about DK...the range and power are there, but the priority and attack speed are not.

Ike as a soft counter, though...never thought of that.
Guess one learns something every day.

 

[Koga]

What about Yoshi? The dinosaur is potentially a neutral/near-neutral against Meta Knight, due to the grab-release tricks. Yoshi actually has the range on his grab to pull it off "safely", and it can end with an upwards smash or Meteor Smash. The Egg Throw knocks him out of Mach Tornado, another plus, and the backwards aerial allows for some half-decent approaches.

And that's why I was skeptical about DK...the range and power are there, but the priority and attack speed are not.

Ike as a soft counter, though...never thought of that.
Guess one learns something every day.

Well i'm not educated in the school of yoshi, so i try not to comment on things i don't know about.

 

[Ussi]

Ike actually can deal with MK's B moves. It's his a moves that kill Ike @_@ tornado spammer? Fair'd to death. Plus i will say this dreaded statement i hate to hear -_-;;; Ike is too slow to do anything to MK... but its the only reason its a 35/65 match up for Ike.

 

[salaboB]

I'll prove that MK isn't that OP:

A correctly spaced Counter by Marth or Ike can break MK out of tornado and they both out range Meta's sword and have relativly equal priorty.

This makes the faulty assumption that MK's tornado is part of what really makes him broken.

It's not.

 

[Koga]

Ike actually can deal with MK's B moves. It's his a moves that kill Ike @_@ tornado spammer? Fair'd to death. Plus i will say this dreaded statement i hate to hear -_-;;; Ike is too slow to do anything to MK...

Well i know i was just putting it out there that Ike can somewhat deal with MK to some degree, maybe not a degree of victory, but its possible for ike to win if he basically plays the counter/grab game and, um, how does MK approach safely, an Ike charging quick draw on the other side of a flat stage?

if you come over the top he just lets it go and slides away from your attack, any other approach either resets neutral positions or ends with a quick draw to the face.

 

[Ussi]

This makes the faulty assumption that MK's tornado is part of what really makes him broken.

It's not.

People forgot that MK has more than one broken move.

 

[da K.I.D.]

A ban on Meta Knight should be contingent on two questions and the answers to them:
1.) Does Meta Knight have any match-ups that are not advantageous to him?
2.) Can his non-advantageous match-ups reliably stand a chance against him?

Here are the answers, as far as I grok the current metagame...

1- Meta Knight has several effectively neutral match-ups (anywhere from 45:55 to 55:45). I believe that they are Yoshi and maybe Snake or Donkey Kong. (Unsure about the last two...pretty sure DK isn't and Snake is.)

2- Assuming that only Yoshi and Snake are in the equation, yes. Snake's attacks have the ludicrous phantom hitboxes, and his power is clearly enough to take out Meta Knight early.
Yoshi has the grab-release-upwards smash and the grab-release-spike chains that he can pull on Meta Knight. If the Yoshi is competent and grabs Meta Knight, it's game over for that stock.


If Meta Knight was at a clear advantage against everyone else, I'd say that he should be banned.
But he's not. Two characters may not be a lot, but it's something standing between him and complete domination.

Ok let me set you straight dude, yoshi MK is not even, you seem to have the misguided notion that yoshi can 0-death MK, I will let you know from personal experience, that that CG at 0% from one side of FD to the other, will not net you any more than 10% damage and a spike attempt, and at 10% we all know a spike will not kill MK, because of his rediculous recovery, which, as a matter of fact, was one of the smaller reasons that we were considering banning him to begin with. and after that whole ordeal goes down MK will go back to his stupid shuttle looping and high priority airials and down smash. match is in MKs favor, the CG alone will never do more than 20 damage, and the MK will have to already be in kill range for that crap to go down anyway

Ussi:

While MK has problems agianst the heavies, anyone telling you that DK is a soft counter is just wrong, he doesn't have the priority to beat MK ever. Snake does and Ike kinda does thats about it.

lol @ ike, hes too slow, he cant even get a move off vs mk, but if he could, yes he would have more range, and therefore priority, than MK but MK goes so fast that it really doesnt matter

 

[Vulcan55]

That's what I did!! =D

Good for you.

I don't think thats what Ussi was getting at. Sure MK is easy to learn but if the best DK gets beat by a guy who has used MK for 2 weeks then the match up isn't very neutral.

First, that only means that MK is easy to learn.
Second, one game does not dictate an entire match-up.

Did Yuna hijack your account? LMFAO

It's possible that there are more than one intelligent persons on this board.

So can we conclude some reasons as to why MK should be banned instead of arguing over semantics and diction?

1-Matchup Analysis

2-MK domination tournament placings. Leading to MK dittos and MK placing top of the top in tournament placings.

1. If you ban him based on match-ups, there are a couple other characters that would fall into the exact same reasoning if MK is gone.

2. Again, as has been stated many times before, this is a sign of popularity.
If 80% of the community mained Pikachu, then most of the tournament results would reflect that. Multiple Pikachus placing high/winning, etc.

 

[Ussi]

Well i know i was just putting it out there that Ike can somewhat deal with MK to some degree, maybe not a degree of victory, but its possible for ike to win if he basically plays the counter/grab game and, um, how does MK approach safely, an Ike charging quick draw on the other side of a flat stage?

if you come over the top he just lets it go and slides away from your attack, any other approach either resets neutral positions or ends with a quick draw to the face.

QD as an Approach = fail, MK will just glide into your pathetic face if you QD.

Ike and MK can go even on stage, its OFFSTAGE that Ike loses badly at. Ike has a 97% of not coming back, against MK, its hard not to get hit off.

 

[Koga]

This makes the faulty assumption that MK's tornado is part of what really makes him broken.

It's not.

where did i say that Tornado is something that could be considred broken? if you read the post i also said that marth can out range MKs A attacks and has a contigency plan for his B attacks, the tornado in particular happens to have the highest priority of said B attacks so it was my example.

The fact that You/your friends/people you've watched Cannot execute that contingency plan to victory doesn't mean MK is broken just that we're not good enough yet. Much like Shiek's Dthrow Chain grab was uber untill we learned Smash DI

 

[Koga]

QD as an Approach = fail, MK will just glide into your pathetic face if you QD.

Ike and MK can go even on stage, its OFFSTAGE that Ike loses badly at. Ike has a 97% of not coming back, against MK, its hard not to get hit off.

why would Ike approach with QD? he just sits there with it fully charged and a glide attack cannot beat it, he waits for you to approach then lets it fly. With mindgames you get past it, but not with straight up game mechanics.

also, ike will never chase MK off the stage, if Ike is off the stage he's probably already lost his stock, if Ike wants to KO MK he'll do it via utilt or well timed usmash or even D smash or even counter, all those could Kill MK at Medium%

 

[3GOD]

I think some thread should be started to establish an objective set of criteria for banning a character (not just Meta Knight).

For example:

A character that meets the following criteria will receive a temporary ban (3 months):

1) On Ankoku's Character Rankings List, the character must be ranked first and have at least twice as many points as the 2nd ranked character.

2) The character must have no clear match-up disadvantages (this is slightly less objective). That is, there should be no match-ups in which the character has a clear disadvantage.

If the above criteria are met on three separate occasions, the character will be permanently banned; that is, the character will receive 2 temporary bans with the 3rd ban being permanent.

 

[salaboB]

where did i say that Tornado is something that could be considred broken? if you read the post i also said that marth can out range MKs A attacks and has a contigency plan for his B attacks, the tornado in particular happens to have the highest priority of said B attacks so it was my example.

The fact that You/your friends/people you've watched Cannot execute that contingency plan to victory doesn't mean MK is broken just that we're not good enough yet. Much like Shiek's Dthrow Chain grab was uber untill we learned Smash DI

You said you'd prove MK wasn't broken because the tornado could be countered. This only proves he's not broken if the tornado is a significant part of what makes him broken. But it's not.

 

[Overswarm]

why would Ike approach with QD? he just sits there with it fully charged and a glide attack cannot beat it, he waits for you to approach then lets it fly. With mindgames you get past it, but not with straight up game mechanics.

also, ike will never chase MK off the stage, if Ike is off the stage he's probably already lost his stock, if Ike wants to KO MK he'll do it via utilt or well timed usmash or even D smash or even counter, all those could Kill MK at Medium%

.....what.

Ike charges over-b.

MK waits.

waits.

waits.

Shield, grab, b-throw or shield d-smash. GG super strat? :\

 

[Ussi]

I think some thread should be started to establish an objective set of criteria for banning a character (not just Meta Knight).

For example:

A character that meets the following criteria will receive a temporary ban (3 months):

1) On Ankoku's Character Rankings List, the character must be ranked first and have at least twice as many points as the 2nd ranked character.

2) The character must have no clear match-up disadvantages (this is slightly less objective). That is, there should be no match-ups in which the character has a clear disadvantage.

If the above criteria are met on three separate occasions, the character will be permanently banned; that is, the character will receive 2 temporary bans with the 3rd ban being permanent.

This is a rational thought, i wonder if it will be given a rational response. From me I say this might be a plan.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

lol @ bad players commenting on how people should handle metaknight

marth and metaknight have about the same range, mk has more in some cases. this isn't marth against kirby. it's metaknight. you can't just tell us to "outrange him" or whatever and be done with it.

good luck countering a good metaknight, or a good player in general. it'll work a few times, but if you just start countering all the b moves, you'll become predictable, and then you'll become punished. besides that, you have no idea when the b attacks are coming. it's not like metaknight is whirling towards from across battlefield.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ok check this:

You cant ban a character because hes too popular and everybody plays him... ok

You cant ban a character because he has no even matches... Thats fine

You cant ban a character because his tornado is overpowered... Ill take that.

You cant ban a character because his recovery is ungimpable and practically untouchable... I dont mind that either.

You cant ban a character because he can gimp everyone in the game hardcore... also fine.

You cant ban a character because he has an A button move, that conclusively has too much range, power and speed... im cool with that.

But can you ban a character when they have every single one of these traits, AND is too small and fast to hit back among even more character traits that make him the best in the game?

I believe you can.

 

[DanGR]

The way I see it, the longer the sbr waits to ban MK, the more people will abandon their mains in hopes of easing the pain of MK. This fights against furthering the metagame of those characters, and rather helps the characters that are already good. This depresses me.

Take for example IC. Why should I bother learning their chaingrabs when MK has a lights-out advantage on them? I've got no reason? I'll pick up Snake, a character that can deal with MK as much as any character right now. (which is exactly what I've done) Yay! more Snake users!

And this VVV

this post

 

[Ussi]

.....what.

Ike charges over-b.

MK waits.

waits.

waits.

Shield, grab, b-throw or shield d-smash. GG super strat? :\

Seriously >_> I'm an Ike main and telling him that it's stupid.

 

[Koga]

You said you'd prove MK wasn't broken because the tornado could be countered. This only proves he's not broken if the tornado is a significant part of what makes him broken. But it's not.

No it provides that the tornado is the only move that marths Normal A moves don't already deal with, and the Counter does, so it covers all bases.

Marths Fair alone can deal with all of MKs strats, Shuttle loop, Fairs, nairs, anything else..... that doesn't even cout the Nair-dolphin smash combo marth has on everyone.

so the tornado is the only move that eats through marths A attacks, but he can counter that so its all good. You just have to be good enough to do it.

Overswarm:

He's not going to let you shield grab, its just a waiting game or a well timed air dodge. its a guessing game, you can't really approach him, if he knows you'll AD then he'll wait, if he knows you'll shield he'll wait some more until your shield goes down...

its not a super strat just an annoying one that can only be beat by mindgames and guessing, not by clever use of character moves

 

[Ussi]

[fail]@Koga: MK only has to Tornado to Ike if he charges QD [/fail]

 

[infomon]

A followup weakness is that Meta Knight has been designed in a weird way. Almost none of his attacks cancel out projectiles. Mach Tornado random fails to cancel out projectiles sometimes.

It's not random; is that what you meant there? I could explain the conditions for the MT to cancel out projectiles if someone wants.... (I'd like to further tactics-against-MK metagame wherever possible :o)

Slow aerial movement? How often is MK HAVING to dodge? Most MK's can play defense by using any aerial attacks, tornado, and sometimes over-B.

Actually, MK's attacks almost universally offer no defense to MK unless you're at close enough range that they are in fact an offense. This is not as true for the rest of the cast. ex. most aerials can destroy Snake's mortar midair, whereas none of MK's can.

Wait, Yuna brought Sarah Palin into this thread?

Holy crap, Sarah Palin has a smashboards account!??

Like I said earlier, if you really want MK banned, bring him to your next tournament. The more MKs, the better.

This is exactly why popularity must not be the reason that MK gets banned. And why it's so bloody important for us to stop the ignorant scrubs from allowing this to happen.

Otherwise, I'll start telling everyone to main Wario to get him banned, just because I don't like him. Scrubby.

Spoiler

Wario is really gross though :-(

While MK has problems agianst the heavies, anyone telling you that DK is a soft counter is just wrong, he doesn't have the priority to beat MK ever. Snake does and Ike kinda does thats about it.

DK doesn't have priority? Whaa? I guess many of his attacks aren't very disjointed, but many priority interactions are governed by the amount of damage that a clashing hitbox would cause to the opponent. Since DK's attacks are powerful, they generally have "more priority" in this sense than other characters.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Good for you.


First, that only means that MK is easy to learn.
Second, one game does not dictate an entire match-up.

Of course it doesn't we should take into acount the best MK's vs mediocre DKs. One game doesn't dictate the entire match up but this game should count as a pretty big part.

It is the highest level of play for DK vs the high level MK. You can't go higher than the best because then you would be the best how ever here the MK already beating its supposed to be soft counter can still get better.

I'll prove that MK isn't that OP:

A correctly spaced Counter by Marth or Ike can break MK out of tornado and they both out range Meta's sword and have relativly equal priorty.

"oh, but its to hard to space that counter"

that just means you need to get better, not that the tech is broken. so qq more

Your way to deal with MK is to use the worst move of 2 characters? Counter doesn't even deal with spacing as you have to get hit in order for it to activate.

Spacing can be counter very easily all MK has to do is take a step forward. Since brawl is such a slow game it isn't very hard to do.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

No it provides that the tornado is the only move that marths Normal A moves don't already deal with, and the Counter does, so it covers all bases.

Marths Fair alone can deal with all of MKs strats, Shuttle loop, Fairs, nairs, anything else..... that doesn't even cout the Nair-dolphin smash combo marth has on everyone.

so the tornado is the only move that eats through marths A attacks, but he can counter that so its all good. You just have to be good enough to do it.

Overswarm:

He's not going to let you shield grab, its just a waiting game or a well timed air dodge. its a guessing game, you can't really approach him, if he knows you'll AD then he'll wait, if he knows you'll shield he'll wait some more until your shield goes down...

its not a super strat just an annoying one that can only be beat by mindgames and guessing, not by clever use of character moves

10

 

[jehonaker]

Ok let me set you straight dude, yoshi MK is not even, you seem to have the misguided notion that yoshi can 0-death MK, I will let you know from personal experience, that that CG at 0% from one side of FD to the other, will not net you any more than 10% damage and a spike attempt, and at 10% we all know a spike will not kill MK, because of his rediculous recovery, which, as a matter of fact, was one of the smaller reasons that we were considering banning him to begin with. and after that whole ordeal goes down MK will go back to his stupid shuttle looping and high priority airials and down smash. match is in MKs favor, the CG alone will never do more than 20 damage, and the MK will have to already be in kill range for that crap to go down anyway


lol @ ike, hes too slow, he cant even get a move off vs mk, but if he could, yes he would have more range, and therefore priority, than MK but MK goes so fast that it really doesnt matter

The chaingrab is inescapable once Meta Knight is at 33%. Sorry, I should've clarified to begin with.

And 33% being the minimum threshold, Yoshi won't have trouble setting up with backwards aerials and Egg Throw to get up to that (16% with backwards aerial, 9% with Egg Throw). Once there, it's effectively a "one-and-done" once the chain gets going. (Upwards smash kills in the 110% range.)

And, not to be rude, but personal experience means little.

 

[Tyser]

I'm actually laughing inside. Some people in this thread could probably be defeated by Sarah Palin in a debate.

Who in the Jesus is Sarah Palin?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

He's not going to let you shield grab, its just a waiting game or a well timed air dodge. its a guessing game, you can't really approach him, if he knows you'll AD then he'll wait, if he knows you'll shield he'll wait some more until your shield goes down...

its not a super strat just an annoying one that can only be beat by mindgames and guessing, not by clever use of character moves

It isn't beat by mind games Its beat by average human reaction. The fastest QD comes out in 45 frames normal humans take .1 seconds to react or 12 frames. The situation you are talking about is the slowest QD which is probably well over a second long. All MK has to do is wait where you'll hit him and shield.

It can be done with lasers it can be done with QD

 

[Koga]

lol @ bad players commenting on how people should handle metaknight

marth and metaknight have about the same range, mk has more in some cases. this isn't marth against kirby. it's metaknight. you can't just tell us to "outrange him" or whatever and be done with it.

good luck countering a good metaknight, or a good player in general. it'll work a few times, but if you just start countering all the b moves, you'll become predictable, and then you'll become punished. besides that, you have no idea when the b attacks are coming. it's not like metaknight is whirling towards from across battlefield.

UGH! /facepalm

First, Marth has far more range than MK on many many moves, ftilt, fsmash, and nair come to mind right off hand, and fair has more priority near the tip than almost anyother arial in the game.


second, on the "good luck at countering a good MK" thats what i mean by YOU need to be a good player with your character too! You need to be good enough to do that. and if you know that you'll be predictable then you know how to mess up your opponents counter to this

remember Falco's SHLs? they were predicatble and you could deal with them, did that make the tactic completely usless? i think tourney results and PC chris will answer that question.

even if you don't know when the B moves are coming you'll be able to react because You'll be that good.


Don't ever say that Somethings to strong when a counter exists just because you or the community for that example, isn't good enough to execute that counter yet. go out and practice untill you can do it in your sleep, thats what pros do, and that's all that matters.

oh and also: a good Marth player won't let MK do all of MKs good strats on him either, chew on that one for a while

 

[Grunt]

Who in the Jesus is Sarah Palin?

I hope you're joking.
You realize Yuna isn't even from the US and knows who the Vice Presidential republican candidate is?

 

[Ussi]

should we mention the M2K combo ;o?

10lulz

 

[salaboB]

oh and also: a good Marth player won't let MK do all of MKs good strats on him either, chew on that one for a while

Do you know something about Marth vs. MK that the entire Marth boards are missing?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

UGH! /facepalm

First, Marth has far more range than MK on many many moves, ftilt, fsmash, and nair come to mind right off hand, and fair has more priority near the tip than almost anyother arial in the game.


second, on the "good luck at countering a good MK" thats what i mean by YOU need to be a good player with your character too! You need to be good enough to do that. and if you know that you'll be predictable then you know how to mess up your opponents counter to this

remember Falco's SHLs? they were predicatble and you could deal with them, did that make the tactic completely usless? i think tourney results and PC chris will answer that question.

even if you don't know when the B moves are coming you'll be able to react because You'll be that good.

Don't ever say that Somethings to strong when a counter exists just because you or the community for that example, isn't good enough to execute that counter yet. go out and practice untill you can do it in your sleep, thats what pros do, and that's all that matters.

oh and also: a good Marth player won't let MK do all of MKs good strats on him either, chew on that one for a while

once again, lol @ bad players telling people how to deal with mk

the community as a whole is too dumb to do a counter whenever mk does anything, got it

 

[Tyser]

I hope you're joking.
You realize Yuna isn't even from the US and knows who the Vice Presidential republican candidate is?

Uhhh, I dont keep up with politics. Theyre boring as Jesus. I only know that Brock Obama is a black dude, I want him to win.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ignore Koga's posts.

 

[Grunt]

Uhhh, I dont keep up with politics. Theyre boring as Jesus. I only know that Brock Obama is a black dude, I want him to win.

>.>
I'm going to leave you with a giant facepalm, and never return to this political discussion again.

go back to whining about MK, please.

 

[Koga]

Of course it doesn't we should take into acount the best MK's vs mediocre DKs. One game doesn't dictate the entire match up but this game should count as a pretty big part.

It is the highest level of play for DK vs the high level MK. You can't go higher than the best because then you would be the best how ever here the MK already beating its supposed to be soft counter can still get better.



Your way to deal with MK is to use the worst move of 2 characters? Counter doesn't even deal with spacing as you have to get hit in order for it to activate.

Spacing can be counter very easily all MK has to do is take a step forward. Since brawl is such a slow game it isn't very hard to do.

Yes counter does deal with spacing:

if you get hit by the tornado you suffer some small hitstun that will knock you out of the counter, however if you space the counter just so, you can get the tornado to hit that small hitbox on the sword of Marth/ike that is sticking out and it will knock MK out of tornado. You have to be airborne when you counter, B sticking makes it easier cause you can kinda do a retreating counter, but you don't have to b stick for it to work