The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Veng]

Like I said in the poll thread, thank the bandwagoners for getting MK banned, also just his broken-ness in general.

People like M2K, who play to win, Honestly winning is fun, but use your character.

Even then hes some what broken and OS made some good points on the SMYN podcast tonight.

 

[M15t3R E]

All you need to know is that MK has no known disadvantaged match-ups or even neutral match-ups. Also, look at Ankoku's character rankings data. MK is the character that wins over 25% of tournaments alone.
Yeah, there'd be a much more even spread of wins for characters if MK was just taken out of the picture.

 

[Veng]

Hey Mr E, I left high voltage, to many ******** members for my smart brain to be engaged in =P

I agree, Meta Knight having nearly 1300 points and the next character behind with 400?

 

[da K.I.D.]

im pretty sure that its closer to 500 but thats just semantics and the point is still highly valid

 

[Genome Squirrel]

this game and its forums is the only game that has given me the feeling of ennui.
nintendo really screwed us fanboys with this. they took a great game and watered it down because of whiners. gave us metaknight who's broken but was nice enough to give us shields which are more broken. at this point i'd recommend we all abandon this debate. whining to TO's would likely be more productive than anything here, but whining turned melee into brawl. i'm gonna lurk twice as hard and demand a ridiculously fast game where everyone has ludicrous 0-death combos throws that kill and no lag and things involving waves and dashing that i don't quite grasp for the sequel.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what the hell is ennui,

and can you please give me your definition of whining

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm going to continue posting these two points below with every new page that comes up until someone finally disproves them.

There are two main points that anti-ban people are currently promoting over and over.

1. Meta Knight is beatable.

No one is saying he isn't beatable. Hell, even Akuma from ST, the archetype of a character that should be banned, is beatable.

Case in point, Akuma is only soft-banned in Japan. That means that the pros have simply decided not to play as Akuma because a character played at that high a level of play would ruin the game. However, this does not stop newbs from coming into tournaments and using Akuma. This happens, and they do well until a pro comes in and decidedly ***** them (I've seen a Balrog [Boxer] absolutely dismantle a scrubby Akuma with only a single direct hit from an air Hadouken out of the entire two rounds).

Point is, Akuma, the one character any decent fighting game player can agree on as a character that should be banned, is actually still used in tournaments in Japan and don't ever get far.

On the other hand, Akuma is not soft-banned in America because there is no concept of "soft-banning" in America. The American spirit is to be competitive, and to be competitive you use the tools you are allowed. In Japan, this is not necessarily the case because the pros are actually mindful of what the metagame needs to be enjoyable, not just competitive.

What does this mean? Meta Knight may be broken to an area near that of Akuma; he is at least miles ahead of many characters in terms of ease of use/risk vs. reward. Meta Knight will probably never be banned in Japan, because Japan has respect amongst the pros for each other (not just because of culture, but also probably because it's just a much smaller community). Meta Knight, if agreed upon to be broken, probably should be banned in America because we don't have such a concept.

And for those who contend that the brokenness of Akuma and his subsequent banning are far more quantifiable than Meta Knight and his ban, your misguided conclusion is based on two factors.

1. Akuma was inserted into a game where there was already a set metagame. People had already developed characters. These characters had their own metagames. There was a tier system already in place. Because of this, it was much easier to tell what a new character would do to the game, in this case, break it. This is also why it was much easier to accept a ban; Akuma was an external factor in everyone's minds, not to mention that he was unlocked rather than already available. Even if people had invested time in Akuma, they had also invested lots of time before in other characters. And since the ban itself came quickly enough, there weren't as many people *****ing about it because they could just go back to their old characters they hadn't abandoned for a long period of time. In the case of Meta Knight, he came with the game, there was no set metagame, thus nothing to compare him to. This is why Meta Knight's brokenness arose much more slowly and is more arguable.
2. Akuma was much more easily comparable to at least two other characters, Ken and Ryu. This not only made it much easier to see how much better than he was than these two characters (not only did he combine Ken's speed with Ryu's strength, but he also had an escape option, an air hadouken, and the most ridiculously powerful super ever), but it was extremely easy to pick him up and play if you were already familiar with a Shoto. This is why people were basically instantly good with Akuma; they already knew how to use his basic functions. On the other hand, Meta Knight works very differently from other Brawl characters, thus his metagame had to develop on its own. Again, this is why it developed slower and the brokenness became apparent much slower.

2. We don't ban things just because people complaing about them.

It's true. But, we have banned things just because it made it less competitive and fun, namely items and stages.

Edrees explains it much better than I do: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=5360

To put it simply from the way Edrees elegantly lays it out, we have banned items in the past just because they made the game less competitive and less fun. Technically, we could have contended with items and made them work, but we chose not to because people didn't want to.

Meta Knight ruins the foundational system of counterpicking in Smash has developed because it negates the need to main any other character but Meta Knight, i.e. it makes it less competitive and fun.

We've banned things, like items, for the very same reasons in the past. In other words, we have a precedent on how we have banned things: they were detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game. It wasn't a matter of personal opinion, because there still were people who consider items to be fun, but rather of the opinion of what people was the best balance of competition and fun. To many, many people, Meta Knight fits those circumstances, and I have yet to see anyone tell me why we should suddenly go back on the precedent we have laid before (unless you would also like items unbanned as well).

And don't say we'll look like scrubs because we've banned Meta Knight. To many other communities, we already look like scrubs because we've banned items and stages. And quite frankly, who gives a **** about other communities? This is our own community, the Smash community. We don't need to care about other communities, let them do what they want, we'll do what we want.

 

[Veng]

I agree, MK is a freaking item. lul.

also considering CoD and halo communitys think were a bunch of pedo nerds...

 

[sschacha]

this is random and will be deleted shortly.
i needed to make a hyperlink real fast.

here

 

[The Real Inferno]

what the hell is ennui,

and can you please give me your definition of whining

Ennui is a feeling of being tired or upset about something from lack of interest.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i am considering proposing to DRaGZ right now...

 

[M15t3R E]

Hey Mr E, I left high voltage, to many ******** members for my smart brain to be engaged in =P

I agree, Meta Knight having nearly 1300 points and the next character behind with 400?

Can you still get on the chat every now and then?

Hey DRaGZ. Who the hell cares about our differing views on camping. Where we stand in this whole MK pro-ban, anti-ban debate is the same. Nice points, btw!

 

[JesiahTEG]

That was a really, really smart post by Dragz. Thanks for that man.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

what the hell is ennui,

and can you please give me your definition of whining

ennui- see above, i don't know why i play brawl, i'm not sure i even like it, or have ever liked it. people never look awesome in action unless they're in an underdog scenario.

whining- generalized, unfounded complaints

 

[salaboB]

If a v3 of this thread starts, DRaGZ's post right there should be the OP.

Genome Squirrel: I doubt it was "whining" that got us Brawl. More, it was probably having a competitive scene and Sakurai going "No the game is supposed to be fun not a contest I'll fix that" (And thus ending up with something that even many casual players turn off a bunch of stages in...)

 

[choknater]

wario is better than marth emblem lord : )

 

[da K.I.D.]

also the majority of people for the ban have a strong highly specific basis for calling for the ban.
i.e. the smart ppl that want the ban, arent whining by your definition

 

[Gindler]

All you need to know is that MK has no known disadvantaged match-ups or even neutral match-ups. Also, look at Ankoku's character rankings data. MK is the character that wins over 25% of tournaments alone.
Yeah, there'd be a much more even spread of wins for characters if MK was just taken out of the picture.

Actually he does have one neutral match-up...

 

[Praxis]

Actually he does have one neutral match-up...

It's not Yoshi. Yoshi's got a GIMMICK- a chaingrab. Good luck landing a grab on a high level MK. At low levels of the metagame it's great, but you are NOT going to be grabbing Mew2King or Azen.

 

[DRaGZ]

Actually he does have one neutral match-up...

Like I have said before, prove it to us in a tournment. Then we can confirm it.

 

[Snakeee]

Actually he does have one neutral match-up...

...Ehem
he has more than one neutral match up though, but Yoshi I think is at least 6/4 Metaknight's favor.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

it might be specific, banning mk is a specific action, but your arguments lack a strong foundation. they can all be argued away. you want equality and i can respect that, but maybe you're just being idealistic and doing it in a smart sounding way.

 

[salaboB]

it might be specific, banning mk is a specific action, but your arguments lack a strong foundation. they can all be argued away. you want equality and i can respect that, but maybe you're just being idealistic and doing it in a smart sounding way.

They can only be argued away individually, to an extent. Looking at them all together they get a great deal harder to just argue away.

 

[Tien2500]

...Ehem
he has more than one neutral match up though, but Yoshi I think is at least 6/4 Metaknight's favor.

I wouldn't call ZSS neutral to MK either if that's what you're getting at. ZSS can effectively counter some of the more common MK tactics but MK has a lot more options than ZSS in most situations.

 

[Mmac]

This is the problem, we can never agree who's Good against MetaKnight. Snake? Nope! DK? Nope! Yoshi? Nope! Bowser? Nope! ZSS? Nope! Snake Again? Nope! Olimar? Nope!

Plus why are we putting so much emphasis on a NEUTRAL Matchup? It's completely silly!

And Praxis, you already went to this road with me before. There's alot more in this matchup than just a Chaingrab, and there's alot more he can do from release. Plus Yoshi has one of the best Grabs in the game, which happens to be one of the best Counter Approaches also. Stop acting like thats the only thing he has in this matchup and the only thing he can use. I can't stress this enough

 

[wangston]

When they mentioned Yoshi in the discussion today everyone laughed. I wonder why? hehe

 

[Mmac]

When they mentioned Yoshi in the discussion today everyone laughed. I wonder why? hehe

Because they know nothing about the matchup at all, nor don't know anything on what he can do, and rather just simply pass it off as a complete joke and make us look like we are completely biased to our character and have no idea what we are talking about, and pass off the stereotype that Yoshi is completely unplayable and wont compete with anyone except those who are "Just as bad" as he is?

 

[Snakeee]

I wouldn't call ZSS neutral to MK either if that's what you're getting at. ZSS can effectively counter some of the more common MK tactics but MK has a lot more options than ZSS in most situations.

I don't think he does honestly. I guess I just have to wait until I defeat a Meta player that everyone knows like M2K until I can really turn some heads to this. I had my chance when I played Omnigamer a while ago, but he beat me in the 3rd round when the time ran out -_-

 

[DRaGZ]

I think you're just really, really good Snakeee. Your record against Meta Knights I think is far more a reflection of your skill than your character.

 

[memphischains]

zoot is the complete opposite of mk in character play style, that could have a lot to do with it also

 

[Genome Squirrel]

They can only be argued away individually, to an extent. Looking at them all together they get a great deal harder to just argue away.

a group of subjective arguments does make for a strong arguements

the truth is metaknight does not win every tourament he's in. look a few pages back to where they posted the results of chu's halloween tourney. you'll see that a metaknight user did not place first despite metaknight being broken, and at the very least i know forte is a strong metaknight. correct me if i'm wrong, but it wasn't a simple coincidence he lost either since he would have to lose 2 out of 3 games two times. if metaknight is so broken why didn't a competent metaknight user take first place.

perhaps everyone has just allowed themselves to become brickwalled by metaknight's range and lagless moves. OOS stuff is as broken as he, and he's forced to approach.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Because they know nothing about the matchup at all, nor don't know anything on what he can do, and rather just simply pass it off as a complete joke and make us look like we are completely biased to our character and have no idea what we are talking about, and pass off the stereotype that Yoshi is completely unplayable and wont compete with anyone except those who are "Just as bad" as he is?

So...they do know something? GAH double negatives.

I told you a long time ago Mmac. If guys like Bwett who go around beasting with Yoshi like he's top tier say he can't be better than 60/40(for MK), then I'm likely to believe him.

 

[Mmac]

I told you a long time ago Mmac. If guys like Bwett who go around beasting with Yoshi like he's top tier say he can't be better than 60/40(for MK), then I'm likely to believe him.

But he also has beaten the majority of MetaKnight's he has faced, and even beaten Dojo's a few times (Before he switched mains (I think he switched mains.... or I heard wrong)). He claims that he only does good because he's very knowledgeable of the matchup, but I think that he's just looking too much on MetaKnights side of it.

 

[Yuna]

About 3s, I play 3s and Yun is not the best. Chun is definitely the best. 3s is also very different from brawl, mostly because it was made to be competitive. All the characters in 3s are fairly balanced, or at least more so than in other fighting games. In SBO Kuroda beat Jwong(Chun) and Ricky Ortiz(Ken) with Q, the lowest tiered character. No one in 3s dominates anywhere close to the level mk does.

That's not what was argued. What was argued was that Yun has absolutely zero bad matchups. Chun-Li has a disadvantageous (60:40, I believe, according to many in this thread an unfairly hard matchup) match-up against Yun. While she has better matchups than Yun in general, it doesn't change the fact that Yun has no disadvantageous matchups while Chun-Li suffers one such against him.

Also, Meta Knight does not enjoy the best matchups in the game, either. He just enjoys no disadvantageous ones. Several other characters, while suffering bad matchups themselves, have better matchups than Meta Knight.

 

[Bwett]

I'm not looking at anyone's side but my own. From my experiences, it is just not in our favor. If we are above MK, we are at a disadvantage. If we are off the stage, we are at a disadvantage. If MK is off the stage, I would say it's neutral. The only other time I see it neutral is if we are at midrange or MK is above us. Either way, I try really hard to do the things I do, while many MK's do not.

Overall, their knockback, speed, and ability to gimp are just far too great for Yoshi to handle. One dair is all it takes. You can't say that about any of Yoshi's moves against MK. Sorry dude, 6:4 MK (I MIGHT say 55:45 but that is really pushing it to my limits)

 

[Natch]

That's not what was argued. What was argued was that Yun has absolutely zero bad matchups. Chun-Li has a disadvantageous (60:40, I believe, according to many in this thread an unfairly hard matchup) match-up against Yun. While she has better matchups than Yun in general, it doesn't change the fact that Yun has no disadvantageous matchups while Chun-Li suffers one such against him.

Also, Meta Knight does not enjoy the best matchups in the game, either. He just enjoys no disadvantageous ones. Several other characters, while suffering bad matchups themselves, have better matchups than Meta Knight.

Yuna, the main issue here is that you do not care about the community, you care about what is logical. You will never be proved wrong, simply because everyone agrees MK is beatable. But that's not why they want him banned.

And yet, whenever someone says "MK is stagnating the metagame," you respond back with "But he's beatable." You make points that are absolute fact that EVERYBODY sans ignorant people agree on, and act as if you've just proven that MK should not be banned.

Which is not the argument they presented. You dismiss their reason because it isn't logical. Yuna, at this point, anyone who believes MK should be banned since he's sucking the fun out of this game will not be convinced by you. Only people who would be are those who are undecided and still think that people want MK banned because they think he's unbeatable. I.E. Those who are ignorant. Also, nobody except ignorant people believe 60:40 is hard. You just automatically assume that the only reason anybody would anyone want MK banned ever is because he's SOOO broken.

And do you know what I find absolutely hilarious on top of all this?

You don't even live here in the United States. You've been here like, once. For only about a month and a half. You haven't paticularly grew up on our culture, how we are here. You've been on the messageboards, sure, but that doesn't really give you an impression of our culture, not really. Posts have no tone, no emotion.

So Yuna, I kindly ask you realize that nobody worth their salt believes MK should be banned STRICTLY because he's broken/overpowered or had 60:40 matchups across the board. You can stay here and correct ignorance, but realize nobody who's not ignorant believes MK should be banned because he's over.


Oh, and as a little bonus: In this post I quoted, all you've talked about are the matchups statistics of certain characters from certain games. You haven't made a single point or inference as to what these mean. And then you go on to talk about MK as if the person in the previous post actually SAID anything about him. Which he didn't.

 

[The Real Inferno]

This is an old post of mine from another topic on Meta I thought I would dredge up for viewing pleasure. Brief tl;dr is that it talks about how Meta Knight will continue to win lots of tournaments whether too broken or not.

The Law of Large Numbers (which states that even though one result will have a larger result in the beginning, towards the end they will begin to even out) is only meant to be applied to statistical averages with randomly varying results, such as rolling a 6-sided die. This isn't quite the same thing as the character choice is affected by variables that aren't of a random nature.

However.

From a sociological standpoint, Meta Knight will continue to win the most tournaments whether he is the best character or not, due to his large number of advantages and popularity. Because fo this, it may not be the best means of determining if he is bannable. Punishing popularity is just weird. Those characters that are (arguably?) "good" against him are nowhere near as popular, thus Meta Knight players who may not even have been of a skill level high enough to achieve success under normal circumstances, recieve an additional advantage in hopefully never having to play a bad matchup in the tournaments they enter, since the statistics are in their favor.

From a more personal standpoint, I believe Snake requires a great deal more time, practice and skill to play as than Meta Knight no matter which is the better character. I think it only makes sense though that in this context, you could quite easily say Meta Knight is the better character since a character that is not only a very powerful choice, but also very easy to pick up should be considered a great buff in his application. (A melee example would be that Fox's abilities in Melee are theoretically unbeatable, but the level of skill required for that is impossible to achieve).

Ending statement, I remain neutral on this discussion and am just adding an old post of mine to the fray for your consideration. I have yet to hear the SBR debate though I do plan to give it a thorough listen as soon as the audio is made available for download.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't think he does honestly. I guess I just have to wait until I defeat a Meta player that everyone knows like M2K until I can really turn some heads to this. I had my chance when I played Omnigamer a while ago, but he beat me in the 3rd round when the time ran out -_-

Well I'm a ZSS main so good luck in your quest and when you figure out how to beat MK tell me. ^_^ (Yes I read your post on the ZSS boards but thats more how to abuse overused MK tactics than how to beat him). I personally think its about a 60/40 here.

 

[Atomsk_92]

I think you're just really, really good Snakeee. Your record against Meta Knights I think is far more a reflection of your skill than your character.

My DDD had a FAR better record then his Zss vs Mks

3-0 with Fourte
1-0 with Omni
1-1 with Shadow
2-1 With Jman


Get ***** Snakeee

 

[Gindler]

It's not Yoshi. Yoshi's got a GIMMICK- a chaingrab. Good luck landing a grab on a high level MK. At low levels of the metagame it's great, but you are NOT going to be grabbing Mew2King or Azen.

Yoshi? nah no way. I was actually talking about MK